Markedcard vs Halifax - The Jounrey Begins

[MarkedCard]

Hi, I'm new to this site, but have been reading as much as I can over the last few weeks and just want to say I think it's brilliant that so many people are prepared to help others with knowledgeable help and advise.

 

I'm going to see if one of my credit cards (Halifax) has an enforceable CCA. Initially it didn't sit comfortably with me, had always been bought up to pay what you owe. However I am now really struggling with money and believe I have paid back everything I have actually spent on the credit card and what's left is interest. Also for the 1st time ever I missed a payment last month and they have been on the phone to me 3-4 times a day, anyone would think I hadn't paid for months.

 

So if they haven't got a correct agreement with me I'm going to fight back. And when I get into the swing of it, I'm going to go after my bank (Lloyds) for charges..!!

 

A few questions. As I said I'm really in a bad way with money and can't afford to pay even the minimum and have missed a payment (1st ever in 6 years). Should I offer a token payment while I pursue my CCA or could this compromise me in the future as acknowledging the debt?

 

And i found this template to sent does it look OK?

 

 

Name & Address

Date

Dear Sir / Madam

 

 

Re: Account No: .......... XXXX

 

 

With reference to the above account, I would be grateful for a signed copy of my Consumer Credit Agreement.

 

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77-79), I am entitled to receive a copy of this agreement upon request. I therefore enclose a payment of £1.00 which represents the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act.

 

 

I understand that a copy of my credit agreement should be supplied within 12 working days.

 

 

I also understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

 

Yours faithfully (Print name)

 

 

Now I know this going to take a lot of time, hard work and stress, but I willing to give it ago....so expect alot more questions.

 

Mark

[clemma]

CCA letter

 

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: Account no: xxxxxxxx

 

This letter is a formal request pursuant to s.77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I require you to provide me with a true copy of the credit agreement relating to the above account, together with any other documentation the Act requires you to provide.

 

I expect you to comply fully and properly with this request, within the statutory time limit. You are reminded that should you fail to comply with my request, the provisions of s.77(6) will apply.

 

If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA 1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties.

 

Your attention is drawn to ss.5(2), 3(b),6 and 7 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR).

 

I enclose a postal order in the sum of £1.00, which is the statutory fee. Note that these funds are not to be used for any other purpose.

 

If you are unable to comply fully and properly with this request, you should confirm this in writing at the earliest opportunity, and certainly within the statutory time limit for compliance, and return the fee.

 

 

 

Yours etc

 

PRINT do not sign, send recorded delivery with a £1 postal order. They have 12+2 working days to respond. If you receive nothing, or something completely unenforceable, then the account falls in to dispute and you can stop making payments to them.

 

As to whether you pay them when your request is in - it's your choice, but I personally wouldn't pay them another penny

[MarkedCard]

Hi Clemma. Thanks for the template, I'm going to get the request off straight away. Lets see what they comeback with and I'll keep everyone informed.

 

What's really got my goat is......I miss 1 payment, they dont stop calling and then write stating they have reduced my credit limited to just above the balance, which is fine as I haven't used the card for a while. But over the years I have cleared the card a few times and their response was to just up the limit another couple of thousand (I have never asked for an increase ever) I know it's not true, but it feels like they just wanted to push my spending too far. Well they have a fight on their hands and if they dont have an enforceable agreement they can whitsle

[MarkedCard]

Hi, just an update.

 

Sent my CCA to Halifax which was received around 10 working days ago and surprise surprise no reply, so will wait the full 12 + 2 days before snet the next letter. I did pay a token amount this month of around half the minimum, however I have recieved a card in post saying they are going to visit my home . Has anyone got or can point me in the direction of the letter template which states I do not wish to receive home visits. I have looked, but cant to find it.

 

Thanks

[clemma]

No visits letter:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Account Ref xxxx

 

Please be advised that I will only communicate with you in writing.

 

Should it be your intention to arrange a “doorstep call”, please be advised that under OFT rules, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have no wish to make an appointment with you.

 

There is only an implied license under English Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives to visit me at my property and if you do so, then you will be liable to damages for a tort of trespass and action will be taken, including but not limited to, police attendance.

 

Yours faithfully

[MarkedCard]

Thanks Clemma for the fast reply, I'll post the letter in the morning.

 

Did receive a strange letter earlier in the week from the Halifax about me stopping the DD I had set up with them. Just saying thank you for your recent correspondence. As requested we have cancelled the DD facility on your account. Thing is the only correspondence they have had from me, is me requesting a CCA. Guess maybe it's just a standard template letter they send out, but doesn't fill me with confidence that they know what they are doing.!!

