2 defaults Egg and Vodaphone - Default hell!!

[SurlyBonds]

Surly bonds,

 

I have just received an interesting letter from NatWest Credit Card Services - who's Litigation agreed in writing to originally agrered to remove a default... which they haven;t done yet.. so I chased them with a letter to customer services.

 

I have received an a reply with a very interesting paragraph;

 

"In accordance with an agreemment set up between the British Bankers Association and the Data Protection Registrar, your detials will remain registered for a period of 6 years from the date of registration. This Areement carries full approval of the Office of Fair Trading."

 

I would love to read a copy of such agreement. Maybe it was done over a round of golf?

 

Neo

 

I've also had an interesting reply from Experian today, citing the same cosy little get together and "industry agreement", which by the way is still NOT a legal statute.

They also claim that with this agreement and the four exclusion paragraphs of the DPA, then can therefore exclude my request.

 

However, I have responded with their own argument citing the very four exclusions that I put in the letter in my Stick thread at the top of this Legalities forum. In particular, their insistence of paragraph 3 as their so-called 'right' to retain the data:

"3. The processing is necessary for compliance with any legal obligation to which the data controller is subject, other than an obligation imposed by contract."

 

My response today has been along the lines of:

Please note that this allows an exclusion if it is in accordance with any "legal obligation".

I went on to say that the legal obligation as far as the civil contract was dead anyway... besides that point that the end of this paragraph expressly exclsude contracts!!!

So, Mr Experian, by your own argument and response, you are relying on legal statute, and I think any judge in England will agree that a letter drawn up after a cosy coffee-and-garibaldi meeting of the financials, does not constitute a "legal oligation", whether or not endorsed by the OFT. Unless the minister for Trade has issued a Statutory Notice to that effect, then an agreement between you all for "industry practice" counts for, basically, zip.

 

I shall await the response, but am preparing a court case to get a decision on this. I'm not bothering with the ICO as it would appear that they are in someone's back pocket.:o

[dayglo]

ok fair enough - it's not the complete transcript.... for some reason it didn't grab it all.... I'm working on it...

[dayglo]

Surly,

I've been thinking about this for the last few days and I can't quite get to the bottom of this issue in my head....

 

If we opt out of automatic processing of our data, then I understand that the data is still there, it just has to be processed manually and there isn't a really the facility within the CRAs to allow this. However, if I apply for credit, there is nearly always a section where, if i wish to continue with the application, I have to tick the box that gives permission for the data to be shared does it not? Does this overule any previous notice I may have given?

 

Also, the bit about 'decision making based soley on the automatic processing of data' wouldn't they just argue that they are not making decisions 'soley' on this basis (but it forms a flamin' great chunk of it!)

[Number6]

Also, the bit about 'decision making based soley on the automatic processing of data' wouldn't they just argue that they are not making decisions 'soley' on this basis (but it forms a flamin' great chunk of it!)

 

I've had this going round in my head for a day or two as well.

 

I'm sure it wouldn't be beyond a legal eagles capability to draft a statement explaining how they (CRA) do not process data "solely" by automated means?? 99.999r% maybe, but not "solely".

 

Pete

[david.m]

BCSB Bulletin No.21, 27 July 2006 Page 1

 

great, but the part i thought people might find interesting at least, was on pages 2 and page 3, could you 8)

[dayglo]

I know!!! for some reason, I can't get my bits and pieces to select anything on pages 2 & 3

[elsinore]

dayglo, my daughter says have you tried reducing the image so that all three pages are in view and then doing your 'bits and pieces'? Or, doing what you did before with page two in view and then page three in view? I'm just the messenger, can you tell?!!

 

BTW I've read it and it's good stuff for us:)

 

Elsinore

[dayglo]

'evein elsinore (or good morning to be accurate!)

yes, I'm afraid I have tried your daughter's suggestion. Without getting all IT and technical, it appears to be a scanned document where page 1 is just the right side of 'OCR readable' and pages 2 & 3 are not. hey - maybe she can have a go?

[MARTIN3030]

Maybe a link to the Bulletin would help.

