In Court this week, Please Help :-(

[Under Siege]

In Nov 2007 I sent a cca request to Accucard/Lloyds tsb. They cashed the cheque and ignored my request.

 

I have not had any correspondence what-so-ever until I recently received court papers.

 

In my defence I stated that I had not received a credit agreement or default notice for this alleged debt.

 

Then to my surprise, yesterday morning my postman presented me with a large A4 envelope full of card statements, witness statement and a tiny, illegiable copy of a credit agreement but no copy of any default notice.

 

I am furious that all this has arrived just 2 days before I am due in court and worried sick now as to how I defend this.

[DonkeyB]

Were there any T&Cs with the bundle?

 

Also, is this the actual hearing or an allocation hearing?

 

Also, did you make provision in your defence for making amendments if and when the requested documents turned up?

Edited March 22, 2009 by DonkeyB

[Under Siege]

They have included copies of the T & C in the bundle these are from when the card changed from accucard to LLoyds.

 

This is the first time in court and I believe that it is the actual hearing.

 

I have just been looking at the paperwork from the court and it clearly states - "Each party must deliver to every other party and to the court office copies of all documents on which that party intends to rely at the hearing no later than fourteen days before the hearing" - Bingo

[DonkeyB]

Have you had an allocation hearing assigning a track, eg small claims or fast track? Sound like you have.

 

All I'm able to ask you are the big questions - to establish where we're at so a CAG 'Big Hitter' can come in and take control for you - my knowledge is limited, but hopefully we can make a bit of headway on the background to the claim.

 

Can you blank out all the perdonal details and post up the CCA, T&Cs and witness statement? That would really help.

 

I'm afraid ignoring a court's directions in terms of delivery of evidence is frequently done by claimants, and sadly the judges often let them get away with it, so it's better to pull their documentation apart as well.

[citizenB]

So, when are you in court ?. Monday, Tuesday ?.

 

I think you will need to explain to the court that this information was only delivered to you yesterday and ask for more time to assess the paperwork and submit an amended defence. TBH, though I dont know how. I have asked for a more experienced site team member to pop in for you.

[DonkeyB]

Good work CitizenB - congrats on promotion to Site Team!

[citizenB]

Thank you donkeyB:)

[postggj]

Just Like To Butt In

Do A Cca Request

Dca Ignores/goes Into Default

 

Down The Line N1 Claim While In Default Oc Cca Request

 

Why Does The Judge Just Not Throw Out The Claim

 

While In Default Of Cca Request, No Enforcement Action Can Take Place.

An N1 Claim Is Enforcement

 

Dont Want To Go Off Topic But Relevent

[Under Siege]

DonkeyB - There has been an allocation hearing and this is small claims.

 

CitizenB - I received all the paperwork on Saturday morning which was posted by them on the 19th. The hearing is tomorrow 23rd.

This is all I have heard from them in a year, except the letters court letters.

 

Not much point in posting the cca because it is very small and totally unreadable - can't even make out any name or address etc.

 

Lots of charges on the statements though and no copy of any default notice.

 

Thanks for your help guys, it is much appreciated.

[DonkeyB]

I think, given the circumstances, you'll have to make some sort of request to the judge that the case be stayed for a period while you assess the miraculous new evidence. This smells! Hopefully we'll get an expert along soon to advise you what you need to say in court.

[DonkeyB]

Bumping this for some help!

[Docman]

Under Seige

 

I'm afraid this tactic is typical of some solicitors - and as was said above, judges let them get away with it. At this late stage and without sight of the documents, its difficult to advise about a defence.

 

I suggest that you go to court on Tuesday and take with you a copy of the Civil Procedure Rule requiring service of documents 14 days before the hearing, the envelope the documents arrived in, and a copy of your CCA request from 2007. You will have to argue your case that you have not had sufficient time to consult a solicitor and ask for an adjournment.

 

If you get an adjournment, come back and I'm sure CAGers will be able to help.

[Under Siege]

Thank you very much for your help, I will ask for an adjournment and post back on this thread.

[DonkeyB]

Good luck.Let us know how you get on.

[Under Siege]

Well, I just got back from court - What a load of s**te!!

 

I asked for the hearing to be adjourned, but the judges words were - "well were here now so lets get on with it"

 

The claimant admitted that the only copy of any credit agreement they had was rather blurred, showed it to the judge who confirmed that it was uninteligable!

 

But because I had been making payments until the end of 2007 he ruled in the claimants favour!

 

I can't believe it, I'm gutted! So what is the point of the consumer credit act and civil procedure rules if a judge can totally ignore them?

 

Damn - i'm so mad! :mad:

 

I also commented on the large amount of charges on the statements but the judge still ruled for the full amount plus costs.

 

Is there any way I can appeal this, because it seems rather unfair. It was quite apparent that the judge had it in for me (no idea why, i'm a nice bloke!)

[DonkeyB]

You have to appeal this, for the very reasons you've mentioned.

 

As I said earlier...

 

"I'm afraid ignoring a court's directions in terms of delivery of evidence is frequently done by claimants, and sadly the judges often let them get away with it, so it's better to pull their documentation apart as well."

 

Sadly, the establishment has cheated the small man again and gotten away with it - so far.

 

We need an expert along here to help you through the appeal process. The fact that you had been paying is largely irrelevant.

