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    • Hi All, before I start I know there are similar threads of the topic I am raising, and each, of course, has its own unique scenario, which may benefit others. My case is as follows: 1. I saw a gumtree ad on the 16th of Oct 2020 for a Mercedes E220 CDI, priced at 7,500 2. I called the seller and said I will come over on the 17th of Oct 2020 to view. 3. On the 17th of Oct 2020 I went to his place where he is working and viewed the car. He is working for a major car rental company. I checked the car and of course asked the normal things to ask e.g. any insurance write-offs, loans, accidents, etc. The seller said the car is clean etc.no loan, he had a loan but all is paid off etc. and he has the papers. 4. I negotiated the car price to 6,800 because the rims were showing some signs of damage, the rear light had a small burst, cosmetics, etc. I checked all but did not see any sign of damage to the car (it's a black car, the car was a bit dirty, and the sun was already setting in) 5. We agreed on 6,800 and decided to purchase the car. We went into his office, where I paid cash, and also got a Car Sales Invoice with all details of the seller, and a V5C green slip 6. I purchased car insurance and drove off. I asked him about Road Tax and he said Road tax is paid so I have not to worry, just need car insurance. 7. On 18th of Oct 2020 I cleaned the car interior because it was really dirty inside - it took me a few hours so decided to clean the exterior the next day 8. On the 19th of Oct 2020 I went to clean the exterior and after the car was clean I noticed some parts were resprayed. I became a bit suspicious; so on the 19th of Oct 2020 in the eve, I went on the internet and run an HPI check. The outcome from the HPI did not show any accidents, insurance write-off but an outstanding Loan with Moneybarn. At this point, I thought maybe the database is not updated, etc. 9. On the 20th of Oct 2020, morning, things were going through my mind; the seller said the car is clean, no issues, no loan since he settled all etc. but the HPI reports say there is still some outstanding loan. So what I did, I called Moneybarn, and explained the situation, and gave them the contract number as well (since it was displayed on the HPI report). They said they will send me a form by email, but they cannot share any information due to Data Protection (GDPR). fair enough I thought, but what made me boil, they said they OWN the car! So, I took the car and drove to the seller where he is working. I confronted him. He said don't worry, I will handle it, he has no time, he is very busy and bla bla bla. I said what reasons do I have to trust you, you lied, and now you say you still have a debt, etc. So I said I will not leave until he has settled the debt, or repay me my money. I also asked what is outstanding, he said around 7,000. Well, since I confronted him at his workplace he may have felt the heat, he assured he will settle all soon, I said sorry, I need a date, so I said you will settle the debt with Moneybarn by 23 Oct 2020, if not, you will refund me my money. He said Ok he will do it, so I said, since I don't trust you, you will sign a piece of paper, and sign it. On the paper, he wrote "I will clear the debt for the Mercedes by Friday" and signed it. I said I am not happy and added the debt details with contract number, and also a clause that if he fails to settle the debt with Moneybarn by Friday the 23rd of Oct 2020, he will refund me my money, 6,800, and sales of the car Mercedes, license plate, will be void. Also, I said to put an initial on each amendment I made with signature. He did, and I left. 10. On 22 Oct I sent him a message, to remind him to settle the debt by Friday 23 Oct 2020 noontime and also I outlined some legal jargon I had to sent that I received from citizensadvice. 11. On 23 Oct, morning time, I received a message from the seller, he said he will not/cannot refund me the money, not to visit him at his office or place, and that he feels threatened by me. 12. Now, the dilemma/headache; a). I received the form from Moneybarn on the 20th of Oct 2020 and I have to send it back within 7 days b). the seller send me a message he will not refund the money c). is the seller holding the title with Moneybarn or did he also buy and not knowing there is an outstanding loan on it d). did he sent the V5C to DVLA since I have the green slip? e). Shall I fill in the form and sent it to Moneybarn? f). If Moneybarn has all my details they may send someone to repossess the car? 13. I decided, I will not undertake anything yet, because my mind said, go there, confront him, park the car in front of the company since I purchased it there and signed all paperwork in their office, they will call the police, the police will come and surely will not do anything but will force me to remove the car and park somewhere else, record all on camera, take all evidence, sent to Moneybarn and at the same time to the seller's employer (when I asked him to sign a letter he will settle the debt by Friday 23rd of Oct 2020, he used a paper of the car rental company, and on the back, the logo of the rental company is displayed clearly and he may have acted on behalf of the company to sell me the car, after all, I don't know if he holds the title with Moneybarn - well, this is an excuse for me to even sue the car rental company, or blacklist him with the company he is working for since it seems he is some type of manager there and he may have acted in the capacity as a sales person to sell the car to me on behalf the company....). 