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    • Hi All, before I start I know there are similar threads of the topic I am raising, and each, of course, has its own unique scenario, which may benefit others. My case is as follows: 1. I saw a gumtree ad on the 16th of Oct 2020 for a Mercedes E220 CDI, priced at 7,500 2. I called the seller and said I will come over on the 17th of Oct 2020 to view. 3. On the 17th of Oct 2020 I went to his place where he is working and viewed the car. He is working for a major car rental company. I checked the car and of course asked the normal things to ask e.g. any insurance write-offs, loans, accidents, etc. The seller said the car is clean etc.no loan, he had a loan but all is paid off etc. and he has the papers. 4. I negotiated the car price to 6,800 because the rims were showing some signs of damage, the rear light had a small burst, cosmetics, etc. I checked all but did not see any sign of damage to the car (it's a black car, the car was a bit dirty, and the sun was already setting in) 5. We agreed on 6,800 and decided to purchase the car. We went into his office, where I paid cash, and also got a Car Sales Invoice with all details of the seller, and a V5C green slip 6. I purchased car insurance and drove off. I asked him about Road Tax and he said Road tax is paid so I have not to worry, just need car insurance. 7. On 18th of Oct 2020 I cleaned the car interior because it was really dirty inside - it took me a few hours so decided to clean the exterior the next day 8. On the 19th of Oct 2020 I went to clean the exterior and after the car was clean I noticed some parts were resprayed. I became a bit suspicious; so on the 19th of Oct 2020 in the eve, I went on the internet and run an HPI check. The outcome from the HPI did not show any accidents, insurance write-off but an outstanding Loan with Moneybarn. At this point, I thought maybe the database is not updated, etc. 9. On the 20th of Oct 2020, morning, things were going through my mind; the seller said the car is clean, no issues, no loan since he settled all etc. but the HPI reports say there is still some outstanding loan. So what I did, I called Moneybarn, and explained the situation, and gave them the contract number as well (since it was displayed on the HPI report). They said they will send me a form by email, but they cannot share any information due to Data Protection (GDPR). fair enough I thought, but what made me boil, they said they OWN the car! So, I took the car and drove to the seller where he is working. I confronted him. He said don't worry, I will handle it, he has no time, he is very busy and bla bla bla. I said what reasons do I have to trust you, you lied, and now you say you still have a debt, etc. So I said I will not leave until he has settled the debt, or repay me my money. I also asked what is outstanding, he said around 7,000. Well, since I confronted him at his workplace he may have felt the heat, he assured he will settle all soon, I said sorry, I need a date, so I said you will settle the debt with Moneybarn by 23 Oct 2020, if not, you will refund me my money. He said Ok he will do it, so I said, since I don't trust you, you will sign a piece of paper, and sign it. On the paper, he wrote "I will clear the debt for the Mercedes by Friday" and signed it. I said I am not happy and added the debt details with contract number, and also a clause that if he fails to settle the debt with Moneybarn by Friday the 23rd of Oct 2020, he will refund me my money, 6,800, and sales of the car Mercedes, license plate, will be void. Also, I said to put an initial on each amendment I made with signature. He did, and I left. 10. On 22 Oct I sent him a message, to remind him to settle the debt by Friday 23 Oct 2020 noontime and also I outlined some legal jargon I had to sent that I received from citizensadvice. 11. On 23 Oct, morning time, I received a message from the seller, he said he will not/cannot refund me the money, not to visit him at his office or place, and that he feels threatened by me. 12. Now, the dilemma/headache; a). I received the form from Moneybarn on the 20th of Oct 2020 and I have to send it back within 7 days b). the seller send me a message he will not refund the money c). is the seller holding the title with Moneybarn or did he also buy and not knowing there is an outstanding loan on it d). did he sent the V5C to DVLA since I have the green slip? e). Shall I fill in the form and sent it to Moneybarn? f). If Moneybarn has all my details they may send someone to repossess the car? 13. I decided, I will not undertake anything yet, because my mind said, go there, confront him, park the car in front of the company since I purchased it there and signed all paperwork in their office, they will call the police, the police will come and surely will not do anything but will force me to remove the car and park somewhere else, record all on camera, take all evidence, sent to Moneybarn and at the same time to the seller's employer (when I asked him to sign a letter he will settle the debt by Friday 23rd of Oct 2020, he used a paper of the car rental company, and on the back, the logo of the rental company is displayed clearly and he may have acted on behalf of the company to sell me the car, after all, I don't know if he holds the title with Moneybarn - well, this is an excuse for me to even sue the car rental company, or blacklist him with the company he is working for since it seems he is some type of manager there and he may have acted in the capacity as a sales person to sell the car to me on behalf the company....). 