Arrow/evershers CCJ+CO over old MBNA debt

[underdog13]

Why is this site determined to deny members any other access to advice After all anyone who approaches a dodgy firm will soon be told & I assume most of us are adults & subject to the usual caveats people will be able to make up their own minds

 

There are some here who can't or won't be able to deal with their problem & to assume that they can entirely with the help of this site is nonsense. The site is probably denying some of the most vunerable amongs us the opportunity to seek redress

 

Whilst I would never suggest the site should make recommendations I do think there's room for those unable to do it themselves to be directed elsewhere............... the alternative is for the site to offer direct help to those persons

 

That's excatly my position, JonCris - I know I would muck up my case if I represented myself in court, so I will need representation.

 

Question was asked in all innocence - didn't mean to go against CAG rules or upset Car so much!

 

Just thought personal recommendation from a fellow cagger would be better than going in blind on a google search.

 

Message received and understood, though - won't be doing that again!

[underdog13]

Sorry for the unintentional hi-jack, Reggie:)

[car2403]

Yes, but it isn't that simple, UD. Check this little conversation out;

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/198695-validity-claims-management-companies.html

[underdog13]

Thanks Car - I have followed that thread and realise what a minefield we're tromping through!

[reggie76]

Although haven't had much free time I have attempted to move forward with my appeal since my hearing on Wednesday.

 

I called the court who told me I couldn't appeal as the DJ didn't grant permission! I advised that I could raise an appeal with the CJ but basically I seemed to know more than them and that's not much!!

 

Trying to see or speak to a solicitor who is able to help me is a nightmare and I don't have any spare cash to use or especially waste. I really want to appeal but feeling a little frustrated as need specialist help and don't know where to turn.

 

As previously mentioned I don't have much free time as working so hard, aarrrggghhhh I don't know what to do next!!!

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Reggie76!

 

It seems daunting at this stage, but it's not as bad as all that as you work through the stages to get the Appeal underway.

 

This is the bit of CPR you need to start reading:

 

PART 52 - APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

This is the CPR Supplement that goes with the above:

 

PRACTICE DIRECTION 52 – APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

First is to get a Transcript of the Judgement going. That should not be too expensive, maybe £100-£150 approx. You will need that for the Appeal. That needs Form EX107. Here's the link:

 

EX107

 

All that is, is a Form where you state what the Claim was, and say which Transcriber you will like to use. I can recommend a very good one, but I need to advise the name via PM not in open Forum. The person is listed in the Approved List of Court Transcribers and has been very helpful to a few Caggers.

 

Also, get the Court to chase up the Judge to complete Form N460. You do not need to get that, it is one the Judge should've done that straight after the Hearing. He has to do it, so chase him, because he does not have a choice. That Form is simple, and just sets out his reasons for refusing the Appeal. Those reasons may also be mentioned in the Judgment as well.

 

There will be an N24 Order that will appear soon too, that's a bit like a Precis of the Judgment. You'll need that. Should arrive in the next few days anyway.

 

You should be able to get that lot underway in maybe a day or two at most, then you can work on getting your N161 Appellant's Notice ready.

 

The N161 Appellant's Notice is just a Form, many on CAG will help you with that, so don't worry. Here's the link:

 

N161 Appellant's Notice

 

I would also advise, as I think Rhia may have done, that you try and get a Transcript of the rest of the Hearing. That will cost more, maybe £300-£400. But could prove invaluable. It may well reveal other issues you missed on the day.

 

If money is tight, you may be able to get the Transcription Fees back if you quality. See CPR Part 52, 5.17 and 5.18 (that's all in the 2nd link above).

 

That just leaves the key issues of:

 

(1) Grounds for Appeal:

 

This is the main bit that you need to get sorted within the 21 days, and have it ready to go along with your Appeal Bundle.

