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Business rates bailiff fees - Tomtubby??????


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Hi

 

Hopefully someone can offer some advice here. It is a matter of principle now as bailiffs are just ripping people off. Tomtubby helped me last year, and it is still going on from then, so hopefully she may be able to offer some more advice now????

 

Middle of last year I had a bailiff call for non payment of business rates (around £1300). After the usual discussions, I paid off everything except for one of the bailiffs charges - a £300 enforcement fee. These charges have still not been paid, and now they are coming round to see me again.

 

The charges were made up of:

Walking possession fee £12

Levy fee £62

Enforcement fee £300

Plus various charges for debit card payments.

 

The bailiff visited once, and on that one occassion made the wp, levy and charged the enforcement fee for attending with a van with intention to remove goods. My main problem is the £300 enforcement fee which I have not yet paid. As the bailiff only made one visit, I do not beleive that this is chargeable. Tomtobby says that for a van visit charge, a levy must have been made on a previous visit, as do the national business debtline. Trouble is the bailiff and the council do not agree.

 

I know I will have to pay this £300 to stop them removing goods, but I hope to be able to claim it back. Can this bailiff charge this van fee on a first visit? I have applied to the county court to have a detailed assessment on the fee (as I am exempt from court fees), but they have said they do not do that. I made a form 4 complaint against the bailiff but that was thrown out by the judge saying it is not the bailiffs job to decide on the fees, just collect the money so he was doing his job. The council insists the charge is correct. Everyone else says they cannot charge without a levy first being in place, but that will not stop the bailiff attending. HELP????

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Guest BiG SiD
Everyone else says they cannot charge without a levy first being in place

 

The bailiff has levied in this case, or so it would appear - you have itemised the levy fee...

 

Levy fee £62

 

No you are quite correct a bailiff cannot charge a Van Attendance Fee without a prior levy - they can however (though in admittedly exceptial circumstances - although if happens is usually on Business Rates) charge a levy and Van Attendance Fee in the same visit - though this very seldom done and the walking possession charge would perhaps suggest otherwise, though if they left the goods after deciding not to remove them, would explain why you have been charged it (if signed etc) - Ask them to break down how the costs relate to the visit dates. Are you sure the Enforcement Fee is for the actual same visit as the levy (just double checking!?). NB: they do not have to actually remove the goods to charge the Van/Enforcement Fee.

 

I'm sure you also aware, if a non-limited concern of possibilty of recovery action at home address etc etc.

Edited by BiG SiD
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Thanks bigsid

 

This is for business rates and it was deffo a first visit.

 

The amount the bailiff was going to charge was worked out before he even arrived, as the charges of £374 were printed a sheet he had with him - although not in an itemised form (i got that later from his office). He has charged for a walking possession, levy and enforcement fee all on the first visit. From what you are saying, he can do that then? If so, is £300 a fair charge for a van and half an hour of talking?

 

Am I right in thinking that as the fees were calculated before he even arrived, and that those fees included a walking poss fee, that he never intended to remove goods that day and that the £300 enforcement fee is just to boost his fees?

 

As I understand also, they cannot force entry into my home address, only my business one. Is this correct?

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Guest BiG SiD

hmmm I don't like the sound of this:

 

"The amount the bailiff was going to charge was worked out before he even arrived, as the charges of £374 were printed a sheet he had with him"

 

Many will tell you that a bailiff cannot levy and Van in the same visit. But they can. Whilst this is occasionally done, its usually in situations, mainly with business' where perhaps notification has been recieved of a business about to go bump or the debtor absconding etc. The council will want fast action etc and won't want to let slip, what might be the one and only chance to get the debtor to cough up/get his goods. But in my experience this is far from the norm. If yours was a straight forward situ - I'd be very annoyed (to say the least!!) at getting the Enforcement Fee as well - actually would be interested to know why was charged!! A puzzler...

 

A bailiff does not need walking possession to force entry into a property - if peaceful access was previously gained on a visit. The WP is in effect a signed document to confirm that prior access had been made. So yes in theory the bailiff can enforce to enter your works addy, No it is not transferable to your home address.

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Thanks again.

 

Yes, I am very annoyed with the £300 enforcement fee, hence why I am trying to find out of they can charge it. No evidence of me doing a runner at all, because I intend to be here for a few more years yet!

 

I have asked the bailiff why they have charged it, and all I get is 'that is the agreement they have in the contract with the council, so thats what they charge everyone'. On Tomtubby's advice I applied to the council last year under the freedom of information act to see a copy of this contract, but they refused on the grounds that that contract was currently out to tender and they did not want to release a document which may have an impact on the tendering process.

 

The whole thing just stinks of a great big rip-off to me, but I see no way round paying this extortionate fee.

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Thanks again.

 

Yes, I am very annoyed with the £300 enforcement fee, hence why I am trying to find out of they can charge it. No evidence of me doing a runner at all, because I intend to be here for a few more years yet!