14. So on the 23rd of Oct 2020, I didn't do anything like described under 13....it's not my style as such I called AWH solicitors, explained all, and they said one person is specialized in dealing with such cases and will call me back after studying my case and inform me if it is something they can fight or not. So they will call me Monday the 26th of Oct 2020. I also said I want to go now and confront the seller, but she said better wait till Monday, and if they can fight the case, they will tell me the next course of action - but my funds are limited and cannot afford a lengthy battle, because if no case against Moneybarn means I will have to sue the seller to the court which will cost me. The car has comprehensive insurance and with all this saga I added on the 20th of Oct 2020 also legal insurance on top. Lengthy story, but I am trying to be as detailed as I can, and yes I should have done an HPI before buying the car, but I am from Holland and car sales work there a bit different, and this is my first time I buy from a private seller. Well, once I have sent the form to Moneybarn, I will park the car in a garage, and at this stage, I am renting a room in a house (there is one more tenant). Since I am from Holland, I am planning a trip within 2 weeks to visit my family and I will drive down with the car and in the meanwhile wait if the solicitor can be of any help. I need some advice though, I am still planning to drive down to the seller on Tuesday after I talked with the solicitor, park the car in front of the company, and confront the seller, and try to record all. I will also try to make him sign a letter that I purchased the car in good faith from him (regardless if he holds the title with Moneybarn or not but at least I purchased in good faith from him). Evidence that I have: 1. Car sales invoice 2. Paper that I made him sign 3. Gumtree ad; I could retract this from google history, but the original add removed from gumtree. At least I can show it was advertised 4. I tried to create a history of past owners, total owners including me are 5. It seems the car was also posted on gumtree before by a company in Essex (I saw on google). The reason for doing this, it is very likely that the seller purchased the car from someone else with an outstanding loan. Since then I read a lot on the internet, so please any advice is welcome to pursue my case, I paid a lot and at least I want my money back. Also what I read so far, Moneybarn is not easy to deal with...thanks in advance for any advice I can use for my case.
    • Hi   I think you need to check not just the serial number but what Meter Point Reference Number (MPRN) as the MPRN is what is registered and energy supplier go off as well as the serial number.   So you need to see what the MPRN is as well as the energy supplier it is registered with.   If you look at this Ofgem link: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/consumers/household-gas-and-electricity-guide/connections-and-moving-home/who-my-gas-or-electricity-supplier   In the above link to do this check it gives a link to:   Find My Supplier: https://www.findmysupplier.energy/webapp/index.html (note you may have to complete a captcha, then input your postcode only and click find my address, when the list comes up click on your exact address, you will then see you actual MPRN and the energy supplier linked to your address)   With the above make sure and take the details of the MPRN and the Energy Supplier, better still take a screenshot/pdf the webpage.   Please let use know if on doing the above it matches your current supplier?  
    • I had exactly the same issues.   Grossly over estimated bills from January onwards.  Despite what they claim, they are effectively taking an interest free loan from their customer base to keep the company in business.   They can dress it up how they like.  It’s irrelevant if they reconcile the bills the following month because they just over bill again thus keeping a rolling interest free loan.   it took two months of constant badgering to be finally moved to a fixed DD.   Once that was done I didn’t care how much they over-estimated by.   I had raised a query with the ombudsman over the billing fiasco and they readied a complaint should I wish to proceed.   I thought everything was sorted until May/June whereby I was allegedly more in debt then I was expecting to the tune of an extra months DD.   On querying it, it transpired that even though I was on a fixed monthly DD, because the bill was generated less than 5 days before the DD was due to be taken they didn’t take the DD.   They offered £5 compensation by way of apology but wanted to take two months DD in June.  I told them where to get off.   With appalling customer service,  bills that you need a Maths degree to follow, and I do have one and still struggled, inability to follow through on any agreements, constant gross over-estimation, the missed DD was the final straw and I proceeded with complaint to ombudsman.   Prior to getting to that stage I had to quote Symbio’s own complaints procedure to them to get any sort of response.   Their final offer to me was £25 goodwill and to waive an exit fee. The offer was derisory given the time it had taken to get things sorted and the continuing ineptitude.  Also, the whole thing has dragged on so long (5 months) I was already in the final 49 days of my contract and therefore there were no exit fees to pay and therefore nothing to waive.   Anyway, upshot is, ombudsman found in my favour.  Ordered an apology and a goodwill payment. Symbio appealed but were told the decision stood.   This week I received the goodwill payment.   I promptly left an honest and truthful review on trustpilot.   The next morning I received an email from Symbio with an apology.   This was followed an hour later with an email from trustpilot saying Symbio had replied to the review.  On reading the response they have accused me of not following procedure and of cyber bullying.   The company is a complete joke.
    • why not simply tell you supplier they have the wrong meter number you been paying for usage , and ofcourse you can view this online too so its not as if you'll owe anything you might get a nice surprise and find you are owed a refund.
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    • I came across this discussion recently and just wanted to give my experience of A Shade Greener that may help others regarding their boiler finance agreement.
       
