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In Court this week, Please Help :-(


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In Nov 2007 I sent a cca request to Accucard/Lloyds tsb. They cashed the cheque and ignored my request.

 

I have not had any correspondence what-so-ever until I recently received court papers.

 

In my defence I stated that I had not received a credit agreement or default notice for this alleged debt.

 

Then to my surprise, yesterday morning my postman presented me with a large A4 envelope full of card statements, witness statement and a tiny, illegiable copy of a credit agreement but no copy of any default notice.

 

I am furious that all this has arrived just 2 days before I am due in court and worried sick now as to how I defend this.

The only man who sticks closer to you in adversity than a friend is a creditor.

 

Debt Collection Charges

 

There is no legal basis for a creditor or a debt collection agency acting on its behalf to claim collection costs from a debtor unless there is an express provision in the original agreement.

 

Without such provision, collection charges cannot be demanded as a debt due under the agreement.

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Were there any T&Cs with the bundle?

 

Also, is this the actual hearing or an allocation hearing?

 

Also, did you make provision in your defence for making amendments if and when the requested documents turned up?

Edited by DonkeyB

“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

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They have included copies of the T & C in the bundle these are from when the card changed from accucard to LLoyds.

 

This is the first time in court and I believe that it is the actual hearing.

 

I have just been looking at the paperwork from the court and it clearly states - "Each party must deliver to every other party and to the court office copies of all documents on which that party intends to rely at the hearing no later than fourteen days before the hearing" - Bingo

The only man who sticks closer to you in adversity than a friend is a creditor.

 

Debt Collection Charges

 

There is no legal basis for a creditor or a debt collection agency acting on its behalf to claim collection costs from a debtor unless there is an express provision in the original agreement.

 

Without such provision, collection charges cannot be demanded as a debt due under the agreement.

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Have you had an allocation hearing assigning a track, eg small claims or fast track? Sound like you have.

 

All I'm able to ask you are the big questions - to establish where we're at so a CAG 'Big Hitter' can come in and take control for you - my knowledge is limited, but hopefully we can make a bit of headway on the background to the claim.

 

Can you blank out all the perdonal details and post up the CCA, T&Cs and witness statement? That would really help.

 

I'm afraid ignoring a court's directions in terms of delivery of evidence is frequently done by claimants, and sadly the judges often let them get away with it, so it's better to pull their documentation apart as well.

“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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So, when are you in court ?. Monday, Tuesday ?.

 

I think you will need to explain to the court that this information was only delivered to you yesterday and ask for more time to assess the paperwork and submit an amended defence. TBH, though I dont know how. I have asked for a more experienced site team member to pop in for you.

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PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Good work CitizenB - congrats on promotion to Site Team!

“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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Thank you donkeyB:)

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Just Like To Butt In

Do A Cca Request

Dca Ignores/goes Into Default

 

Down The Line N1 Claim While In Default Oc Cca Request

 

Why Does The Judge Just Not Throw Out The Claim

 

While In Default Of Cca Request, No Enforcement Action Can Take Place.

An N1 Claim Is Enforcement

 

Dont Want To Go Off Topic But Relevent

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DonkeyB - There has been an allocation hearing and this is small claims.

 

CitizenB - I received all the paperwork on Saturday morning which was posted by them on the 19th. The hearing is tomorrow 23rd.

This is all I have heard from them in a year, except the letters court letters.

 

Not much point in posting the cca because it is very small and totally unreadable - can't even make out any name or address etc.

 

Lots of charges on the statements though and no copy of any default notice.

 

Thanks for your help guys, it is much appreciated.

The only man who sticks closer to you in adversity than a friend is a creditor.

 

Debt Collection Charges

 

There is no legal basis for a creditor or a debt collection agency acting on its behalf to claim collection costs from a debtor unless there is an express provision in the original agreement.

 

Without such provision, collection charges cannot be demanded as a debt due under the agreement.

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I think, given the circumstances, you'll have to make some sort of request to the judge that the case be stayed for a period while you assess the miraculous new evidence. This smells! Hopefully we'll get an expert along soon to advise you what you need to say in court.

“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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Bumping this for some help!

“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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Under Seige

 

I'm afraid this tactic is typical of some solicitors - and as was said above, judges let them get away with it. At this late stage and without sight of the documents, its difficult to advise about a defence.