14. So on the 23rd of Oct 2020, I didn't do anything like described under 13....it's not my style as such I called AWH solicitors, explained all, and they said one person is specialized in dealing with such cases and will call me back after studying my case and inform me if it is something they can fight or not. So they will call me Monday the 26th of Oct 2020. I also said I want to go now and confront the seller, but she said better wait till Monday, and if they can fight the case, they will tell me the next course of action - but my funds are limited and cannot afford a lengthy battle, because if no case against Moneybarn means I will have to sue the seller to the court which will cost me. The car has comprehensive insurance and with all this saga I added on the 20th of Oct 2020 also legal insurance on top. Lengthy story, but I am trying to be as detailed as I can, and yes I should have done an HPI before buying the car, but I am from Holland and car sales work there a bit different, and this is my first time I buy from a private seller. Well, once I have sent the form to Moneybarn, I will park the car in a garage, and at this stage, I am renting a room in a house (there is one more tenant). Since I am from Holland, I am planning a trip within 2 weeks to visit my family and I will drive down with the car and in the meanwhile wait if the solicitor can be of any help. I need some advice though, I am still planning to drive down to the seller on Tuesday after I talked with the solicitor, park the car in front of the company, and confront the seller, and try to record all. I will also try to make him sign a letter that I purchased the car in good faith from him (regardless if he holds the title with Moneybarn or not but at least I purchased in good faith from him). Evidence that I have: 1. Car sales invoice 2. Paper that I made him sign 3. Gumtree ad; I could retract this from google history, but the original add removed from gumtree. At least I can show it was advertised 4. I tried to create a history of past owners, total owners including me are 5. It seems the car was also posted on gumtree before by a company in Essex (I saw on google). The reason for doing this, it is very likely that the seller purchased the car from someone else with an outstanding loan. Since then I read a lot on the internet, so please any advice is welcome to pursue my case, I paid a lot and at least I want my money back. Also what I read so far, Moneybarn is not easy to deal with...thanks in advance for any advice I can use for my case.
    • Hi   I think you need to check not just the serial number but what Meter Point Reference Number (MPRN) as the MPRN is what is registered and energy supplier go off as well as the serial number.   So you need to see what the MPRN is as well as the energy supplier it is registered with.   If you look at this Ofgem link: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/consumers/household-gas-and-electricity-guide/connections-and-moving-home/who-my-gas-or-electricity-supplier   In the above link to do this check it gives a link to:   Find My Supplier: https://www.findmysupplier.energy/webapp/index.html (note you may have to complete a captcha, then input your postcode only and click find my address, when the list comes up click on your exact address, you will then see you actual MPRN and the energy supplier linked to your address)   With the above make sure and take the details of the MPRN and the Energy Supplier, better still take a screenshot/pdf the webpage.   Please let use know if on doing the above it matches your current supplier?  
    • I had exactly the same issues.   Grossly over estimated bills from January onwards.  Despite what they claim, they are effectively taking an interest free loan from their customer base to keep the company in business.   They can dress it up how they like.  It’s irrelevant if they reconcile the bills the following month because they just over bill again thus keeping a rolling interest free loan.   it took two months of constant badgering to be finally moved to a fixed DD.   Once that was done I didn’t care how much they over-estimated by.   I had raised a query with the ombudsman over the billing fiasco and they readied a complaint should I wish to proceed.   I thought everything was sorted until May/June whereby I was allegedly more in debt then I was expecting to the tune of an extra months DD.   On querying it, it transpired that even though I was on a fixed monthly DD, because the bill was generated less than 5 days before the DD was due to be taken they didn’t take the DD.   They offered £5 compensation by way of apology but wanted to take two months DD in June.  I told them where to get off.   With appalling customer service,  bills that you need a Maths degree to follow, and I do have one and still struggled, inability to follow through on any agreements, constant gross over-estimation, the missed DD was the final straw and I proceeded with complaint to ombudsman.   Prior to getting to that stage I had to quote Symbio’s own complaints procedure to them to get any sort of response.   Their final offer to me was £25 goodwill and to waive an exit fee. The offer was derisory given the time it had taken to get things sorted and the continuing ineptitude.  Also, the whole thing has dragged on so long (5 months) I was already in the final 49 days of my contract and therefore there were no exit fees to pay and therefore nothing to waive.   Anyway, upshot is, ombudsman found in my favour.  Ordered an apology and a goodwill payment. Symbio appealed but were told the decision stood.   This week I received the goodwill payment.   I promptly left an honest and truthful review on trustpilot.   The next morning I received an email from Symbio with an apology.   This was followed an hour later with an email from trustpilot saying Symbio had replied to the review.  On reading the response they have accused me of not following procedure and of cyber bullying.   The company is a complete joke.
    • why not simply tell you supplier they have the wrong meter number you been paying for usage , and ofcourse you can view this online too so its not as if you'll owe anything you might get a nice surprise and find you are owed a refund.
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CCTV PCN CHALANGE in LONDON - Code 62