[MarkedCard]

Hi,

 

Had a reply to my CCA request which consisted of 2 sets of T & C's only. 1 seems to be current time and the 2nd set possibly when the card was taken out. This isn't made clear on either copy, however I can see the set with the higher interst (current I assume) has £12 chages the other set £25 charges. Both sets are 9 pages long.!!

 

Last paragraph on the covering letter sent with the T&Cs from the Halifax states....

 

Please note the information we have provided you with is all the information we are required to provide you with Under Section 78 of the Consumer Cedit Act. Please also note we are not required to provide copy of the orginal signed agreement under section 78 of the Consumer credit Act.

 

So what I'm going to do is send an account in dispute letter. Can anyone point me in the right direction to a template or has anyone seen a cleverly worded reply to the response I have recieved.

 

I know I will have to consider the CPR route, however if it ever did get to court, I want the judge to see I have been reasonable in the way I have requested a copy of my agreement.

 

I still stuggle to understand why the banks won't sent the agreements when we first ask or say thay haven't got a copy...hmmm I know silly comment. !!

[clemma]

Send this to them:

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Account Number: XXX

 

Re: your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending your companies old and current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

 

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

 

Yours faithfully

__________________

[MarkedCard]

Thank you clemma you help, it is really appreciated. I was going to sent the letter you suggested, however with this bit added to the bottom.

 

Do you think it's OK to add?

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Should you not have any signed credit agreement in relation to this alleged debt, please confirm this in writing to me within 14 days.

 

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to your reply.

 

Thanks again for your help

 

M

Edited March 29, 2009 by MarkedCard

[clemma]

Yep - if you want to add that bit, then I don't see a problem with it.

[babydoll0141917]

SubbingAny chance you can scan ya docs minus all ure personnal info??

[MarkedCard]

Hi, I wonder if anyone can help. I sent an account in dispute letter to the Halifax after they just sent 2 copies of their terms and condition in response to my CCA request. That was back in late March. I never received a reply to that letter until this Default Notice came today.

 

Firstly could someone tell if they think the Default Notice is all OK. It's dated 7th May, but surprise surprise it takes a week to arrive with me. It allows 14 days, but shouldn't there be some time for posting? and secondly how should I respond? Should I write again asking for a true copy of my CCA, if so could someone point me in the right direction to a template.

 

Thanks for any help in advance

 

http://

 

http://

[MarkedCard]

Bump

[griffin036]

Im surprised they have issues a default notice in such a short space of time, if as you say you last made a payment to them in March. I last made a payment over five months ago and only just received a default notice.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/199746-bos-no-enforceable-agreement.html

[MarkedCard]

Actually last full payment was in Feb, I made a token payment in March and nothing since. Speed of the default maybe down to answering only 1 of their calls to tell them all communication in writing only.

 

Thing is and I'm not totally sure, but shouldn't they allow time for posting of say 2 days in addition to the 14 days stated in the Default notice. I've looked over the last couple of days on the site and everyone who has received a Default Notice from the Halifax have only being given 14 days in total and like me recieved the letter around 7 days after date stated on the Default.?? Just wondered if anyone could confirm and also point me in the right direction for my next move. As I said before I have only received 2 sets of terms and conditions after my original CCA request. I then sent an account in dispute letter requesting and true signed copy of my credit agreement and nothing back at all

[MarkedCard]

Hi

 

Halifax having sent me a Default Notice have now sent a Termination Notice. I'm just looking for some advise on a few points and also what my next steps should be.

 

1, Is the Default Notice enforceable as it only gave 14 days in total. Should there be some allowance for posting?

 

2, The Termination Notice is dated the 20th May, which only allowed 13 days from date of Default and is it an actual formal Tremination Notice, seems very informal to me?? I've uploaded below

 

If you read my thread I have sent a CCA request and only received their standard T&C's I have also sent a follow letter, stating their T&Cs were not good enough and requetsing a true signed copy of agreement, but never received a reply.

 

Should I now be thinking about going down the CPR route??

 

Any views or advise would be greatly appreciated.

 

[middenmess]

My maths is only average but if default notice is dated 7th May then 2 days for service if it was posted 1st class,excluding Sat and Sunday would give a service date of Monday 11th May.

I believe [but stand to be corrected] that the 12 days begins from the first working day after that viz. May 12th,making the twelfth day the 24th May.

 

Prehaps others can confirm?