 

The main initial documents, provided you get it in on time, will comprise the following bits:

 

N161 Appellant's Notice (including Grounds for Appeal)

N24 Order

N460 Reasons for Appeal Refusal

Transcript of Judgment

 

It is VIP that you get that lot in within 21 days. Otherwise you risk having to make an Appeal Out of Time, which is a PITA. Get it in on time, and you then have a further 14 days to follow on with your Appeal Bundle.

 

That Bundle will include your Skeleton Argument and a routine pile of bumf that relates to the Judgment you are Appealing. Mostly docs you had with you the first time around, so the Appeal can be considered for permission to Appeal.

 

(2) Route for Appeal:

 

This is just technical and will depend on what Judge you had, and the class of the Judgment they made. It is all listed in the 2nd link above, or just click here:

 

PRACTICE DIRECTION 52 – APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

OK, don't get too stressed, as this could well be pay back time, and your chance to put right what the buggers did wrong the first time out.

 

Get this right, and the opposition will be more worried than you are right now once they know you are Appealing.

 

The most this will cost you right now is the Judgment Transcription. You can always back out before the 21 day deadline and just accept the original Judgment, so keep going and use the time to decide before the 21 days are up.

 

However, don't waste any time getting going, as 21 days is not long and you cannot afford to waste any of it.

 

Once the Appeal has been lodged, then you have 14 days to get the Skeleton Argument done, which is key, but 2 weeks is a long time.

 

After that, it could take weeks/months to get to Appeal, and in that time you may be able to find the money for a Barrister who will take it over and take the battle back to them. If you win, you will get the original Judgment overturned, and you should get back all of your Costs, both the Appeal, and the original Hearing.

 

A Barrister can later tweak your Appellant's Notice and your Skeleton, so your main aim is to get them in and good enough to get permission to Appeal...the Barrister can make them better later if you end up being able to afford a Barrister down the line.

 

But there is no pressure, this has to be your own decision. It is a tough call, and this next step is not for the feint hearted. Do not be pushed into this, as that is not my intention at all.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[reggie76]

Hello Reggie76!

 

It seems daunting at this stage, but it's not as bad as all that as you work through the stages to get the Appeal underway.

 

This is the bit of CPR you need to start reading:

 

PART 52 - APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

This is the CPR Supplement that goes with the above:

 

PRACTICE DIRECTION 52 – APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

First is to get a Transcript of the Judgement going. That should not be too expensive, maybe £100-£150 approx. You will need that for the Appeal. That needs Form EX107. Here's the link:

 

EX107

 

All that is, is a Form where you state what the Claim was, and say which Transcriber you will like to use. I can recommend a very good one, but I need to advise the name via PM not in open Forum. The person is listed in the Approved List of Court Transcribers and has been very helpful to a few Caggers.

 

Also, get the Court to chase up the Judge to complete Form N460. You do not need to get that, it is one the Judge should've done that straight after the Hearing. He has to do it, so chase him, because he does not have a choice. That Form is simple, and just sets out his reasons for refusing the Appeal. Those reasons may also be mentioned in the Judgment as well.

 

There will be an N24 Order that will appear soon too, that's a bit like a Precis of the Judgment. You'll need that. Should arrive in the next few days anyway.

 

You should be able to get that lot underway in maybe a day or two at most, then you can work on getting your N161 Appellant's Notice ready.

 

The N161 Appellant's Notice is just a Form, many on CAG will help you with that, so don't worry. Here's the link:

 

N161 Appellant's Notice

 

I would also advise, as I think Rhia may have done, that you try and get a Transcript of the rest of the Hearing. That will cost more, maybe £300-£400. But could prove invaluable. It may well reveal other issues you missed on the day.

 

If money is tight, you may be able to get the Transcription Fees back if you quality. See CPR Part 52, 5.17 and 5.18 (that's all in the 2nd link above).

 

That just leaves the key issues of:

 

(1) Grounds for Appeal:

 

This is the main bit that you need to get sorted within the 21 days, and have it ready to go along with your Appeal Bundle.