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      After a summer of discontent with ASG I discovered that if you have paid HALF the agreement or more you can legally return the boiler to them at no cost to yourself. I've just returned mine the feeling is liberating.
       
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    • Dazza a few months ago I discovered a good friend of mine who had ten debts with cards and catalogues which he was slavishly paying off at detriment to his own family quality of life, and I mean hardship, not just absence of second holidays or flat screen TV's.
       
      I wrote to all his creditors asking for supporting documents and not one could provide any material that would allow them to enforce the debt.
       
      As a result he stopped paying and they have been unable to do anything, one even admitted it was unenforceable.
       
      If circumstances have got to the point where you are finding it unmanageable you must ask yourself why you feel the need to pay.  I guarantee you that these companies have built bad debt into their business model and no one over there is losing any sleep over your debt to them!  They will see you as a victim and cash cow and they will be reluctant to discuss final offers, only ways to keep you paying with threats of court action or seizing your assets if you have any.
       
      They are not your friends and you owe them no loyalty or moral duty, that must remain only for yourself and your family.
       
      If it was me I would send them all a CCA request.   I would bet that not one will provide the correct response and you can quite legally stop paying them until such time as they do provide a response.   Even when they do you should check back here as they mostly send dodgy photo copies or generic rubbish that has no connection with your supposed debt.
       
      The money you are paying them should, as far as you are able, be put to a savings account for yourself and as a means of paying of one of these fleecers should they ever manage to get to to the point of a successful court judgement.  After six years they will not be able to start court action and that money will then become yours.
       
      They will of course pursue you for the funds and pass your file around various departments of their business and out to third parties.
       
      Your response is that you should treat it as a hobby.  I have numerous files of correspondence each faithfully organised showing the various letters from different DCA;s , solicitors etc with a mix of threats, inducements and offers.   It is like my stamp collection and I show it to anyone who is interested!
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Interestingly the council is getting more involved in this and some councils are using anpr software to target untaxed cars, and then impound them.