[MarkedCard]

Ok an update. I have recieved what I believe is a dodgy Default amd Termination notice (I dont believe they gave enough time, see above). I have kept asking for a true copy of my CCA. Halifax have written in the last few weeks now saying they are at this time unable to provide a copy of the signed application form , however they confirm it is their procedure to obatin a customers signature all agreements with proscribed terms......Well find it and send it to me and we can start talking..!!!

 

I have received a letter from their in-house debit colllectors threatening this and that, OK well bring it on..!! What I would like to do is send the 'bemused letter' Could someone please point me in the right direction of the template, I cant seem to find it.

 

Thanks

[clemma]

Here you go:

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Your Reference:

Client reference:

 

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

I must admit that I am rather bemused as to why this account has been passed to you, as it is in dispute with ***OC*** and has been since ***Date***

 

Not only is this a breach of OFT collection guidelines, but also in breach of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and Data Protection Act 1998

 

 

As ***OC*** is now in default of my Consumer Credit Act request, Office of Fair Trading Collection Guidelines and s10 Data Protection Act request, I consider this account to be in SERIOUS DISPUTE.

 

As you are aware while my Consumer Credit Act request remains in default, enforcement action is NOT permitted; under s127 this constitutes a complete defence at law. Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Now I would respectfully suggest that this account is returned to ***OC*** for resolution of these defaults and breaches, as ***DCA*** cannot lawfully pursue any enforcement activities.

 

If ***DCA***chooses to ignore my dispute and attempt enforcement, I will initiate legal action and file reports with the appropriate authorities, including, but not limited to, Trading Standards, Office of Fair Trading, Information Commissioners Office, Financial Ombudsman Service and possible court action.

 

I hope that this will not be necessary and an acceptable solution can be accomplished.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

Yours faithfully

Print do not sign your name

[Fluffystuff]

Hi Clemma,

 

Please could I use your letter in #7 ??

[clemma]

Hi Clemma,

 

Please could I use your letter in #7 ??

 

Of course you can You can use any letters you stumble across on CAG.

[MarkedCard]

Hi Clemma..Thank you for the template and I'll keep everyone updated.

[MarkedCard]

Hi

 

I wonder if anyone can help. I received this letter today from Blair Oliver & Scott today (see below). Just to bring everyone upto date I did sent the letter suggested by clemma back in August and BOS have written a few times since just demanding money. I just ignored them until earlier this week when I did write again and my letter must of crossed with the one I received today (also see below). In my letter earlier in the week I was just asking again why BOS were still involved as I hadn't receieved a true copy of my credit agreement. Halifax themselves havent sent anything since the letter back in August which said at this time they couldn't find my signed CCA.

 

Now is this a serious threat of court action or a bluff and what should my response be. Should I write again saying as they intend to start court proceedings I assume they now have a true copy of my signed credit card agreement and I would be grateful if they could sent me a copy to review or should I consider sending a CPR 31.16 letter? And who should I reply to Halifax or BOS?

 

Any advise would be greatly received. thanks

 

Copy of letter sent by Blair Oliver & Scott

 

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Edited October 16, 2009 by MarkedCard

[MarkedCard]

I'm not sure if I have downloaded the letter correctly or whether it is too small, if so let me know and I will try again

[MarkedCard]

I would be grateful for any feedback or advise on the letter I am going to send to Blair, Oliver & Scott in response to their letter threatening to start court action. I have basically copied the one suggested by PT2537 in his 'why you shouldnt use section 77/78 CCA 1974 if you want the signed agreement' thread.

 

Also I have tried to upload again a copy of the letter they sent (i've dont it in the past, but now cant remember how.!!) and again any thougths or feedback would be good

 

 

My proposed response

 

 

Dear Sirs

 

Account number

 

I write with regards to the above account with your organisation. Following you letter dated xxxx stating your intention to start court action, I respectfully request that you provide me by return a copy of the credit agreement which bears my signature. I require this as i have reason to believe that there may be discrepancies within the agreement which may leave it improperly executed. Obviously if the agreement is improperly executed i would be entitled to ask the court to consider the agreement and make a declaration of the rights of parties to the agreement.

 

I must stress this request is NOT made pursuant to section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974 but is made pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules ( Pre action protocols and Part 31.16) and therefore unsigned copy will not suffice, only a copy of the original contract in its unaltered form will suffice in these circumstances

 

Please confirm if you still hold a copy of my signed agreement and that you will provide me with this document.

 

I do not view this as an unreasonable request given that by supplying the document which i have asked for it will allow me to assess if my case has merit and will help to resolve matters possibly without the need to involve the court and will undoubtedly save costs on both sides

 

I look forward to your reply and would ask for a response by 4pm on XXXX Date

 

Regards