 

The main initial documents, provided you get it in on time, will comprise the following bits:

 

N161 Appellant's Notice (including Grounds for Appeal)

N24 Order

N460 Reasons for Appeal Refusal

Transcript of Judgment

 

It is VIP that you get that lot in within 21 days. Otherwise you risk having to make an Appeal Out of Time, which is a PITA. Get it in on time, and you then have a further 14 days to follow on with your Appeal Bundle.

 

That Bundle will include your Skeleton Argument and a routine pile of bumf that relates to the Judgment you are Appealing. Mostly docs you had with you the first time around, so the Appeal can be considered for permission to Appeal.

 

(2) Route for Appeal:

 

This is just technical and will depend on what Judge you had, and the class of the Judgment they made. It is all listed in the 2nd link above, or just click here:

 

PRACTICE DIRECTION 52 – APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

OK, don't get too stressed, as this could well be pay back time, and your chance to put right what the buggers did wrong the first time out.

 

Get this right, and the opposition will be more worried than you are right now once they know you are Appealing.

 

The most this will cost you right now is the Judgment Transcription. You can always back out before the 21 day deadline and just accept the original Judgment, so keep going and use the time to decide before the 21 days are up.

 

However, don't waste any time getting going, as 21 days is not long and you cannot afford to waste any of it.

 

Once the Appeal has been lodged, then you have 14 days to get the Skeleton Argument done, which is key, but 2 weeks is a long time.

 

After that, it could take weeks/months to get to Appeal, and in that time you may be able to find the money for a Barrister who will take it over and take the battle back to them. If you win, you will get the original Judgment overturned, and you should get back all of your Costs, both the Appeal, and the original Hearing.

 

A Barrister can later tweak your Appellant's Notice and your Skeleton, so your main aim is to get them in and good enough to get permission to Appeal...the Barrister can make them better later if you end up being able to afford a Barrister down the line.

 

But there is no pressure, this has to be your own decision. It is a tough call, and this next step is not for the feint hearted. Do not be pushed into this, as that is not my intention at all.

 

Cheers,

BRW

 

Awesome, what a response, thanks so much.

[diddydicky]

its in all our interests to get succesful appeals

 

how about we all chip in

 

ill start the ball rolling with a tenner!

[Cornucopia]

Reggie, do you want the name of my barrister? Please do feel free to contact me if you do. It cost us around £2K for his input but we were dealing with a £16K debt which has, because of his input, now gone. Rhia has the same barrister for her case. Obviously I realise that not everybody has the money to do this and actually under ordinary circumstances we wouldn't have done either, we just happened to be a bit flush at the time because my husband had a lucrative work contract. However, without the barrister's input, we would have hopelessly lost. So, you need to think about it.

 

Also, site helper Car2403, I think you were a bit harsh, if I were a new poster, you would have frightened me off, never to have returned again!

 

Let me know if I can be of further help Reggie.

 

Regards,

 

 

Corn x

Edited July 11, 2009 by Cornucopia
Site helper name escaped me momentarily!

[car2403]

Also, site helper Car2403, I think you were a bit harsh, if I were a new poster, you would have frightened me off, never to have returned again!

 

I can't please all the people, all the time.

[Crapstone]

Don't be too hard on Car,

 

We are lucky to have this site and people that care enough to oversee that it is used properly.

 

Reggie, get all the free advice you can and try calling Community Legal Services. You may fall outside their remit but they can pass you onto solicitors that will happily chat and may also provide a few hours work for free. If you don't ask you don't get!

 

I'd start the ball rolling with the FOS for the unfair charges added and the problems you've had. The court hearing shouldn't make a difference to this as it wasn't the specific basis of the case. You'll have to start again with a complaint.

 

Apologies if you've already done this or it was suggested previously.

 

Personally, to pay out more costs and £2000 for a barrister to appeal a £6k debt is not a viable option when the debt has been proven. That's just my opinion and I'm not a quitter but you have to know where to stop and what's best for you.

