Win Investing - And no right to refund - mental capacity issues

[joneseyblod]

Hi

 

Below is details of the events:

 

Went along to a free seminar in London on 29th July 2008

 

A guy giving the course, at the end gave a big lead up to people raising their hands quickly to get a comprehensive trading pack for free, £500 discount, get free 3 day training courses etc. First 5 people, too many people raising their hands each time.

 

He finally advised the first 5 people to fill out the forms at the back and pay would get the home study course for £1970 instead of usual price of £3100, plus a friend, relative or spouse could also come along to the 3 day seminar worth £3100 for free.

 

 

Big rush of people to the desk with forms on with cards in their hands.

Was one of them.

 

 

Felt pressured into filling out form without having time to fully read it due to other people around with forms, cards etc. Was a booking form with copies for various people. T & C were 'hidden' right at the back.

 

Once paid, was given a quick start pack (not mentioned as part of the share trading pack, t & c mention a home study course, which it wasnt that either.

 

 

After later reading the t& c it seems to be a free gift, as paying for the Home Study course (HS) which was not given at the time and never have been. Along with other things like the 3 day seminar, investment club membership etc.

 

 

Quick Start was already opened, 1 disc was upside down. Not a new/mint/sealed copy as is meant to be - issues with refunds on unsealed copies in T & C's.

 

Due to late return the following day at 9am rang regarding the condition of the Quick Start and spoke to a lady who advised should not of been given an opened/unsealed copy and that they were low on stocks that day. She advised a new copy would be sent out.

 

 

Never received despite also speaking with course speaker at a later date about one.

 

 

Did not fill out the cancellation form.

Faxed and posted a letter advising of very recent tragic circumstances and that felt at this time could not embark on the home study course or attend the 3 day seminar. (Date had been changed from middle of August to beginning of September and no problem with that). Gave plenty of notice on the seminar as any changes had to be with them by the 29th of August.

 

Requested refund of the course and referenced certain points in contract re 7 days after receiving home study course for refunds, contract not yet concluded.

 

Never received any written confirmation of course being cancelled.

 

To date never received the home study course.

 

Win Investing has had £1970 since end of July.

 

Been fed lies from 19th August to 24th October. During this time, the refund had been authorised, copy of letter for refund sent to accounts for processing, MD filling out paperwork to process refund, paperwork with MD, paperwork back in office from MD, refund processed and awaiting date, green light given for refund, date given of funds to be back in my account as the 24th October. Details of dates and times who spoke to etc for each of these.

 

Had letter end of October from Customer Service Manager regarding my letter dated 15th October apologising for the delay in refunding funds, it was with accounts and awaiting on authorisation and they would chase this up and let us know when they have any news.

 

Never received anything further and so contacted a solicitor, who sent a few letters demanding refund, followed by a 7 day letter before action.

 

Solicitor advises not heard anything and so go ahead with N1 (have to do ourselves), as there is a statutory 7 day cooling off / cancellation period, and it was cancelled early. A friend who works at another solicitors agrees with solicitors, and adds that usually its 14 days rather than 7.

 

Win Investing say they wrote to solicitor to advise theres no right to a any refund as purchase was made in person.

 

Just yesterday spoke to Win Investing, they say they wrote to us in December about this.

 

Person this refers to has severe mental health problems for many years, including suffering from disocciative states and personalities. Is under treatment and will be for many years. - GP and consultants evidence of this.

 

Do not think they had the mental capacity to make this type of decision.

 

Have scanned in the t & c's of the form, will shortly scan in the booking form itself with the personal details removed.

 

Would really appreciate advice on whether this is worth pursuing through courts?

 

& whether to disclose their medical issues to the courts?

 

Also if there is anything under the new Unfair trading regulations - Misleading / misrepresenting. Causing them significant inconvenience, distress, upset and hardship.

 

Finally as its a complicated matter, I will be dealing with on their behalf, and my never been to court, filled in N1 etc would really appreciate any input / suggestions to claim forms filled in at a later date.

 

Best wishes

Edited March 2, 2009 by joneseyblod
spacing issues - hard to read

[joneseyblod]

Booking form below.

 

Slightly confusing is that on bookin form it advises of a comprehensive share trading pack being purchased, on the back it advises of purchasing a home study pack.

 

[MrShed]

The name of the pack is neither here nor there really.

 

I am confused with regards the complaints regarding the purchase. What specifically do you feel was unlawful? Why was cancellation not enacted within 7 days if in doubt, as there is clearly a right to cancellation afforded by the T&Cs - which they do not have to do?