 

I suggest that you go to court on Tuesday and take with you a copy of the Civil Procedure Rule requiring service of documents 14 days before the hearing, the envelope the documents arrived in, and a copy of your CCA request from 2007. You will have to argue your case that you have not had sufficient time to consult a solicitor and ask for an adjournment.

 

If you get an adjournment, come back and I'm sure CAGers will be able to help.

Arrow Global/MBNA - Discontinued and paid costs

HFO/Morgan Stanley (Barclays) - Discontinued and paid costs

HSBC - Discontinued and paid costs

Nationwide - Ran for cover of stay pending OFT case 3 yrs ago

RBS/Mint - Nothing for 4 yrs after S78 request

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Thank you very much for your help, I will ask for an adjournment and post back on this thread.

The only man who sticks closer to you in adversity than a friend is a creditor.

 

Debt Collection Charges

 

There is no legal basis for a creditor or a debt collection agency acting on its behalf to claim collection costs from a debtor unless there is an express provision in the original agreement.

 

Without such provision, collection charges cannot be demanded as a debt due under the agreement.

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Good luck.Let us know how you get on.

“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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Well, I just got back from court - What a load of s**te!!

 

I asked for the hearing to be adjourned, but the judges words were - "well were here now so lets get on with it"

 

The claimant admitted that the only copy of any credit agreement they had was rather blurred, showed it to the judge who confirmed that it was uninteligable!

 

But because I had been making payments until the end of 2007 he ruled in the claimants favour!

 

I can't believe it, I'm gutted! So what is the point of the consumer credit act and civil procedure rules if a judge can totally ignore them?

 

Damn - i'm so mad! :mad::mad::mad:

 

I also commented on the large amount of charges on the statements but the judge still ruled for the full amount plus costs.

 

Is there any way I can appeal this, because it seems rather unfair. It was quite apparent that the judge had it in for me (no idea why, i'm a nice bloke!)

The only man who sticks closer to you in adversity than a friend is a creditor.

 

Debt Collection Charges

 

There is no legal basis for a creditor or a debt collection agency acting on its behalf to claim collection costs from a debtor unless there is an express provision in the original agreement.

 

Without such provision, collection charges cannot be demanded as a debt due under the agreement.

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You have to appeal this, for the very reasons you've mentioned.

 

As I said earlier...

 

"I'm afraid ignoring a court's directions in terms of delivery of evidence is frequently done by claimants, and sadly the judges often let them get away with it, so it's better to pull their documentation apart as well."

 

Sadly, the establishment has cheated the small man again and gotten away with it - so far.

 

We need an expert along here to help you through the appeal process. The fact that you had been paying is largely irrelevant.

“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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The more I think about it, the angrier I get. What is this judge saying - that a company does not have to provide a credit agreement?

 

another thing that really naffed me off was that on 2 separate occasions I had to remind the judge that I was "just a normal member of the public" as he was talking to me like I was some sort of seasoned solicitor!

 

What is clear is that the judge thought that I was trying to pull a fast one and acted towards me with utter contempt.

 

How do I appeal? What does it cost and would I see a different judge?

The only man who sticks closer to you in adversity than a friend is a creditor.

 

Debt Collection Charges

 

There is no legal basis for a creditor or a debt collection agency acting on its behalf to claim collection costs from a debtor unless there is an express provision in the original agreement.

 

Without such provision, collection charges cannot be demanded as a debt due under the agreement.

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The more I think about it, the angrier I get. What is this judge saying - that a company does not have to provide a credit agreement?

 

another thing that really naffed me off was that on 2 separate occasions I had to remind the judge that I was "just a normal member of the public" as he was talking to me like I was some sort of seasoned solicitor!

 

What is clear is that the judge thought that I was trying to pull a fast one and acted towards me with utter contempt.

 

How do I appeal?

 

Form N244

 

What does it cost

 

£75

 

and would I see a different judge?

 

Pot luck.

 

Chill for now and get scanning so CAG can go through stuff with you. What you want to avoid is paying them anything which will make it seem that you admit the debt, while at the same time, you really need to get a set-aside in place before they go for a Charging Order stemming from the ill-gotten CCJ.

 

One thing that does need mentioning is that the fact that you were paying up until relatively recently does make it a sticky wicket. That said, it's not nessesarily all over yet.

For instance, how old is the "agreement" and were they awarded interest?

What form of "agreement" did they produce in court?

