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    • I don't think that you have told us when you bought the car. However, you have referred to a conversation in which they apparently told you that the MOT had been carried out on 11 November so that suggests to me that you bought it after that date. Although it seems as if you are dealing with quite a dodgy crowd, you may as well go through the paces of asserting your proper rights. Because you have discovered this issue within the first 30 days – you can add to the strength of your position by sending them a letter asserting a right to reject the vehicle under the consumer rights act. If a car manifests a defect within the first 30 days then you are entitled to reject it out of hand with no chance of repair but you must assert your right in writing. Send them a letter immediately – recorded delivery – informing them that you are rejecting the vehicle and telling them on what grounds and say that you are asserting your rights under the consumer rights act. It won't make a whole lot of difference, but later on if you find yourself having to take court action, then it will all help. Please let us know when you have had the AA check. Meanwhile, I suggest that you contact me at our admin email address and let me know the identity of the garage and any other identity clues that you have unearthed. It may enable us to give you additional help
    • Assuming you're correct about the limitation running from the last date of deferral. The last deferral was in 2013 so the statute barring period would end on 31 August 2019, the money claim was made on 3rd June 2019 so is within the limitation period. Therefore the debt is not statute barred.
    • I agree with my site team colleague @slick132 but with variations. These people have been needing you around and cause you serious harm in terms of the amount of effort that you have been put to as well as the damage to your credit file. You have taken all sorts of different stories and also been misled by them as to their statutory obligations in respect of data disclosures. It has taken the issue of court claim to get them to make any move. You have taken control of the situation and it is you who has the whip hand at the moment. They are now proposing to telephone you to discuss the matter in some way – but you have no idea. Also, you have no idea who you are going to be speaking to and whether they have authority to commit Virgin to anything at all. If you agree to this phone call then you are at risk of handing control back to them because they will partly ask you to withdraw the action and they will also offer to make a payment as a "gesture of goodwill". Now that you have attracted their attention and they realise that something needs to be taken seriously, I don't think you should let go of the initiative. Please can you post up the email which you received from them. He was it from and what is that person's role within the company. I think you should write to them and refuse the call and tell them that you are happy to discuss matters that you will want to know what it is they think they have to discuss and who will it be who will be phoning you – and will that person has any authority to make decisions. I think should also emphasise to virgin that they are already in breach of their statutory duty. That if they decide to file a defence that they will have to sign it is a statement of truth subject to a sanction for contempt of court and that as they are clearly in breach of their statutory obligations, it would not be possible for them to sign off such a statement of truth and if they do, then you will bring the whole thing to the attention of the court and invite the court to express their own opinion on the matter. I think it's very important that they tell you in advance what they propose to discuss. I think you should tell them that if they're not prepared to disclose the purpose of their phone call and the points that they intend to cover and if the phone call is not made by somebody at a suitably elevated managerial level, then you are not prepared to discuss the matter. I'm afraid that I'm struck by the naïveté of your statement which I suppose is intended to be assertive.   Haven't we reached a point yet where you understand that you can't trust these people and although you may discuss various things on the telephone, if they then are required to minute the conversation and provide you with the resume of the conversation, you are handing them carte blanche to present the conversation in a way that suits them together with nuances included or removed, and generally slanted in their favour. They might not – but you are certainly opening up the possibilities and if that's what they do, how are you going to counter them and say that they have not correctly recorded what you discussed and agreed? You seem to be doing everything you can to keep on handing the baton back to Virgin. I have no idea why. You should not get involved in any telephone conversation unless you have first read our customer services guide and you are recording the call for your own benefit. If you cannot do this or you are not prepared to do this then don't take the call at all. Please will you post up the email that you have received, let me have your comments on what I've posted here and if you agree we will draft a response. You might like to start. Apparently they are proposing to telephone today and so we need to get a move on. If they happen to telephone before you have received a written reply to your message, then you should simply tell the caller that you are still waiting for their response to the email which you sent a little while earlier and you're not prepared to discuss anything until you have their written reply to that.
    • Well done on getting your refund and thanks for the update. I understand that you are still out of pocket. If you would like to get that money back and we will help you and I think it will be fairly straightforward. The amount of money outstanding is scarcely worth his while causing any trouble. It would be very helpful if you could post up a link to the new advertisement and also do you have any pics of the car and also its registration number please. I think we owe this to possible new owners in case they come to this forum.
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Help with Final Defence Please