 

An extract from a havering council document

 

Drivers also need to be aware that from the end of September untaxed vehicles may also be removed from private parking areas including shopping precincts and pub car parks.

 

Cllr xxxxxxxx added: "The extension of DVLA removal powers to private car parking areas will give those who do not tax their vehicles, but still continue to use them, something else to think about."

 

 

Now that the council can make revenue from this you will probably see this happening far more often

 

The charges for recovering an untaxed vehicle is:

Within 24 hours of removal - £80, plus a surety of £120 or a valid tax disc. After 24 hours of removal - £160, plus a surety of £120 or a valid tax disc. Storage is charged at £15 per day from the third day after removal.

Opinions are offered in good faith based upon personal experience and research. Before making any irreversible decisions the opinion of a qualified, registered and insured legal professional should be sought.

 

If my advice or information has assisted you in any way - please click my scales.

 

thanks

 

Nat West Charges £1056 WON

RBS Charges £3600 WON

RBS Unenforceable Loan £18500 Pending

RBS PPI on loan above Pending

MBNA Credit Card CCA & SAR Sent

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Fair enough - because it's done properly.

 

Using tax discs as another method to issue unenforceable invoices, or clamp for profit is another kettle of fish.

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As I might have mentioned I hate PPC's and I think clamping is an abomination and all clampers ought to be hung drawn quartered strangled and ,..... (I cant think of anything bad enough)

 

However I do think that a landowner has the right to exclude anyone from his/her property - for whatever reason

 

What I am saying is that I could refuse entry to my carpark to anyone who does not display a valid tax disk.

 

In the absence of standing at the entrance and monitoring the flow of traffic I would be legally allowed to enforce this by whatever means necessary (ie clamping, towing)

 

This would not be contract, but trespass

Arthur and Another v Anker

THE MASTER OF THE ROLLS said that the first ground of defence relied; on was the medieval self-help remedy, adapted to modern conditions, of distress damage feasant whereby if a landowner found property of another causing damage on his land he could seize the offending property and withhold it from its owner until adequate compensation had been tendered for the damage done.

[/Quote]

Smith v Baker and Sons [1891] AC 325, 360), ..a maxim founded on good sense and justice that "One who has invited or assented to an act being done towards him cannot, when he suffers from it, complain of it as a wrong."

by parking a prohibited vehicle on private land you may be found to have assented to the advertised penalty

Opinions are offered in good faith based upon personal experience and research. Before making any irreversible decisions the opinion of a qualified, registered and insured legal professional should be sought.

 

If my advice or information has assisted you in any way - please click my scales.

 

thanks

 

Nat West Charges £1056 WON

RBS Charges £3600 WON

RBS Unenforceable Loan £18500 Pending

RBS PPI on loan above Pending

MBNA Credit Card CCA & SAR Sent

Co-op Credit Card CCA Sent

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Landowners can exclude who they wish, but practically there's not much they can do if they're intent on only excluding certain visitors. You can't just clamp somebody indefinitely even if they're on your land.

 

Note how the examples mention actual loss and self help. If a car was on your property without permission and was damaging a verge or something, you could then possibly tow it.

 

A car just sitting there wouldn't be causing loss and you couldn't use self help. If the car was being obstructive and affecting your business then you'd be suffering, but I'm struggling to see how a car with out of tax disc would be harmful. Unless it had been there for a while and had been dumped.

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A car on your land is causing you the loss of the use of that land. whether or not it is causing damage or obstruction, it is taking up space to which it is not entitled.

Even if the driver pays and displays, the contract would not be valid as the sineage specifically excludes untaxed vehicles.

 

I am not suggesting an indefinate clamping (I hate clampers - did I mention that) but I still maintain that it would be legal to clamp and charge a release fee. (also being the vindictive SOB that I am I would have the police attend the unclamping so they could seize the car the minute it left the carpark and went onto the public highway)

Opinions are offered in good faith based upon personal experience and research. Before making any irreversible decisions the opinion of a qualified, registered and insured legal professional should be sought.