 

http://www.bankingcode.org.uk/bulletins/Bulletin%2021%2027%20Jul%2006%20PDF%20FINAL.pdf

[dayglo]

hope it's ok to use the

 

http://www.fosm.org.uk/images/page1.gif' alt='page1.gif'>

 

 

there you go.................

[elsinore]

Well done, chaps!

 

dayglo, you lost me when you said OCR readable!!:o

 

Elsinore

[dayglo]

I know i merely confirm my 'geek status' with this post but hey....

 

OCR = Optical Character Recognition. It means a computers ability to 'read' scanned text as real text that you can manipulate and format etc.

[elsinore]

Ah! I see. Got it! (yawn)

 

Elsinore:D

[dayglo]

it's way past my bedtime! good night y'all.

[rogerebaker]

V Quick bit of advice.

 

This thread talks about the bank/ phone company / cancelling the contract .

 

is it the same principle if I cancel my contract with the bank and dispense with their services. Can I insist that they stop processing information.

 

Ive been reading the thread for a couple of hours and its the only point im a little unsure of.

[MARTIN3030]

It works both ways.

Its your data they are processing,so if you gave instructions for them to cease then they would have to comply.

[andrew1]

MArtin, I had a mortgage with Abbey for getting on 17yrs and at the time I took it out there was no requirement for signing up to supply my info to a CRA. They wrote to me about a year ago asking if I would now provide them the authority to share the info with the CRA's and of course I said " of course darlings tell the whole world" ( No I Refused!!). In June this year I changed my mortgage rate with them to a better deal and becaue I changed the mortgage rate effectively taking up a new deal they have for the first time in 20 yrs started sending my details to the CRA's. I couldn't believe it when I read my credit report. I complained and got the usual rhetoric about "well you signed up to say we can now share your data" so it stays.

I didn't have a choice, sign up for the new interest rate and share or don't sign up and pay the higher rates. Or their argument is I 'did' have a choice.

 

Am I at liberty now to write to Abbey Quoting the DPA and get them to stop processing this information?

[andrew1]

Okay Tinkerbelle ... copied to my own thread http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-consumer-issues/23308-hutchinson-3g-help-help.html

 

HUTCHINSON cont.. from Post 62 above...

 

I sent to Hutchinson a Statutory Notice to S 10 & 12 regarding this default registered on a ceased and paid contract. I e mailed the Data Controller and asked them if Hutchinson were controlled by the Consumer Credit Act ( I could therefore submit a CCA request for £1 and wait 12 days) or were they not and I could submit a Data Protection Act request..

Can anyone then tell me how we stand on " copies of the original agreement" issue and where we might stand on this default issue as my son has now got his first time buyer mortgage approved by HSBC having shown them the Stat Notice but having been refused by Nationwide because of this sole default by Hutchinson. He could not get the beneficial rate of interest from Nationwide and it will cost him a further £1150 over 3 years in higher interest charges as a direct result of the default notice.

 

anyway this is what Hutchinson Data Controller said and I need to reply:

 

" With regards your query concerning a copy of your contract. I am not aware of where you bought your phone from, but 3's retailers (3store and 3rd party channel retailers) use an electronic registration process in order to register customers, which creates a "virtual" paperless contract. As such, the contract is made online (in the store or over the phone) by the customer giving all of their details to the store assistance or operator (if concluded on the telephone), selecting their handset/tariff etc and this is all input onto the electronic system. One of the final screens within the in-store registration process asks the customer to click "I accept" to state that all the details they have given are correct and also that they agree to abide by 3's terms and conditions. If a contract is concluded over the phone then the operator will talk through this process and explain the terms to the customer, and ask for the customer's consent, before concluding the sale. At that point the contract between 3 and the customer for the provision of 3's services is made. This is all done online in paperless format and the customer does not physically sign anything as, by clicking "I accept" or confirming acceptance over the phone, they have agreed to enter into a contract with 3. Nothing is printed off in store and therefore there is no "printed" copy of a contract for a customer to gain a copy of.

 

A copy of 3's terms and conditions, which form the basis of the agreement between 3 and its customers, is provided in the customer's handset box, or alternatively copies can be obtained on request or online at http://www.three.co.uk.