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I arrived at the court 30 mins early and noticed a name next to my court entry, so suspected they had a legal rep, and shortly after a young chap introduced himself saying that they had sent me the wrong termination notice and were going to submit another one! Also the differing amounts did not mean much as there was only a few hundred quid difference and as far as the agreement not being correct that did not matter as the judge can rule it as OK.

 

 

I thought from reading around about DN that.........(copied from another thread)

 

A DN once issued, and terminated, cannot be followed by a second DN, as the "agreement" has been terminated, so it follows you cannot default an account which does not exist! So the only DN that could be valid is the FIRST one

 

By when proceedings have commenced the Claimant will have terminated the agreement. The language of a default notice is framed on the basis there is a current agreement. That language is prescribed. If the Claimant terminated the agreement, to deliver an effective default notice will involve the fiction the agreement is current and never terminated. It would also involve the Claimant reinstating unilaterally. The debtor would be unlikely to agree to reinstatement if to do so would cure the Claimant's difficulties.

One good thing appears to be that they are admitting the 1st Default Notice is defective. It therefore follows that by starting Court Action, their client Terminated the Agreement unlawfully, because they had failed to secure a valid Default Notice before doing so. Thus, they are admitting they started Court/Terminated when they were in no position to do so lawfully, having lost all the benefits of s87.

 

That is unlawful rescission of Contract/repudiatory breach of Contract...for which you can ask them for compensation.

 

So basically...If terminated, by whatever method, the account can NEVER be DEFAULTED again, as it NO LONGER EXISTS!

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Hi Mydogwestie,

Thanks for the reply my understanding then is that the termination notice and DN go hand in hand, and have to be carried out correctly before court action is started, in a the new witness statement they state (against my argument about not being given 14 days etc) that the default notice is dated xx july 2009 and the termination notice is dated the xx july 2009 so I did have 14 days notice, but the dates they are using are last month not last year, I have responded in my witness statement " 1) The Defendant denies receiving any amended Default Notice and Termination dated the x July 2009 and the xx July 2009 respectively, the case cannot be resolved by reissuing a valid Default Notice and Termination Notice as I will elaborate on at Trial"

They have sent a copy of the original termination notice (to suposedly replace the one sent in error) but I was never served the "correct" one before court proceedings commenced, further the x 2 copies I now have of the "correct " termination notice are both different, IE different date formats and other points indicating they have been forged by them to cover the mistake.

I hope you can understand what I mean, and thank you most kinddly for your help so far.

Ekim777

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I also stated below in my WS similar to yours.....

 

The Default Notice that the claimant relies on and has submitted to the court is NOT a copy of the original and is an attempt to mislead and confuse both myself and the court. This shows that this document has been altered from the original Default Notice.

By the way, when I got served copies of my supposedly orig DN's I mentioned (which I forgot to post on my day in court come to think of it!!!) that if that was a true copy of the default notice (in my case incorrect acct no's on it) it breaches the Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1561) as it failed to set out the name and a postal address of the creditor or owner as laid out in schedule 2 of the regulations, regulation 2(2) paragraph 2.

 

My copy DN from Restons was missing the MBNA's bits on the top & reg no etc (like the original had) so this meant it had breached the companies act, as it did not bear the companies registered address and registration number on it so was not a representation then.

 

The judge asked the solicitor what he had to say in response to this to which his reply was along the lines of he thought it did have the details on it. The judge then corrected him by telling him it didn't as he had a copy of there DN from me in front of him :lol:

Hope this along with your dates & other misleading info you have been confused by may be something else to add to your defence for you to elaborate on at trial if your DN's are missing this information too.

 

Good luck

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The original DN is the only valid Default Notice.......it matters not what copies or re-creations Arrows solicitors produce in court.