[Under Siege]

The more I think about it, the angrier I get. What is this judge saying - that a company does not have to provide a credit agreement?

 

another thing that really naffed me off was that on 2 separate occasions I had to remind the judge that I was "just a normal member of the public" as he was talking to me like I was some sort of seasoned solicitor!

 

What is clear is that the judge thought that I was trying to pull a fast one and acted towards me with utter contempt.

 

How do I appeal? What does it cost and would I see a different judge?

[Last of the Mohicans]

The more I think about it, the angrier I get. What is this judge saying - that a company does not have to provide a credit agreement?

 

another thing that really naffed me off was that on 2 separate occasions I had to remind the judge that I was "just a normal member of the public" as he was talking to me like I was some sort of seasoned solicitor!

 

What is clear is that the judge thought that I was trying to pull a fast one and acted towards me with utter contempt.

 

How do I appeal?

 

Form N244

 

What does it cost

 

£75

 

and would I see a different judge?

 

Pot luck.

 

Chill for now and get scanning so CAG can go through stuff with you. What you want to avoid is paying them anything which will make it seem that you admit the debt, while at the same time, you really need to get a set-aside in place before they go for a Charging Order stemming from the ill-gotten CCJ.

 

One thing that does need mentioning is that the fact that you were paying up until relatively recently does make it a sticky wicket. That said, it's not nessesarily all over yet.

For instance, how old is the "agreement" and were they awarded interest?

What form of "agreement" did they produce in court?

 

Also, re-read what others said from prior to you going to court - its all even more relevent now...

 

As they've apparently got an "agreement" start with something easy and cheap: A request under the CCA - I'll find one and post back if you dont get pointed at one first. That will give them 14 days to worry that you'll not lie down nicely, and starts you down the legal road calling a default on the account and not paying or them add interest etc. while its sorted out.

 

All of which is a big "possibly" depending on lots of factors. The important thing is avoiding a Charge on your home if possible, even if thats not the end of the world.

Edited March 23, 2009 by Last of the Mohicans

[Last of the Mohicans]

CCA REQUEST:

 

 

 

------------------------------

You

Your Address

 

The Loan Company

Company House,

Church Street,

Newtown,

Kent,

R1 7HG

 

Date

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re:− Account/Reference Number 4563210025897412

 

This letter is a formal request pursuant to s.77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I require you to provide me with a true copy of the credit agreement relating to the above account, together with any other documentation the Act requires you to provide.

 

I expect you to comply fully and properly with this request, within the statutory time limit. You are reminded that should you fail to comply with my request, the provisions of s.77 will apply.

 

If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA 1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties.

 

Your attention is drawn to ss.5(2), 3(b),6 and 7 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR).

 

I enclose a postal order in the sum of £1.00, which is the statutory fee. Note that these funds are not to be used for any other purpose.

 

If you are unable to comply fully and properly with this request, you should confirm this in writing at the earliest opportunity, and certainly within the statutory time limit for compliance, and return the fee.

 

We look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

Mr A N Other

-----------------------------

 

Either sign a strange signature over the text of your printed name or print your name. The postal order is so you dont have to give them your real signature. How would you feel if they turn up with a document with your Mickey Mouse siggie on ...

 

Send recorded delivery (currently £1.08 with free web check available)

[underdog13]

I'm so sorry to hear of the appalling deal you got in court today, Under Siege. The judge was clearly prejudiced and seems to have made his mind up before hearing any evidence:mad:

 

Wishing you the very best of luck with the appeal.

[humbleman]

Well, I just got back from court - What a load of s**te!!

 

I asked for the hearing to be adjourned, but the judges words were - "well were here now so lets get on with it"

 

The claimant admitted that the only copy of any credit agreement they had was rather blurred, showed it to the judge who confirmed that it was uninteligable!

 

But because I had been making payments until the end of 2007 he ruled in the claimants favour!

 

I can't believe it, I'm gutted! So what is the point of the consumer credit act and civil procedure rules if a judge can totally ignore them?

 

Damn - i'm so mad! :mad:

 

I also commented on the large amount of charges on the statements but the judge still ruled for the full amount plus costs.

 

Is there any way I can appeal this, because it seems rather unfair. It was quite apparent that the judge had it in for me (no idea why, i'm a nice bloke!)

 

did you tell him that CCA1974 states the agreement has to be legible with all prescribed terms.

[citizenB]

I am so sorry to hear this.

 

I will try and find some information that might help. It wont be until tomorrow now. But I think you should look at appealing.

[popeye1]

Just lately we are hearing more and more of these Js who are not prerared to listen.

What is the answer to " you have been paying so you owe " is it " i need to see the agreement that i am being taken to court over"

Sorry to hear what happened to you but i am sure you have a case and next time you will be prepared for the un expected which can always happen if you get a duff judge. Good luck will be watching

[Docman]

U S

 

This kind of treatmet of a litigant in person makes my blood boil. To add insult to injury often such treatment is dished out by a 'Deputy' in other words a part time old duffer who doesn't know the law.

 

Chill out for a day or so and then file an appeal. Don't bother writing to the creditor for a further copy. They have used the one they have produced so that is the one to attack in an appeal.

 

Any chance you can post up the particulars of claim together with any defence you put into court without any identifying details?

[DonkeyB]

Bumping this for help re an appeal