Catalogue Company - No signed CCA

[pu_mpk_in]

Hi,

 

I recently requested a copy of my CA from a catalogue company even though i am fairly sure there won't be one as i definately did not sign anything (but it was opened about 8 years ago), however, they have sent me a letter saying

 

"under regulation 3(2)(b) of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983, there is no requirement to provide a photocopy of the document bearing your signature, it is sufficient that we supply you with a 'True Copy' of the agreement setting out the terms and conditions......"

 

is this this the case? I am sure it can't be and i think they are trying to scare me off but i'm not sure what to say to them now, can anyone suggest a reply?

 

thanks

[heliosfa]

What have they actually sent you?

 

Under the 1983 regs, they can provide you with a "True Copy" which can exclude the signature boxes and debtor's address, but it must contain all of the financial information that the agreement you "signed" contains.

 

If you want the actual agreement, there are two real possible ways to get it. One way would be to use a SAR and as part of it request exact copies of any contracts they beleive exist. Or, you can use CPR 31.16 (http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html) if you are thinking of taking them to court to reclaim charges/default removal, etc.

 

Also, what catalogue is it and why did you CCA them?

[rory32]

Or, you can use CPR 31.16 (why you shouldnt use section 77/78 CCA 1974 if you want the signed agreement) if you are thinking of taking them to court to reclaim charges/default removal, etc.

The Civil Procedure Rules do not apply to Scotland. They only apply to England/Wales.

"under regulation 3(2)(b) of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983, there is no requirement to provide a photocopy of the document bearing your signature, it is sufficient that we supply you with a 'True Copy' of the agreement setting out the terms and conditions......"

 

is this this the case? I am sure it can't be and i think they are trying to scare me off but i'm not sure what to say to them now, can anyone suggest a reply?

It is the case that they can supply you with a true copy without signatures. However it must be a true copy and not purely conjecture. Without a copy of the original agreement it would be difficult for them to show that it is not purely conjecture. Also to enforce the agreement they would need to provide one that contains all the necessary prescribed terms and bears your signature.

 

What exactly have they sent you?

[pu_mpk_in]

They have sent me an agreement document where they have filled in my name and address and entered an account number, it is unsigned by me. The document is in two halves at the top of the first part it has the text 'please fill in your details, then sign and date this agreement and then send it back', the lower half has the same details but the text 'please fill in your details, then sign and date this agreement. THIS IS YOUR COPY please keep it in a safe place.

 

would it be easier if i try and upload the document and their covering letter for you to see?

[rory32]

Yes it would.

 

Without seeing the document they have provided, it does sound very much as though you should be considering a complaint to Trading Standards and the OFT.

[heliosfa]

The Civil Procedure Rules do not apply to Scotland. They only apply to England/Wales.

 

My bad, I didn't realise I was in the Scotland forums

[pu_mpk_in]

Hi,

 

here are the images, i've included the covering letter they sent with the agreement

http://i467.photobucket.com/albums/rr34/hneybee2003/agreement1.jpg

http://i467.photobucket.com/albums/rr34/hneybee2003/agreementpge2.jpg

http://i467.photobucket.com/albums/rr34/hneybee2003/letterpge1.jpg

http://i467.photobucket.com/albums/rr34/hneybee2003/letterpge2.jpg

[url=http://i467.photobucket.com/albums/rr34/hneybee2003/agreement1.jpg][/url]

[rory32]

Well the first thing that strikes me is the 12 quid charge. In 2001 the charge wouldn't have been this amount. Catalogues, store cards and credit cards only reduced their charges to this level after the OFT made it's decision about charges and the fact that they wouldn't automatically consider a charge of 12 pounds as unfair.

 

So what they have supplied you is not only unenforceable (because it's not executed by you), it would also appear to be complete conjecture on their behalf. I would make a complaint to TS and the OFT on those grounds.

[pu_mpk_in]

Thanks Rory,

 

Should i write back to them now and say that it's unenforceable, and let them know that i'm complaining to TS and the OFT?

 

what is the best way to word such a letter, are you be able to help me with what i should say to them and the OFT?

[pu_mpk_in]

anyone??

[pu_mpk_in]

Hi

 

in light of Rory's comments comments about the credit agreement, I was wondering if anyone could help me with a what i should do now, who should i write to and what should i say to them?

 

I am not very good at writing letters so any help would really be appreciated.

 

thanks

[IdaInFife]

reply to simply or jd williams or relaible whatever the head there letters with:

 

Dear Sirs,

Account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

Thank you for your recent letter sent to me, the contents of which are noted. I appreciate your quick response to my original letter. However, the reply received by me does not fulfil your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter.

My request remains outstanding. An unsigned credit agreement like the one you sent in your reply, does not constitute a true copy of any credit agreement that may or may not have been signed by me on the opening of this account. A blank agreement neither confirms that I am liable for any alleged debt to you, nor gives me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’.

I still require you to send me a true copy of the original credit agreement that you allege exists. As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

You had until xx/xx.2008 (12+2 working days after the request was made) to provide me with the true copy I requested. You are now in default of my request. Any account I hold with you is now in legal dispute. Whilst the account remains in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agency.

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the customer to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office

The time limits, which are laid down in the Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 are clear. You must supply an executed credit agreement within 12 + 2 working days of a proper CCA request. If you fail to comply with a legitimate request the account enters a default situation.

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Whilst you remain in default of my request, you are not permitted to take any action against this account. This includes adding further charges and passing any information to the credit reference agencies.

I expect you to write to me confimring that the account has been closed and no further action will be taken.