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Hi,

 

I have received an PCN on 02/02/2009 for a contravention that happened on 17/04/2008.

 

WHAT HAPPENED:

I have drop-off my girlfriend next to Paddington Train Station. I have pulled over, told here bla...bla...bla, we kissed (you can see her leaning toward me on the CCTV photo), she got off and I drove away.

 

My engine was running all that time, my head lamps were on all the time, my wheels where not even straight because i was going to drive away.

 

After all that time I have received a PCN asking me to pay. (Code 62)

PCNmini.jpg)

 

I have Challenge it using website form:

Dear Madam/Sir

 

This PCN has been issued on 02/02/2009 whilst the date of contravention is 17/04/2008. I believe that this PCN is out of date as councils can serve PCNs up to 28 days after the alleged offence and not over 300 days. This car is not a company car, a hire car or leased and my address has been kept up to date with the DVLA. Further more I was unable to watch the CCTV footage. I have tried to access it more than three times on different dates. When I have tried to download the file I was informed that probably is was out of date and was removed. This is crucial because as far as I remember I did not park on that occasion. There was a second person in the car (which is visible on photos) and will testify before court if necessary. On the photos we are both in the car, lights are on, car is turning right (wheels would be straight if the car was parked). It has been over a year since that situation happened so it makes it more difficult to challenge it for me and ask my witness if she remembers that situation. It is unnecessary delay to deliver the PCN after 300 days as my address has not change since the day of the alleged contravention.

Therefore I am asking to cancel that PCN or otherwise I would like to be provided with CCTV footage as I will be making formal representation.

 

Yours truly,

*************

 

PS. Please use the above address for sending me your reply as I want my friend lawer to deal with this case and I will be away during next 3 weeks. Thank you.

I have received a Notice of Rejection.

 

PAGE 1

Notice_mini.jpg

 

 

 

 

PAGE 2

Notice_mini2.jpg

 

 

I have also received a form to be used for appeal. The problem is they filled the field on the last page and put my Surname with a typo last part shoud be KAJLO and it is KAJILO. They have also ticked the option - ISSUED ON THE STREET and it is a CCTV PCN:

 

LAST PAGE

Appeal.jpg

 

My question is: Do I have any background for appeal? If yes which option I should select out of those 5 they are giving me in above form?

 

Or shall I just pay the reduced £60 fee.

 

My english is not good enought to state everything I want so I am worried I will fail in court.

 

Many thanks for any help and your time.

Anonimowy

Edited by anonimowy
had to add one fact
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You were stopped on the footpath. Not only that, form the photo, your other two wheels were on a cyclepath.

You haven't addressed any of this in your letter.

I don't think that you have any basis for challenging this pcn.