[reggie76]

Thanks for the feedback from all of you.

 

Corn, I can't afford £2k for a barrister but appreciate the help.

 

My main concern with all this is the fact that I admitted the debt but on the other flip of the coin if the DN was invalid then they had no right to enforce legal action!!

[banker_rhymes_with]

Personally, to pay out more costs and £2000 for a barrister to appeal a £6k debt is not a viable option when the debt has been proven. That's just my opinion and I'm not a quitter but you have to know where to stop and what's best for you.

That is what they rely upon, sadly, and why the system allows so many poor Judgments to slip under the radar at County Court level.

 

99% of Litigant's in Person just cannot take it any further, despite the strength of their Case. Duffer or plain biased Judges know this only too well.

 

Personally, I would fight. But, that would be my decision, and I would do so taking on the risks that go with it.

 

There are no easy answers. An Appeal would risk further costs and Debt but, equally, it can offer a complete solution and a chance to put right a wrong. The one good thing is that the chances of getting a fairer Hearing at Appeal are greater than at County Court level...it's not guaranteed, but at Appeal the focus is on key issues, so the Judge(s) tend to be a little more awake and know the issues are under a more searching spotlight.

 

You may not be able to afford a Barrister right now, but the position may change before your Case gets to Appeal. The 21 Days is just the Deadline to lodge the Appeal...it won't kick off 2 days later. You will have 14 days thereafter to submit your Skeleton, so it's likely that the Appeal won't even be properly looked at for at least 6 weeks from the original Judgment.

 

The first 21 days are the key, blow that Deadline and you are fighting the Appeal as a rear-guard action, plus the Skeleton has to go in straight away if the Appeal is lodged Out of Time.

 

Handled methodically, 21 days is long enough, and the 14 days for the Skeleton is a safe amount of time to get it right. The Appeal will halt the original Judgment, so there will be nothing to pay while the Appeal is running. Obviously, once it all comes to a head, then someone will be paying for the extra costs of the Appeal...all being well, that will not be you. All not being well, that could well be you.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[Rhia]

You can also withdraw at any time.

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello Reggie76!

 

Another point to bear in mind, is that putting forward a well constructed Appeal may well have the effect of making the other side consider a compromise, i.e. to try and stop the Appeal from going ahead.

 

As mentioned earlier, I think, they will not want to see an Appeal go ahead if it looks like they will lose. That could set an inconvenient Precedent, or at least provide others with a persuasive Judgment that would be used against them and other bankers relying upon the fog that is the County Court system.

 

A bit of clarity is not what they want at all, especially if it nails an area that is conveniently lacking in any Case history to support either position.

 

Cheers,

BRW

Edited July 12, 2009 by banker_rhymes_with
Can't Type, or Spell!

[WelshMam2009]

This is the link to the Bar Council's list of public access barristers if it helps.

 

Public Access Directory

 

You can search for your own locality. What I'm not too certain of is the practice area of law to search for?? Any suggestions??

[reggie76]

So do I not have to pay anything towards the debt to the other side whilst I submit my appeal?

Edited July 13, 2009 by reggie76

[Crapstone]

That is what they rely upon, sadly, and why the system allows so many poor Judgments to slip under the radar at County Court level.

 

99% of Litigant's in Person just cannot take it any further, despite the strength of their Case. Duffer or plain biased Judges know this only too well.

 

Personally, I would fight. But, that would be my decision, and I would do so taking on the risks that go with it.

 

There are no easy answers. An Appeal would risk further costs and Debt but, equally, it can offer a complete solution and a chance to put right a wrong. The one good thing is that the chances of getting a fairer Hearing at Appeal are greater than at County Court level...it's not guaranteed, but at Appeal the focus is on key issues, so the Judge(s) tend to be a little more awake and know the issues are under a more searching spotlight.

