RE: PPC's and Vehicle Tax

[the_freedom_trail]

Hello every1,

 

Quick question, the PPC that manages the site where I live state on the sign at the entrance that all vehicles must display valid vehicle tax. The land is private btw. Could they enforce this under contract law as I thought that the correct terminology was Vehicle Excise Duty - therefore should not the sign say that all vehicles must display evidence of current vehicle excise duty. I know it is a technicality but then legal cases are one and lost on minor details.

 

P.S. I know about the general issues of PPC charges being unenforceable - it is opinions on the tax issue I am interested in.

 

Regards,

 

TFT

[kiptower]

PPC dream their own rules up so they can give you one of their fairytale invoices, the answer is NO, they DO NOT WORK for the DVLA, however make sure the car has been SORN

[the_freedom_trail]

The reason for this rule is that there are too many cars at the site for the spaces available; therefore, by taxing your vehicle you automatically use it. However, if you do not tax your vehicle then you are guaranteed not to use it?! - this is what the managing agent says - not my words.

 

Personally, my vehicle is taxed as I am an absolute petrol head and cannot go two days without driving; however, I thought it was an interesting point. Surely, the Unfair Contract Terms Act must kick in at some stage, otherwise you could say that only grey cars with an engine bigger than 1.8 litre capacity can only park here.

 

TFT

[lamma]

what does your lease say about parking exactly ? do you pay for your own parking space ? if so the PPC can FRO

[green_and_mean]

If the land is private they can make up what rules they like as long as they are clearly signed and do not breach any other laws such as no cars belonging to black people which would be discriminatory. Saying no grey cars is no different from saying no vans or vistors cars.

[gwc1000]

I can see their point about an untaxed car. I would imagine that they would think that there is a possibility that any untaxed car is dumped, and would be left to deteriorate.

[Al27]

If the land is private they can make up what rules they like as long as they are clearly signed and do not breach any other laws such as no cars belonging to black people which would be discriminatory. Saying no grey cars is no different from saying no vans or vistors cars.

 

They can 'make up' any rules they like. They have no recourse for anyone breaking their rules though - unfair contract terms probably scupper any attempt..

 

Unlike clamping, I fail to see how you can consent to being clamped for no tax. You can't consent by means of 'forgetting' ie. not changing the disc.

 

Don't believe any apparent reasoning for this no-tax clause though - it's purely an easy way to make money because it's so visible. Date on the tax out of date? Great - slap on a ticket.

 

It's probably borne out of the fact council PCNs often print out the tax disc number, for identity backup purposes.

 

I don't think we should kid ourselves that this is to stop cars being dumped!

[the_freedom_trail]

I can see their point about an untaxed car. I would imagine that they would think that there is a possibility that any untaxed car is dumped, and would be left to deteriorate.

 

However, in my instance my car is reasonably expensive and not the sort of vehicle that would be dumped.

 

TFT

[the_freedom_trail]

If the land is private they can make up what rules they like as long as they are clearly signed and do not breach any other laws such as no cars belonging to black people which would be discriminatory. Saying no grey cars is no different from saying no vans or vistors cars.

 

Does that mean that a shop such as Tesco could say no one is allowed to come in who has white shoes - even if there was no good reason for this. Surely, as a business selling the right to park on your private land you are providing a service to consumers and should be bound by relevant laws.

 

TFT

[flyingdoc]

Does that mean that a shop such as Tesco could say no one is allowed to come in who has white shoes - even if there was no good reason for this. Surely, as a business selling the right to park on your private land you are providing a service to consumers and should be bound by relevant laws.

 

A shop such as tescos has the right to refuse you entry, or refuse to serve you for any or no reason, nor are they obliged to give a reason for the refusal.

 

Similarly If you own a carpark you can legally refuse anyone entry for any or no reason (although as stated above if you posted a sign saying no cars owned by blacks there would be discrimination issues)

If the owner of the land says no untaxed cars - then no untaxed cars are allowed - end of. Parking an untaxed car is therefore trespass and they can legally respond by clamping. There is no unfair terms in this contract as there is no contract.

(personally I think wheel clamping should be illegal and all those involved should be shot - reincarnated and shot again but thats another story)

[the_freedom_trail]

So if there is no contract then how can PPC's take you to court for breaching a contract?

 

TFT

[flyingdoc]

If you mean about the untaxed car - they are not taking you to court for breach of contract - they are taking you to court for trespass, as they have prohibeted untaxed cars from parking on their land

[flyingdoc]

I once went to a motorcycle shop, where the car park was for motorcycles only. There was a large notice saying NO CARS, ANY CARS PARKED HERE WILL BE CLAMPED.

 

As the owner of the carpark the bike shop owner had that right (assuming he had all the relevant licenses etc)

In the same way a landowner could ban all cars of a certain make, model color or taxation class or status.

[Al27]

I once went to a motorcycle shop, where the car park was for motorcycles only. There was a large notice saying NO CARS, ANY CARS PARKED HERE WILL BE CLAMPED.

 

No doubt a hollow threat, but going by that sign he's have to take the clamp off straight away, for no charge. Seems a bit pointless in that respect, but I suppose it works if people actually don't park there.

 

A shop such as tescos has the right to refuse you entry, or refuse to serve you for any or no reason, nor are they obliged to give a reason for the refusal.