 

MDAW has pointed you in the right direction.

 

Make sure you push Woodchester v Swain.

 

Also, I would advise making 3 copies of anything you are taking to court including your Witness Statement..........we wouldn't want any of your documentation going missing or not being available ;)

 

Have look at this link - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2171582.html

 

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Thank you for the info, my DN does have the wrong account number!

But it is the termination notice that is totally wrong, and they also admit to sending me the wrong one. Which would mean that I was not served a proper one.

 

I am having some dificulty trying to find out what the implications are.

 

Skim

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Termination notice and the implications??? Not sure either unfortunately. Had read on a thread one time this copied bit of information from a thread I kept to hand.

 

The Termination will either be via a letter to say the Agreement or Account has been Terminated or Cancelled or, Termination will be when they do something that is not in keeping with the Agreement still being live; for example, by asking you to repay the whole balance, when before that you only owed Arrears. That means they ask you for both the Arrears and the sums that were otherwise not yet due.

 

For example, say the Balance was 20k and the Arrears 2k. While the Agreement was live, you owed them 2k but 18k was not yet due as the Agreement allowed you to pay that balance off in little chunks stretching out into the future.

 

While the Agreement was live, a sign of this would be demands for just the 2k of Arrears.

 

When you don't pay that, they issue you with a DN asking for 2k or else.

 

You don't Pay but, at that point, the Agreement is still live. You still owe 2k, but you do not, yet, owe the 18k right now.

 

If they write to say it's Terminated/Cancelled, then that is Termination.

 

Or, if after the DN they write to you demanding the full 20k (2k+18k) then that is also Termination, as it means they regard the Agreement has ended.

 

Usually they will do both and will write to Terminate and ask for the 20k at the same time.

 

Or, if they take you to Court and demand 20k on the POC, that too is Termination even if they never sent a Termination letter or demanded 20k before Court.

 

Termination is when which ever of the above happens first. After that, they cannot issue a valid Default Notice to correct a defective one they issued before Termination

So to me its the DN they cannot re-issue - Terminations though seem to come in many a format then? Hopefully Docman / supasnooper /IGNM can throw some light on this? :-?

 

My thoughts are that they have proceeded to terminate your agreement on the back of an invalid misleading & confusing DN and this is going to be the basis of your defence esp if the differing amounts are wrong too therefore the claim for the balance stated will be flawed!

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Your a star! I am very confident in my presentation. I am hoping the caggers "big guns" can input before the court hearing next week

 

Good luck & hope it goes well (and your termination notice query will be answered for you)

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Hi, Went very badly, I lost! The judge simply dismissed all my defence points one by one, and seemed to be actively seeking, any point of argument, from their witness statement that would do, however slight.

 

He upheld the "Agreement" as being allowed Quote "as it did contain some of the points in the CCA 1974", he was not familiar with it the act and when I explained the implications and what was lawfully required by the Claimant, he asked me to show him the relevant part of the Act, IE sections 88 etc. I showed some presendents which he dismissed as not relevant.

 

He awarded them costs and I now owe the full amount again.

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:shock: Sorry to hear your news ekim777 and the judge you had on the day :( yet you had such a duff default notice with incorrect acct no's not even relating to your acct either!! So gutted for you, I really am!

 

What happens now then do you get a CCJ & they get installments at a said amount the judge sets? (had you still been paying them anyway as part of your DMP?)

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Appeal.....

PLEASE NOTE - I am not a legal expert, what is stated is my own opinion and from what I have learnt from this forum and my own experiences.

 

DEBT COLLECTION LETTER/SAR/AGREEMENT TEMPLATES ARE HERE - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?65-legislation

 

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PLEASE NOTE - I am not a legal expert, what is stated is my own opinion and from what I have learnt from this forum and my own experiences.

 

DEBT COLLECTION LETTER/SAR/AGREEMENT TEMPLATES ARE HERE - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?65-legislation

 

IF WE HAVE BEEN HELPFUL -PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE GIVE A DONATION TO HELP US TO CONTINUE HELPING YOU

 

I AM HAPPY TO RECEIVE PM's AND I WILL RESPOND IF I FEEL I CAN ASSIST BUT WHEN YOU DO CAN YOU PLEASE PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD ON WHICH YOU WOULD LIKE ME TO COMMENT - THANK YOU

 

IMPORTANT - If you are sent a private message directing you for advice or support with your issues to another website,this is your choice.