 

Our agreements with our pay monthly customers (being running account debtor-creditor-supplier agreements) are not regulated consumer or credit hire agreements under the Consumer Credit Act/Consumer Credit (Exempt Agreements) Order 1989 (Article 3).

 

I note your statement concerning a default being recorded on your credit file. If could provide me with details of your complaint I will raise the matter with our credit risk management team in Glasgow.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

 

Patrick Walshe

Data Protection & Privacy Officer

Hutchison 3G UK Limited

Legal Department

Star House

20 Grenfell Road

Maidenhead

Berks SL6 1EH

[ffocus]

I have a little dilema. I've got a number of things I am chasing at the moment with various companies. But havent been sending registered mail. Does anyone think this is going to be a problem? Could I use my time stamps on my files on my pc if needed.

 

Im just scared im going to raise all my moneyclaim orders then they are going to turn me away and say sorry but we have no proof of any mail.

 

:S

[yellowplum]

You do not require proof of posting for service. As soon as an item is posted it is classed as being served.

 

PART 06 - SERVICE OF DOCUMENTS

 

If the item is posted First Class, then it is deemed served the day after it was posted.

[Number6]

It's always a good idea to send anything important by registered mail. Costs £1 per letter though and I just posted nine today

 

But at least they can't turn round and say they never received it. Might save you the cost of posting an extra letter, phone calls, extra time wasted etc. You simply cannot prove that you posted something without proof of posting certificate or a delivery signature.

 

Pete

[david.m]

I can concur with regards to the banks not yet understanding the Data Protection Act properly.

 

I put Abbey on notice under section 10 (or rather my ex partner did), they ignored it - they HAVE to reply within 21 days or they have commited an offence.

 

I (she) started a moneyclaim for recovery of her overdraft fees - they were threatening default if it were not paid off within 28 days - and included a bit about their breach of the Data Protection Act.

 

Within 30 mins of doing this (of their notification) I (she) received an email from their in-house solicitor, basically writing off the WHOLE debt (not just the part of the debt made up of charges), correcting all credit reference information, and basically saying "please Sir, is there anything else I can do for you. Wash your car perhaps..." rather than go to court.

 

I am very interested in starting a campaign about the banks abusive and monopolistic position with regards to credit reference information.

 

We (BF and I) have talked at length about this and we have some things in the pipeline that I believe you would be interested in, SurlyBonds.

 

I won't say too much at the minute, as things are still in progress, but it's certainly an issue that we've been looking at.

 

I am interested to know though, if you were to effectively take yourself out of the automated searches, theoretically you could be penalised by the searching company, as they would assume that you have something to hide - or am I barking up the wrong tree?

 

hi dave, thanks for this site BTW.

 

could you put up your letter(s) as a template for the readers?, as im sure many people would like to invite their (ex)bank managers round and have our cars washed 8), would we pay them the standard £5 car washing fee though.

[Number6]

i am one step ahead of you here!

i sent all 3 cra the letters and the deadline for all three was today and i had heard nothing!

so sent another reminder letter giving them a further 7 days or further action will be taken!

once i hear will keep you all up to date as i am going to apply for some form of credit and see what happens!

 

Bongobaz, any news to report?

 

Have you had replies from the CRA's? And if so what?

 

The deadline I gave to the CRA's expires tomorrow and I have yet to hear anything.

 

Pete

[ANNALH]

Hi Worcester4x4 and Bongobaz,

 

My deadline for the cra's was yesterday and i had a letter today from Experian basically saying they cannot do what i have requested. It is a 4 page letter!!

It basically says they do not make automated decisions and so they do not have to comply with my request. Also i asked them to remove my defaults and they said no because they are "allowed to keep info on file for 6 years after it has been settled".

They also said the Human Rights Act does not apply to them as they are a private company not a public one.

 

I will read through it a couple more times to get my head around what they are saying.

Anyone got a comeback i can use??

[andrew1]

Hi Worcester4x4 and Bongobaz,

 

 

They also said the Human Rights Act does not apply to them as they are a private company not a public one.

 

 

You mean humans only work in public companies then?