 

Similarly If you own a carpark you can legally refuse anyone entry for any or no reason (although as stated above if you posted a sign saying no cars owned by blacks there would be discrimination issues)

If the owner of the land says no untaxed cars - then no untaxed cars are allowed - end of. Parking an untaxed car is therefore trespass and they can legally respond by clamping. There is no unfair terms in this contract as there is no contract.

(personally I think wheel clamping should be illegal and all those involved should be shot - reincarnated and shot again but thats another story)

 

Right about the 'rules', but again, any clamp would have to be removed straight off, for free.

You can choose who does and who doesn't use your land, but if you want to enforce silly rules like no red cars, you're only option is to stand at the entrance and vet who you let past.

 

they are taking you to court for trespass, as they have prohibeted untaxed cars from parking on their land

 

As this a civil case, you would have to demonstrate what losses you've incurred from Mr No-Tax's parking. You'd have a hard job proving it was any more than £0.

 

If the owner of the land says no untaxed cars - then no untaxed cars are allowed - end of. Parking an untaxed car is therefore trespass and they can legally respond by clamping. There is no unfair terms in this contract as there is no contract.

 

You can say what is and isn't 'allowed' til you're blue in the face, but there's not much you do. You could clamp, but without an SIA licence and clear signs you'd be in a sticky situation. As there is 'no contract' the car owner would be entitled to self help and even take you to court if you cost him financially from your actions.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Al27

[green_and_mean]

Unlike clamping, I fail to see how you can consent to being clamped for no tax. You can't consent by means of 'forgetting' ie. not changing the disc.

 

Don't believe any apparent reasoning for this no-tax clause though - it's purely an easy way to make money because it's so visible. Date on the tax out of date? Great - slap on a ticket.

 

 

It is the same as checking you have a permit or p&d when you park if the signs say vehicles not displaying tax will be clamped that is not an unfair contract, it is your responsibility to check its taxed when you leave it parked.

[the_freedom_trail]

Yes, but PPC's have to realise that we have the DVLA and the Police to ensure that vehicles are correctly licensed - they don't have to worry about it - bless them lol It's not really the same as checking a permit or P and D is it because that shows you have a right to park on the land. A valid tax disc only indicates that you have paid your car tax to the government.

 

TFT

[green_and_mean]

Yes, but PPC's have to realise that we have the DVLA and the Police to ensure that vehicles are correctly licensed - they don't have to worry about it - bless them lol It's not really the same as checking a permit or P and D is it because that shows you have a right to park on the land. A valid tax disc only indicates that you have paid your car tax to the government.

 

TFT

 

They are not checking the cars have tax they are ensuring that the area is not used as a dumping ground for untaxed vehicles. Its common for Council estates to have a similar policy in the tennancy agreement as regards to communal parking areas.

[flyingdoc]

You can say what is and isn't 'allowed' til you're blue in the face, but there's not much you do. You could clamp, but without an SIA licence and clear signs you'd be in a sticky situation. As there is 'no contract' the car owner would be entitled to self help and even take you to court if you cost him financially from your actions.

 

If you read my post when I put this I did specify "provided they have the correct licenses" by which I meant the SIA license etc

 

As long as the sineage is correct, this would be no different than saying "no parking, cars parked here will be clamped"

 

This is fully legal and enforceable.

Edited March 6, 2009 by flyingdoc

[Steve__M]

Possibly you might see the other side to this if one of your neighbours goes into the business of repairing knackered old trabants or similar, and has four of them because he uses three of them for spares.

[flyingdoc]

does he want to buy one - I know where there is one for sale

[the_freedom_trail]

"You can say what is and isn't 'allowed' til you're blue in the face, but there's not much you do. You could clamp, but without an SIA licence and clear signs you'd be in a sticky situation. As there is 'no contract' the car owner would be entitled to self help and even take you to court if you cost him financially from your actions."

 

Forget the SIA License, I find an angle grinder is more effective - of course I am not advacating this approach but just saying.

 

More importantly, what about changing the rules retrospectively. So, this morning the rules were that any car could park on the site; however, what if they changed this rule when all the car owners were out to just cars of a certain weight - could they then tow/clamp/remove the cars in breach?

 

TFT

[flyingdoc]

No they could not change the rules retrospectively when cars were parked, as this would mean that the sineage was incorrect at the time the vehicle was parked.

 

 

And removing a legally applied wheel clamp is still criminal damage. whether you agree with them or not (which I do not)

[crem]

Possibly you might see the other side to this if one of your neighbours goes into the business of repairing knackered old trabants or similar, and has four of them because he uses three of them for spares.

 

If he was doing this I assume the 3 he used for spares would not be taxed. This still has nothing to do with a PPC who have no legal authority to issue a parking invoice for this. You, however, could report it to the DVLA/police who could take legal action against him. This course of action, IMO, would be much more effective.

[flyingdoc]

If he was doing this I assume the 3 he used for spares would not be taxed. This still has nothing to do with a PPC who have no legal authority to issue a parking invoice for this. You, however, could report it to the DVLA/police who could take legal action against him. This course of action, IMO, would be much more effective.

 

as long as he has registered them SORN, and they are off the public highway, the DVLA can do nothing

[Al27]

"no parking, cars parked here will be clamped"

 

This is fully legal and enforceable.

 

In that the clamp must be removed immediately, for free. That is as 'legal and enforceable' as the sign gets.

 

Even then, I suspect you would need to add the parties of the contract as well though.

 

Remember clamping is about consent. Whether your tax disc is out of date counts as consent is doubtful at best.