The only country I know where they think that this kind of thing is OK is France

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PCN is well out of date (time expired) is it not ? And the rejection failed to address this point from the appeal. Who would expect that sort of thing from Westminster ? (nearly all of us I expect) If it was me I would be preparing the case for adjudication, expecting Westminster to back down and I would ask fro costs as Westminter have obviously acted wholly unreasonably (and outside statute). Any other opinions ?

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what ?? what makes you say that. have you checked all the legislation ? of course there is such a thing. Check out the Statutory Instrument for reg 10 PCNs The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 No. 3483 also have a look at THE SECRETARY OF STATE’S STATUTORY GUIDANCE TO LOCAL AUTHORITIES ON THE CIVIL ENFORCEMENT OF PARKING CONTRAVENTIONS

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The question is under what grounds shall I appeal as there is not such a thing as out of date PCN notice?

 

What lamma is saying here is that the PCN has not been issued within the legally accepted timeframe. The callenge you would make therefore is on the basis of "procedural impropriatey" i.e. the council have not adhered to the rules governing the issue of PCNs.

 

You were stopped on the footpath. Not only that, form the photo, your other two wheels were on a cyclepath.

You haven't addressed any of this in your letter.

I don't think that you have any basis for challenging this pcn.

The only country I know where they think that this kind of thing is OK is France

 

This post from BankFodder seems to be amazingly unhelpful when there is clearly grounds for appeal!

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Typical Westminster behaviour tbh.

Also typical CAG behaviour also. Would you pay an out of date PCN?

 

Who has said it should be paid?? One person unaware it was out of time said the car was parked in contravention which it was but no one has suggested paying. Maybe you should pop back over to pepipoo if you have nothing contructive to add.

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There are 8 grounds for a appeal of a PCN in westminster, two of them are applicable in this case

 

1. The Traffic Order was invalid i.e. the Council did not comply with the statutory requirements when making the Order.

 

2. There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the Council.

 

Use these as the basis for your appeal in that it has taken a year for the PCN to be issued.

 

Do not challenge it on the basis of i only stopped to drop girlfirend off because the contravention is 2 wheels on the footpath, which you did.

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You were stopped on the footpath. Not only that, form the photo, your other two wheels were on a cyclepath.

You haven't addressed any of this in your letter.

I don't think that you have any basis for challenging this pcn.

The only country I know where they think that this kind of thing is OK is France

 

Who has said it should be paid?? One person unaware it was out of time said the car was parked in contravention which it was but no one has suggested paying. Maybe you should pop back over to pepipoo if you have nothing contructive to add.

 

BankFodder did!

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the applicable dates are in the first line of the first post. flanked by blanks lines for clarity. I though plenty of people here knew the regs well enough to spot the glaring error on the part of Westminster. make sure your appeal includes mention for costs from the outset.

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Lamma, great argumentation supported with specific paragrafs. Thank you.

 

Guys, please.... it is not a competiotion to quote others and spot who said what in his or her previous post. We are looking for facts. We all have to beat the system otherwise they will charge as for walking to fast or to slow. Its a business for them.

 

Lamma, so I will quote this in my appeal:

 

Penalty charge notices — service by post

 

Evidence of contravention

 

6. A penalty charge shall not be imposed except on the basis of—

(a) a record produced by an approved device; or

(b) information given by a civil enforcement officer as to conduct observed by him.

(...)

(...)

10.—(1) An enforcement authority may serve a penalty charge notice by post where—

(...)

(...)

(4) Subject to paragraph (6), a regulation 10 penalty charge notice may not be served later than the expiration of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which, according to a record produced by an approved device, or information given by a civil enforcement officer, the contravention to which the penalty charge notice relates occurred (in these Regulations called “the 28-day period”).

 

What am I quoting? is this a guidence or legal requirements?

 

And I am sorry but do not understand what "costs from the outset" means. Could you explain it using different words? Or is there some standard sentence that I should include in my appeal to ask for it?

 

Big thanks to everybody. I am amazed how fast you guys reply. Great work.

 

Thank you.