I look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully

 

Ida x

[pu_mpk_in]

Thanks Ida,

 

should i also write a letter of complaint to TS and the OFT (as suggested by Rory)?

[IdaInFife]

yes,

 

when writing to ts and oft keep it simple i.e. I sent of a cca request on xx/xx/xx. They responded on xx/xx/xx etc they don't need to know anything other than dates what request and just state even after suppying an unefroceable agreement they are demanding payment etc and try and include copies of any letters/responses you refer too

 

the moe complaints ts and oft recevie the better

 

can I also just add anone with a catelogue especially from js williams and assos please also make complaint to MOTA. (mail order traders assos)

 

you can also do this online through MOTA website

 

 

Ida x

[pu_mpk_in]

Thanks Ida,

 

i'll do the letters and send them off on Monday, Recorded Delivery to ensure they get them. Should i include a copy of my letters of complaint to TS and OFT in the letter to the catalogue company or is it not necessary for them to see those at this stage?

 

Which TS do i send my complaint to, my local TS or theirs?

Edited March 7, 2009 by pu_mpk_in
another question to ask

[pu_mpk_in]

Well i've sent the letters off and i'll wait and see what response, if any, i get.

[IdaInFife]

keep us posted

 

Ida x

[pu_mpk_in]

will do,

 

thanks Ida:)

[pu_mpk_in]

well i've received a reply and i think it's good news.

 

they state,

 

"we have complied with our obligations to supply you with a 'True Copy' of your credit agreement. A 'True Copy' is defined by Regulation 3 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983. The 'True Copy' need not, by law, contain either the signature of the debtor or the date of the signature in our case"

 

they go on to say,

 

"Havng been provided with this 'True Copy', there is no basis for you to allege that you are exonerated from payment under the agrement or that we remain in breach of our obligations under the act. You do not deny being in receipt of goods or services and it is therefore considered that your assertion that you have no legal liability for payment to be based solely on the fact that the relevant credit agreement has not been signed.

 

We would also point out that the absense of an executed agreement may affect our ability to legally pursue this matter, but not our right to seek payment through our normal collection methods, short of court proceedings"

 

In this case, however, we are prepared to cease all collections activity and have therefore sent a letter to XX to request that they take no further action in this matter.

we have forwarded your letter to the relevant department who will respond to your further comments.

 

we trust this closes matters"

 

is it good news?

[version302003]

We would also point out that the absense of an executed agreement may affect our ability to legally pursue this matter, but not our right to seek payment through our normal collection methods, short of court proceedings"

 

In this case, however, we are prepared to cease all collections activity and have therefore sent a letter to XX to request that they take no further action in this matter.

we have forwarded your letter to the relevant department who will respond to your further comments.

 

we trust this closes matters"

 

is it good news?

 

Very good news. They have admitted they do not have a signed executed agreement. Keep that letter very safe

[IdaInFife]

keep it safe as above.

 

even when they know they cannot do anything they still huff and haw.

 

it's up to you what you want to do now.

You can either sit onit and not make any payments or if you wanted make sunstancial discounted full and final offer as long as they remove details from cra's or make a fully settled.

 

whatever you do

well done

 

Ida x

[pu_mpk_in]

Thanks again Ida,

 

i may offer a 'full and final' payment as there are quite a few charges and if they were to be removed the amount due would be very small indeed.

 

thanks again

[pu_mpk_in]

Hi Ida,

 

can i ask your advice on how to word my letter offering a full and final payment. I'd like to ask that they remove all charges from the account and also details from any CRA's, then i'd be happy to offer what was left as a full and final payment, how should my letter be worded as i don't want them to think that it is open for negotiation and I'm not very good at writing letters.

 

thanks

[IdaInFife]

if you already have figure in which you would like to offer them,

 

use something like

 

Dear twats,

 

Thank you for your letter dated xx/xx/xx, confirming that there is no executed agreement and confirming that all collection activity will cease.

 

I want to offer £xx as an ex−gratia payment in full and final settlement of the account. This offer is made on the clear understanding that neither you nor any associate company will take any other action to enforce or pursue this debt in any way whatsoever and that we will be released for any liability.

 

We also request that you will make an entry on a credit reference agency file relating to the above account as "satisfied" in full.

 

Payment can be made within 2 weeks of receiving your written agreement of this offer and method of payment.

 

We look forward to receiving your reply.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

edit to suit

 

 

ida x

[rory32]

Changed Ida's letter a bit :)

 

Account Number:

 

Dear Eejits

 

Thank you for your letter dated xx/xx/xx, in which you confirm that there is no executed credit agreement relating to the above referenced account and confirming that all collection activity will cease.

 

While admitting no liability for the account and the sum claimed as owing, I am willing to offer the sum of £xx as an ex−gratia payment in full and final settlement of the account.

 

This offer is made on the clear understanding that neither you nor any associate company will take any further action to attempt to enforce or pursue this debt in any way whatsoever and that any and all liability on our behalf will be fully discharged on receipt of the above stated monies.

 

This offer is made on the condition that of all adverse entries regarding this account are removed from our credit files with the credit reference agencies.

 

Payment can be made within 2 weeks of receiving your written confirmation of your agreement of this offer and the subsequent terms of the offer. Please also identify your prefered method of payment and the details of making said payment.

 

Please note this offer will expire on (date - give them a couple of weeks) if no letter of unconditional acceptance is forthcoming and may not be repeated. This offer is not open to negotiation.

 

We look forward to receiving your reply.

 

Yours faithfully

Edited March 20, 2009 by rory32