 

How was this paid for?

[joneseyblod]

Sorry you lost me there.

 

Home study kit or whatever name they wish to give to it has not been provided at all.

 

They have £1970 and this person has nothing.

 

Solicitors feel they have a right of refund and suggested to go ahead with a N1.

 

I just wanted some further advice on this? And also due to their mental health issues and whether they had the mental capacity to enter into this agreement?

[joneseyblod]

The 7 days is with regards to 7 days after receiving the goods, which still have not arrived. They requested the refund / cancelled early.

 

Paid by a debit card.

[buzby]

From what I have been told by others who have been to these 'presentations' the whole enterprise is carefully stage managed to make the attendee desperate to buy - very much like those fake 'auctions' that used to be popular in Oxford Street in London until Trading Standard managed to get them closed down.

 

The mental capacity argument is a non starter, if they are competent to have a bank account and make other decisions, the fact they (along with many others) were conned, is hardly an issue of a special dispensation. Clever people, normal people and stupid people get conned - there's no mystery to it.

 

The only fall back is that you can sometimes use your payment method to seek retribution, like with a credit or (Visa) debit card. In these cases, you can assert that the contract was never completed due to their inability to provide the necessary course material. Assuming they payment - which I understand was by Debit card - was either a Deferred Debit, or Visa Electron, there will be no problem.

 

However, if a Mastercard Debit Card (Maestro) then there is no scheme to arrange a reversal as it is only Visa who provide this additional protection (voluntarily) for debit card users.

 

The only other option, in the absence of receiving the goods as specified, is to proceed with the N1 and take them to court. However this may simply result in the missing course paperwork being delivered with an apology, which will then make it much harder to pursue, as it will look as though it is the customer who is trying to weasel out of their agreement.

[joneseyblod]

Hi buzby

 

Thanks for that.

 

The reason for mentioning that is they are classed as a vulnerable adult with severe mental disabilities, but I do see your point on that.

 

It was a maestro debit card unfortunately...

 

Sending the course materials etc out now some 7 months + after ordering when the terms and conditions state no later than 30 days after payment is quite a big delay though!

[buzby]

Agreed - but you'll appreciate a company like this will do all it can to - if put on the spot - claim that it was simply an oversight then ship the goods (you don't want) and short stop the action.

 

Normally in this situation I would have sent them a 'time is of the essence' letter, giving them 14 days to deliver the goods or provide a return of the money paid. If the refund is not forthcoming within the stipulated period, this forms you basis of claim when taking them to court.

 

But since you don't want the goods - I'm at a loss at how you could best strong-arm them into making a refund without delivering the goods first. There may be a possibility of being able to return them as unsuitable after receipt - but this would depend on their T&C's!

[joneseyblod]

October last year a 14 day letter was sent which was not replied to (after the date passed they had advised of the refund)

 

Their solicitor has sent 3 letters again no response

 

Also their is evidence of calls between august & october of them advising various stages of the refund process right up until the date they gave that it was meant to be back in this persons account and it wasnt.

[dave_roberts]

Guys - you want to get your refund claim in quickly, they are bankrupt according to Insolvency news.

[joneseyblod]

This is really odd because they are still trading, do we know what happens with things like their courses, investment club etc?

[Domster62]

I have had issues with this outfit - the founder Darren Winters is a charlatan and was treated to a corruscating profile in "Investors Chronicle" - I have tried repeatedly to obtain a refund on the grounds of fraudulent misrepresentation, unfair terms of trade to no avail. In my attempts to seek redress I have discovered that this outfit have been subject to innumerable court actions throughout the country which is not what you would expect of a reputable company. What I find insane here is that as a member of the general public I cannot obtain from the court service the results of any of the legal actions brought against this miserable outfit - how on earth is that in the public interest?

 

They were also subjected to less than complimentary coverage by the financial pages of several popular tabloid papers.

 

Had I known how dishonest they are I would never have entertained dealing with them but as the first posting in this thread states they are very good at cultivating a "feeding frenzy" and manipulating people into a highly suggestible state of mind.

 

My real beef is with the credit card companies that process payments to them - I attempted to seek redress through them and got short shrift. Being able to process credit card payments to my mind invests an enterprise with a degree of credibility that in this case is wholly undeserved.

 

I am still bitter about the experience and hope that Mr Winters suffers truly for the pain he has caused many innocent but trusting members of the public.

 

Any suggestions on pursuing the Credit Card companies in this matter or am I wasting my time and having to put this episode down to experience?