Anonimowy

 

PS. Lamma if you need any graphic design help (ie new LOGO) I am more than happy to help you that way as thats something I specialise in. (Free of charge of course)

Edited by anonimowy
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tick the boxes as described above - looks a good quote of the relevant part of the Statutory Instrument (which I linked to). An S.I. is Secondary Legislation. It is called that because of the way it is 'passed' by parliament. from this you may conclude that yes it is the law. also mention you will be claiming for costs as the council has acted "wholly unreasonably" - which they clearly have. they will withdraw, though they may wait until a day or two before the adjudication as they like to wait in case your nerve breaks and you pay up. they play a percentage game even when they know they are clearly in the wrong.

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Personally I wouldn't complete and sign anybody's self imposed declaration form. It rather suggests that you recognise their right to demand it.

 

I note what everybody has said on this and whilst there are already grounds for appeal, I note that the letter dated 22 February from Westminster tries to drag 'the' county court into this, 'the' being the operative word here. 'The' county court? Have we only got one in this country?

 

City of Westminster more than most councils in this country knows that the whole civil parking enforcement by passes the county court system, thus its pointless and vague reference to 'the' county court rather than a specific court, like the Central London County Court situated on it's own doorstep in Park Crescent, Westminster.

 

City of Westminster knows that it should have said the TEC at Northampton County Court, but then City Of Westminster also knowingly employs fraudulent bailiffs such as JBW or the recent bunch who co-ersed the rather stupid Metropolitan Police force into illegally stopping and detaining motorists for the benefit of private bailiffs on Friday February 6 over civil parking issues.

 

The letter of 22 February is notable in that it attempts to seek pecuniary advantage by the fraudulent claim that the recipient will suffer county court enforcement if he does not pay. That is an offence under Section 3 of the Fraud Act 2006.

 

You could report it to the police, if only you had the confidence in same irresponsible idiots who were party to the illegal act of February 6.

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City of Westminster more than most councils in this country knows that the whole civil parking enforcement by passes the county court system, thus its pointless and vague reference to 'the' county court rather than a specific court, like the Central London County Court situated on it's own doorstep in Park Crescent, Westminster.

 

If there is no 'The County Court' how can there be 'the County Court system' or doI I assume you mean through the divorce courts since that is part of the County Court 'system'? The TEC is the County Court just as money claims online is, the divorce courts, the small claims court or any other part of the Courts responsibilities.

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Well actually...... there are around 220 county courts in England and Wales. Not one is listed as being 'THE' county court.

 

I could put my pin in the list if it would help................

 

As for the continually muddled argument about the TEC being a part of the county court system, it was HMCS itself in censuring JBW in a document prepared in February 2008 that spelt out that the TEC was NOT part of the county court system.

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The letter of 22 February is notable in that it attempts to seek pecuniary advantage by the fraudulent claim that the recipient will suffer county court enforcement if he does not pay. That is an offence under Section 3 of the Fraud Act 2006.

 

You could report it to the police, if only you had the confidence in same irresponsible idiots who were party to the illegal act of February 6.

 

I would report it if I knew how to do it and what to say. Unfortunately I don't. I understand that most of you know what to do and what to write. For me constructing an appeal letter is a struggle as I have no idea what to write. I assume that is how they make money. For £60 I won't get the lawyer and I am unable to write it myself. I will try to use some quotes from this thread but won't be abble to add to much myself. I will post here what I am going to put in an appeal. I understand that my chances are very limited to win but am doing it so they have to struggle to get the £120. I will probably choose personal hearing.

 

There is one more thing that nobody has related to. On the last page of the appeal form they ticked the field PCN ISSUED ON THE STREET whilst it was send by POST is that important mistake or irrelevant?

 

Thanks

A

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Well actually...... there are around 220 county courts in England and Wales. Not one is listed as being 'THE' county court.

 

I could put my pin in the list if it would help................

 

As for the continually muddled argument about the TEC being a part of the county court system, it was HMCS itself in censuring JBW in a document prepared in February 2008 that spelt out that the TEC was NOT part of the county court system.

 

got a link ?

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At best I'm not very good at figuring how to pass on links. Far too old. However the information was passed on to me by another forum member and I'm not so sure whether it was in confidence.

 

Let me find out.

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