 

If my advice or information has assisted you in any way - please click my scales.

 

thanks

 

Nat West Charges £1056 WON

RBS Charges £3600 WON

RBS Unenforceable Loan £18500 Pending

RBS PPI on loan above Pending

MBNA Credit Card CCA & SAR Sent

Co-op Credit Card CCA Sent

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Landowners can exclude who they wish, but practically there's not much they can do if they're intent on only excluding certain visitors. You can't just clamp somebody indefinitely even if they're on your land.

 

Note how the examples mention actual loss and self help. If a car was on your property without permission and was damaging a verge or something, you could then possibly tow it.

 

A car just sitting there wouldn't be causing loss and you couldn't use self help. If the car was being obstructive and affecting your business then you'd be suffering, but I'm struggling to see how a car with out of tax disc would be harmful. Unless it had been there for a while and had been dumped.

Funnily enough I've just updated the clamping guide to include a bit more on the trespass tort.

 

"Trespass is part of the legal system of torts. Under tort, damages are sought to restore a party to original position as best they can before commission of the tort. They are therefore punitive in nature. "

 

I agree that it would be up to a landowner to demonstrate how such a vehicle is causing damage to his land or property. However if this is a space that is leased as part of a rental agreement then his damages it could be argued are nil.

 

It's also worth bearing in mind that such action can only be taken on behalf of the landlord and that damages paid must go to the landlord and not into the coffers of a third party.

 

However under the system of distress feasant I believe you could potentially clamp someone's vehicle indefinitely. The case law says that release must occur when offer to pay is made. It therefore follows that if no offer is made the goods continue to be distrained. In some case the vehicle may be worth less than the release fee and it maybe a convienent way to get somebody else to dispose of it.

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This does not constitute legal advice and is not represented as a substitute for legal advice from an appropriately qualified person or firm.

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but I still maintain that it would be legal to clamp and charge a release fee.

 

Possibly - if the sign was spot on and fair. I still think consent would be very problematic though if you're relying on a tax disc.

 

However under the system of distress feasant I believe you could potentially clamp someone's vehicle indefinitely. The case law says that release must occur when offer to pay is made. It therefore follows that if no offer is made the goods continue to be distrained. In some case the vehicle may be worth less than the release fee and it maybe a convienent way to get somebody else to dispose of it.

 

Offer to pay what though? I seriously doubt you can clamp and then negotiate a release fee.

 

It's true that you could dump a car on private land, but you'd have to be criminally minded - removing VIN plates and such.

Edited by Al27
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I scrapped a car a few months ago and got £100 for it - why dump it?

 

TFT

09/07/09 :)Business Studies BA(Hons) 2:1:)

 

eCar Insurance overpayment - £325

Settled in full - 15/09/08

NatWest Student A/C bank charges - £260

Settled under hardship scheme - 08/06/09

Natwest Business A/C bank charges - £60

Settled in full as GOGW - 20/04/09

Santander Consumer Finance late payment fees - £60

Part settled for £48 - 01/03/08

Peugeot Finance late payment fees - £50

Settled in full before county court hearing - 01/09/09

Peugeot Finance overpayment of £247

Settled in full - 01/12/08

Valley Leisure - complaint about collections agent

£160 part refund of gym membership in compensation - 01/02/09

HFC Bank - complaint about payment deducted from my account on wrong date

GOGW £10 - 01/05/09

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I scrapped a car a few months ago and got £100 for it - why dump it?

 

TFT

In some places it costs to have a car removed. It depends on the state of the vehicle/make/model. I had a vauxhall astra a few years back which several wreckers wanted me to pay them £30 to dispose of. I eventually gave it to some friends whose motor had died. I guess some people can't be bothered with the hassle.

 

It is a very real problem - it costs the councils a fair bit every year. No doubt private landlords will want to discourage this sort of thing as well.