 

You may not be able to afford a Barrister right now, but the position may change before your Case gets to Appeal. The 21 Days is just the Deadline to lodge the Appeal...it won't kick off 2 days later. You will have 14 days thereafter to submit your Skeleton, so it's likely that the Appeal won't even be properly looked at for at least 6 weeks from the original Judgment.

 

The first 21 days are the key, blow that Deadline and you are fighting the Appeal as a rear-guard action, plus the Skeleton has to go in straight away if the Appeal is lodged Out of Time.

 

Handled methodically, 21 days is long enough, and the 14 days for the Skeleton is a safe amount of time to get it right. The Appeal will halt the original Judgment, so there will be nothing to pay while the Appeal is running. Obviously, once it all comes to a head, then someone will be paying for the extra costs of the Appeal...all being well, that will not be you. All not being well, that could well be you.

 

Cheers,

BRW

 

You are right Banker, it is worth fighting on but the strain can be too much.

 

It could be worth showing that the OP intends to Appeal, with teeth, and then try to settle out of court.

 

Only the OP knows how far they are willing to go and it would be unfair to push them in any direction that they don't feel comfortable with. I think we'd all be in court everyday if we had the means!

 

I want to see people win but I also don't want to see them lose and in a worse position when the debt is relatively small. It's just one of those on the fence situations.

[reggie76]

I'm determined to appeal just need to find the cheapest way of doing it!

[diddydicky]

i thought i read on here a comment that there is the opportunity for you to withdraw up to a certain point

 

why don't you prepare your appeal with the help of the team on here and float it towards them and test out the strength of the oppositionb

 

as had been said they may well be wary of allowing a precedent to be set and seek to settle with you

 

you can then always drop the appeal at the last moment if you cant get someone to take it on

 

as i have said on prev threads before i think it would be a good idea for fellow caggers to chip in towards appeals that will sete aprecedent for the rest of us,

 

500 caggers at 10 quid each would give a fund of 5000

 

my 10 quid is as good as yours if another 499 will follow suit

 

or perhaps 250 x 20 quid!!

[reggie76]

Spoke to two solicitors now this week and they have advised me not to appeal as my chances of winning are slim!

[StayingCalm]

Hi reggie

 

As has been previously stated an Invalid DN should be a complete defence, and as stated by the Judge in my case is FATAL to the claim. (Restons discontinued).

 

The two Solicitors you have seen may not be fully au fait with the CCA1974, so their opinions could be very misleading.

 

Regards

SC

[JonCris]

Yes reggius but what are their skills are they lawyers who fully understand consumer law. Whatever you do don't assume that just because they are solicitors they know more than you - this sort of consumer law was only ever practiced by a handful of specialist lawyers before bank charges became a thing Like many consumers most lawyers are on a fast learning curve

[Crapstone]

I've had a good read back through your thread Reggie and your case is more or less similar to mine. Except that mine was a joint debt and they refused my CCA stating that it was no longer a requirement after a court order but at the same time they admitted to the joint debtor ( not subject to court proceedings) that they had lost theirs and it was no longer enforcable. So I can prove that I have been subject to a CCJ and charging order under joint and several liability but there are no documents that could have been used if I had not acknowledged the debt.

 

I've also spoken to solicitors and they have said it's not worth challenging. Not because I don't have a case but because of it's complexity, potential cost plus the age of the debt. I'm going down a different route now and fingers crossed it just might work so I can turn that to my advantage.

[Crapstone]

Yes reggius but what are their skills are they lawyers who fully understand consumer law. Whatever you do don't assume that just because they are solicitors they know more than you - this sort of consumer law was only ever practiced by a handful of specialist lawyers before bank charges became a thing Like many consumers most lawyers are on a fast learning curve

 

I agree in full. The folks here have dedicated far more time and devotion to consumer law than solicitors could ever hope to do. For all their degrees and diplomas they can only read and moot so much, which generally is not on one subject which only favours the consumer. The law is there to be challenged. It's not static and is almost alive in that it evolves with us.