 

I have asked the bailiff why they have charged it, and all I get is 'that is the agreement they have in the contract with the council, so thats what they charge everyone'. On Tomtubby's advice I applied to the council last year under the freedom of information act to see a copy of this contract, but they refused on the grounds that that contract was currently out to tender and they did not want to release a document which may have an impact on the tendering process.

 

The whole thing just stinks of a great big rip-off to me, but I see no way round paying this extortionate fee.

 

 

I do remember this and I am very interested in what you have said on the matter of Detailed Assessment not being allowed.

 

The purpose of the bailiff's first visit is to "levy upon goods"....NOT to remove them. This charge of £300 is really an "attending to remove" fee. There are indeed some firms that charge this "aborted removal fee" but from experience, all firms .....except this one......remove the fee when challenged.

 

On the matter of the local authority refusing to release a copy of the contract...this it utter nonsense and to my mind means that they have something to hide.

 

I would consider three things.

 

First, I would WRITE to the local authority to remind them that they are wholly responsible for ALL actions of their bailiffs and they are also responsible for the levy AND the charges made and ask them to provide you with a list of the agreed charges made with this company for the collection of business rates and that you require this within 7 days ( you should not have to wait 40 days as you have already made your FOI request.

 

Second, you should write to the Local Government Ombudsman to complain at the charges that this local authority are agreeing that their appointed agents can charge and that they are refusing to provide a copy of the contract.

 

Three, you could issue a simple County Court Summons. You really do need to provide the correct wording and quote the relevant statutory ruling for council tax.

 

Finally, if this charge were correct.....which is in doubt....then the statutory regulations provide that a bailiff may only charge "reasonable fees".....£300 is NOT reasonable and we have three recent cases in our office where the courts have said exactly this !!!!

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Thanks Tomtubby - will let you know how I get on!

 

Where you say issue a county court summons, I assume you mean pay the £300 now (they are coming this week) and then claim it back through the courts? Would I issue it against the council or the bailiff company?

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I do remember this and I am very interested in what you have said on the matter of Detailed Assessment not being allowed.

 

Just to pick up on this point, yes. I made the application to my local court, who returned it with a handwritten note saying that this court does not assess bailiff fees (private). So I phoned them up to ask who does, and after speaking to about 5 people, no-one had ever heard of it. No wonder these bailiffs get away with charging what the hell they like, as it appears there is absolutely no way that we can challenge it. Something really does need to be done by government on this sort of thing.

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hmmm I don't like the sound of this:

 

"The amount the bailiff was going to charge was worked out before he even arrived, as the charges of £374 were printed a sheet he had with him"

 

Many will tell you that a bailiff cannot levy and Van in the same visit. But they can. Whilst this is occasionally done, its usually in situations, mainly with business' where perhaps notification has been recieved of a business about to go bump or the debtor absconding etc. The council will want fast action etc and won't want to let slip, what might be the one and only chance to get the debtor to cough up/get his goods. But in my experience this is far from the norm. If yours was a straight forward situ - I'd be very annoyed (to say the least!!) at getting the Enforcement Fee as well - actually would be interested to know why was charged!! A puzzler...

 

A bailiff does not need walking possession to force entry into a property - if peaceful access was previously gained on a visit. The WP is in effect a signed document to confirm that prior access had been made. So yes in theory the bailiff can enforce to enter your works addy, No it is not transferable to your home address.

 

yo sid

 

charging van fees on the levy visit is common as muck with nndr.

 

you can only force entry without a wp if you have gained peacefull entry & then been physically removed. otherwise a wp is required.

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Thanks.

 

I think I can handle this one of two ways. One is to challenge that they can charge the van fee at all on a first visit, or the other is to challenge the amount of £300, and ask them to justify this when you can hire a van for 40 quid a day. I think the easiest way will be to challenge the amount and just pay the £40 I think they MAY be allowed.

 

One point someone may be able to help with, when I spoke to the council last year. someone there said, well they have to cover the cost of the van and having two or three men with them to help move stuff. Is this right. Can they charge the cost of having additional manpower?

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yo sid

 

charging van fees on the levy visit is common as muck with nndr.

 

you can only force entry without a wp if you have gained peacefull entry & then been physically removed. otherwise a wp is required.

 

 

Voxter - does this mean they can charge the van fee of £300?

 

As a business, they gained peaceful entry easily. I have paid everything bar this £300, but they now say they are coming to remove goods whether I am there or not for this £300 fee of theirs. I am willing to pay what I have to, but not a penny more.

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One point someone may be able to help with, when I spoke to the council last year. someone there said, well they have to cover the cost of the van and having two or three men with them to help move stuff. Is this right. Can they charge the cost of having additional manpower?

 

Hi,

 

Can anyone offer some advice on the above?

 

Thanks all

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Yes it's a sort of Hobson's choice, because the bailiffs have already been in and has seized goods, although they are probably acted unlawfully by applying excessive fees -- you're in the unenviable position of having to pay to release those goods.

 

It sounds mad because it is mad, but after you have paid them, and in your case I would use a credit card, you then go after them and the council using the same county court system they used on you. Alternatively, you could always do a section 75 chargeback.

 

Personally, I would do it in the way that TT has suggested.

 

Good luck

Chris.

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