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How on earth can clamping an abandoned vehicle which by definition no one is coming back for reduce the problem or deter someone from abandoning a vehicle in ANY way ? Landowner clamps vehicle and won't release clamp until someone pays. No one pays so vehicle now the landowners problem. Abandonment done AND vehicle 'tranferred' to someone else who has taken control of it. Job done better than leaving it on the street. And the landowner then has to deal with getting rid of the vehicle - not having a V5 for it ! Sorry but I find the argument that PPCs want to clamp for no tax as being a measure to stop people dumping cars completely and obviously fallacious. The only reason for clamping cars is to get money out of people.

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How on earth can clamping an abandoned vehicle which by definition no one is coming back for reduce the problem or deter someone from abandoning a vehicle in ANY way ? Landowner clamps vehicle and won't release clamp until someone pays. No one pays so vehicle now the landowners problem. Abandonment done AND vehicle 'tranferred' to someone else who has taken control of it. Job done better than leaving it on the street. And the landowner then has to deal with getting rid of the vehicle - not having a V5 for it ! Sorry but I find the argument that PPCs want to clamp for no tax as being a measure to stop people dumping cars completely and obviously fallacious. The only reason for clamping cars is to get money out of people.

 

It's a very good point - why go to the lengths of trying to keep on your land something that you do not want there in the first place? PPC's will exploit every possible angle to make money. Add to this, if a £50,000 Merc was parked on private land without tax would it still be considered to be abandoned - I think you will find that it is only the cars PPC's know people will come back for that they will clamp - therefore not wanting to really bother with the traditional abandoned car such as a late 80's hatchback.

 

TFT

09/07/09 :)Business Studies BA(Hons) 2:1:)

 

eCar Insurance overpayment - £325

Settled in full - 15/09/08

NatWest Student A/C bank charges - £260

Settled under hardship scheme - 08/06/09

Natwest Business A/C bank charges - £60

Settled in full as GOGW - 20/04/09

Santander Consumer Finance late payment fees - £60

Part settled for £48 - 01/03/08

Peugeot Finance late payment fees - £50

Settled in full before county court hearing - 01/09/09

Peugeot Finance overpayment of £247

Settled in full - 01/12/08

Valley Leisure - complaint about collections agent

£160 part refund of gym membership in compensation - 01/02/09

HFC Bank - complaint about payment deducted from my account on wrong date

GOGW £10 - 01/05/09

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I used to goad the local PPC with an old H reg micra, borderline MOT failure 2 months left on the tax. They never clamped it once despite parking in a clamping hotspot. On day they clamped all the cars around it and left the micra alone.

 

Go figure.

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We have it figured. Clamping has nothing to do with trespass or parking control or 'abandoned vehicles', its to do with money.

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If they fixed the problem they were supposed to solve, they wouldn't make any money.

 

Basically the same for councils though with their camera enforcement of bus lanes etc. If they really made the signage unmissable and put road marking down that helped the motorist avoid entry, then their revenue would also go down and they'd have no-one left to pay for them putting more cameras in!

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I hate this camera enforcement business, you're left waiting for weeks wondering if you have been busted :(

 

TFT

09/07/09 :)Business Studies BA(Hons) 2:1:)

 

eCar Insurance overpayment - £325

Settled in full - 15/09/08

NatWest Student A/C bank charges - £260

Settled under hardship scheme - 08/06/09

Natwest Business A/C bank charges - £60

Settled in full as GOGW - 20/04/09

Santander Consumer Finance late payment fees - £60

Part settled for £48 - 01/03/08

Peugeot Finance late payment fees - £50

Settled in full before county court hearing - 01/09/09

Peugeot Finance overpayment of £247

Settled in full - 01/12/08

Valley Leisure - complaint about collections agent

£160 part refund of gym membership in compensation - 01/02/09

HFC Bank - complaint about payment deducted from my account on wrong date

GOGW £10 - 01/05/09

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