Before you decide,consider the users here who have already offered help and support.

Private message facilities are offered for users to communicate issues that are/or could be seen to be inappropriate for posting on the main forum.Site rules explain this in more detail.

If you are approached by private message with a view to asking you to visit another website,please inform the site team via the report icon.

 

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Its getting really disturbing hearing how many people are loosing cases due to uneducated judges turning a blind eye to the consumer law.

 

Surely these judges should be brought to task, how can they judge a case if they have no idea of the law within it?

 

DB

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ekim

 

Yes you should appeal and in view of

 

Quote "as it did contain some of the points in the CCA 1974", he was not familiar with it the act and when I explained the implications and what was lawfully required by the Claimant, he asked me to show him the relevant part of the Act,

 

make a formal complaint about the District Judge.

 

Its one thing for a DJ to be dim or not to have knowledge of the area of the law on which he is adjudicating but to actually admit to such a lack of knowledge is disgraceful. If the DJ was aware his knowledge of the law was inadequate he should have adjourned the case until a suitably qualified judge was available.

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Hi, Went very badly, I lost! The judge simply dismissed all my defence points one by one, and seemed to be actively seeking, any point of argument, from their witness statement that would do, however slight.

 

He upheld the "Agreement" as being allowed Quote "as it did contain some of the points in the CCA 1974"

 

ekim,

 

What happened when you raised the issue of the notice of assignment - even someone like the judge you got shouldn't be able to overlook that?

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Hi Ekim, Sorry to hear about the atrocious way in which this Judge has abused his position, he is employed by the Judiciary to uphold the letter of the LAW, not run roughshod through it ( The days of the Wild West are well and truly over) . Make an official complaint to the Judiciary and outline every legal point that he ran roughshod over. Talk about Cowboy Builders – I think there should be a TV program called “Cowboy Judges” .

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They admitted sending me the wrong one but submitted another copy with their second witness statement, which he accepted, despite me saying it should not be permitted to switch documents, that present a more favourable case for them. I did not stand an earthly chance and even when I summed up by saying the agreement was fataly flawed and did not conform to the CCA 1974, he asked if I could produce the relevant parts of the CCA 1974, and I only had a copy of section 88. I am seething, especially as they had a solicitors assistant as a rep and all they could say was that I admiited to the claim by paying via the CCCS! we even adjourned for 5 minutes, after a point was raised that I might gain some legal advantage at last, the time was used for them to phone for help.

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I've got to pop out for an hour or so but will be back this evening, is there any point in appealing or complaining, won't I get more of the same? And it is starting to really get me down ATM

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OUr considered view is that you have good grounds for appeal but you have to apply within 28 days.

Steven

 

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An important point I lost sight of in court, when he was totting up the costs, he allowed the full amount of the original claim, I am sure that I have read somewhere that when a agreement is allowed to stand then it is only the interest that can be awarded to them? I can't seem to find any threads that cover this.

 

My thinking was to have it set aside as the amount was wrong, what do you think?

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You are clever ekim777 & must not think like that its just that you had a rotten judge at the end of the day who should not be in the position he was in in the first place! Docman made some true points above in posting 89, you were just unfortunate!:mad: so you must not put yourself down in any way at all!:(

 

If you dont appeal what happens now with it all? Is it a ccj and paying amounts now set by the judge?:confused:

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Well here is another poser. I have notification of them being awarded the summary judgement, but nothing else!

 

No timeline to pay, nothing regarding settlement at all, I am confused

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How bazaar I hope other caggers can throw some light on this for you after all its not something you will want to chase up !!! However if you only have 28days to appeal I wonder if it comes after then in case you did appeal?

 

If you are still in two minds to appeal then if you do, ensure that you argue that it is the law which falls under the court's jurisdiction and not issues of morality.

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