 

Also, re-read what others said from prior to you going to court - its all even more relevent now...

 

As they've apparently got an "agreement" start with something easy and cheap: A request under the CCA - I'll find one and post back if you dont get pointed at one first. That will give them 14 days to worry that you'll not lie down nicely, and starts you down the legal road calling a default on the account and not paying or them add interest etc. while its sorted out.

 

All of which is a big "possibly" depending on lots of factors. The important thing is avoiding a Charge on your home if possible, even if thats not the end of the world.

Edited by Last of the Mohicans

In knowledge lies wisdom

 

Mo - not even a bar-stool lawyer, but I'll help where I can...

 

 

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CCA REQUEST:

 

 

 

------------------------------

You

Your Address

 

The Loan Company

Company House,

Church Street,

Newtown,

Kent,

R1 7HG

 

Date

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re:− Account/Reference Number 4563210025897412

 

This letter is a formal request pursuant to s.77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I require you to provide me with a true copy of the credit agreement relating to the above account, together with any other documentation the Act requires you to provide.

 

I expect you to comply fully and properly with this request, within the statutory time limit. You are reminded that should you fail to comply with my request, the provisions of s.77 will apply.

 

If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA 1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties.

 

Your attention is drawn to ss.5(2), 3(b),6 and 7 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR).

 

I enclose a postal order in the sum of £1.00, which is the statutory fee. Note that these funds are not to be used for any other purpose.

 

If you are unable to comply fully and properly with this request, you should confirm this in writing at the earliest opportunity, and certainly within the statutory time limit for compliance, and return the fee.

 

We look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

Mr A N Other

-----------------------------

 

Either sign a strange signature over the text of your printed name or print your name. The postal order is so you dont have to give them your real signature. How would you feel if they turn up with a document with your Mickey Mouse siggie on ... ;)

 

Send recorded delivery (currently £1.08 with free web check available)

In knowledge lies wisdom

 

Mo - not even a bar-stool lawyer, but I'll help where I can...

 

 

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I'm so sorry to hear of the appalling deal you got in court today, Under Siege. The judge was clearly prejudiced and seems to have made his mind up before hearing any evidence:mad:

 

Wishing you the very best of luck with the appeal.:)

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Well, I just got back from court - What a load of s**te!!

 

I asked for the hearing to be adjourned, but the judges words were - "well were here now so lets get on with it"

 

The claimant admitted that the only copy of any credit agreement they had was rather blurred, showed it to the judge who confirmed that it was uninteligable!

 

But because I had been making payments until the end of 2007 he ruled in the claimants favour!

 

I can't believe it, I'm gutted! So what is the point of the consumer credit act and civil procedure rules if a judge can totally ignore them?

 

Damn - i'm so mad! :mad::mad::mad:

 

I also commented on the large amount of charges on the statements but the judge still ruled for the full amount plus costs.

 

Is there any way I can appeal this, because it seems rather unfair. It was quite apparent that the judge had it in for me (no idea why, i'm a nice bloke!)

 

did you tell him that CCA1974 states the agreement has to be legible with all prescribed terms.

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I am so sorry to hear this. :(

 

I will try and find some information that might help. It wont be until tomorrow now. But I think you should look at appealing. :)

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy - HERE

2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Just lately we are hearing more and more of these Js who are not prerared to listen.

What is the answer to " you have been paying so you owe " is it " i need to see the agreement that i am being taken to court over"

Sorry to hear what happened to you but i am sure you have a case and next time you will be prepared for the un expected which can always happen if you get a duff judge. Good luck will be watching

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U S

 

This kind of treatmet of a litigant in person makes my blood boil. To add insult to injury often such treatment is dished out by a 'Deputy' in other words a part time old duffer who doesn't know the law.

 

Chill out for a day or so and then file an appeal. Don't bother writing to the creditor for a further copy. They have used the one they have produced so that is the one to attack in an appeal.

 

Any chance you can post up the particulars of claim together with any defence you put into court without any identifying details?

Arrow Global/MBNA - Discontinued and paid costs

HFO/Morgan Stanley (Barclays) - Discontinued and paid costs

HSBC - Discontinued and paid costs

Nationwide - Ran for cover of stay pending OFT case 3 yrs ago

RBS/Mint - Nothing for 4 yrs after S78 request

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Bumping this for help re an appeal

“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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