6 creditors £29,000 advice please.

[allets]

Hello all.

 

I don’t know if this is the correct area to post this, but after a good look around, it seemed to be the best area.

 

I was a self employed property renovator until May 2008, until the work dried up, due to the present economic climate.

 

Having 4 credit card debts and a personal loan to pay, totalling £29,282, I decided to try to keep my head above water to try to pay them.

 

The creditors are,

CitiCards,

Lloyds Tsb credit card,

NatWest credit card,

Capital One credit card and finally

Northern Rock personal loan.

 

By doing car boot sales and Ebay, I managed to put off the inevitable until October 2008. I called the first creditor due for payment (CitiCards credit card) and explained my position.

 

Over the next couple of weeks, I wrote to the other creditors, explaining my unemployment situation.

 

I called the CCCS on 5 December 2008 and waited for a telephone appointment scheduled for the 15 December. After going through our inc/exp they drew up a list of my creditors, suggesting a recommended offer to each of them.

 

I started the first payment on 29 December 2008 to each of the creditor together with a covering letter explaining my position, who I had been in touch with (CCCS), together with my CCCS client reference number, a copy of the CCCS client expenditure summary, stating how much I had left to pay them all (£35), a list to each of the creditors showing how much I owed to each of them and a recommended amount to be paid to each of them.

A couple of the creditors asked for their own inc/exp sheets to be completed, which I have done.

 

To date only one creditor (Northern Rock) has agreed to accept my reduced payment offer. This is for £6 until the end of February 2009, when it will be reviewed.

 

Yesterday (25 February), I received a letter from Sechiari Clark & Mitchell Solicitors acting on behalf of Lloyds Tsb with a formal demand to repay the account balance of £9,346. Failure to pay this within 7 days from receipt of this letter, court proceedings may be instigated.

 

I have offered as the recommended payment and have been paying £12 each month to Lloyds Tsb. Now I know that this is not a great amount, but in comparison to Northern Rock, I owe them £5,207 and pay them £6 each month, so in fairness £12 to Lloyds Tsb with a debt of £9,346 is a pro rata payment in proportion to the size of the debt.

 

Today (25 February) I received a letter from Lloyds Tsb stating that my offer was not acceptable, but we are open to a more realistic offer. 

First of all, what do I need to do about the solicitor’s letter?

Secondly, I can’t at this moment in time offer anymore to Lloyds Tsb, so what should I tell them?

 

By the way after advice from the CCCS, I only communicate to the creditors by letter, as at first I was getting bombarded with telephone calls, but these have slowly dried up.

 

The other three creditors at the moment have not responded, but still keep accepting my payments and sending me monthly statements, with added interest.

 

I feel so miffed, as I did what I thought was the correct course of action, notifying all the creditors of my plight, before things got out of hand (as all consumer debt advice companies urge you to do), but I feel as though I am banging my head against the wall.

 

I have kept all correspondence, paperwork, etc.

 

Sorry for the long winded posting, but it just goes to show that dealing with most financial companies, the task is not easy.

 

Regards,

Allets.

[MARTIN3030]

Welcome to the site.

I will move your thread into the debt forums and re-title.

Each of these creditors will need to be looked at-as you have tried to do.Sechiari Clark & Mitchell seem to be the one that needs immediate attention-I think you should seperately have another thread for this one.

I would put this in legal issues (in the debt forums)with a brief outline of what you have said here.

[cerberusalert]

First send them a CCA request to see if they are entitled to collect this debt & if it's enforcable. They have 12 + 2 days to comply to your request. If they fail or the CCA is unenforcable you can legally withold any payment until they do. Send it recorded delivery enclosing a £1 postal order. When you get a reply, scan it & remove any identifying details and post it back here where we can have a look at it. We'll advise you from there;

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re:- Account No: XXXXXXXX/Your Reference Number: XXXXXXX

 

This letter is a formal request pursuant to s.77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I require you to provide me with a true copy of the credit agreement relating to the above account, together with any other documentation the Act requires you to provide.

 

I expect you to comply fully and properly with this request, within the statutory time limit. You are reminded that should you fail to comply with my request, the provisions of s.77 will apply.

 

If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA 1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties.

 

Your attention is drawn to ss.5(2), 3(b),6 and 7 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR).

 

I enclose a postal order in the sum of £1.00, which is the statutory fee. Note that these funds are not to be used for any other purpose.

 

If you are unable to comply fully and properly with this request, you should confirm this in writing at the earliest opportunity, and certainly within the statutory time limit for compliance, and return the fee.

 

You should also note that I will only discuss this matter in writing and should it be your intention to arrange a “doorstep call”, please be advised that under OFT rules, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have no wish to make an appointment with you or any of your associates.

 

There is only an implied license under English Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives to visit me at my property and if you do so, then you will be liable to damages for a tort of trespass and action will be taken, including but not limited to, police attendance.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

 

(Print do not sign signature)

[rory32]

Hi and welcome to CAG.

 

When roughly were the cards and loan taken out?

 

Are there any charges on these accounts and if so what percentage of the balance do you think these might be?

 

Are you a homeowner?

 

These are non priority debts and what they are simply doing is stamping their feet a bit and throwing their toys around a bit at the moment because they know they are at the bottom of the heap in terms of getting paid.

 

If they took you to court and you admitted the debt then you could apply for a time order. This would give you time to pay and would probably be set at around the amount you are currently paying. Also interest would be frozen as these are consumer debts.

 

I would also add that judges generally take a dim view of creditors who take people to court when you are attempting, to the best of your ability, to pay it.

[cerberusalert]

The reason I'm suggesting that you send your creditors a CCA request is because a lot of CC & loan agreements are unenforceable, particularly the older ones. Those that are uncollectable can be more or less forgotten about giving you the chance to concentrate on the others and possibly offer them more from your disposable income.

[allets]

Been dealing with various creditors since October 2008.

 

Northern Rock personal loans have accepted reduced payments until Feb 2010.

 

Capital One credit card have yet to reply, same with CitiBank credit card.

 

NatWest credit card sent me a inc/exp form to fill in on 6 Feb 2009, yet to hear from them.

 

This despite all the creditors having an inc/exp form sent to them all, drawn up by the CCCS together with a list of all creditors and a suggested monthly payable amount, again from the CCCS including Lloyds Tsb.

 

On Tues 24 Feb I received a letter from Sechiari, Clark & Mitchell making a formal demand on me to repay the account balance in full.

 

I could do with some advice on how to respond to them.

 

Also yesterday Wed 25 feb, I received a letter from Lloyds Tsb stating "having reviewed the information, we cannot accept the payment proposals in this department.

 

Our action will continue and following the issue of a default notice and formal demand, the account will be passed to our CDR dept.

 

Should you be able to submit a more realistic offer please call us on 0845-----------".

 

I refuse to answer the telephone or call them, as letters to and from are a more permanent record.

I could also do with some advice on how to respond to this as well please.

It just seems never ending after going on for the last 4 months.

Regards.

[42man]

Have you considered sending off for copies of your agreements ?

[DocH]

On Tues 24 Feb I received a letter from Sechiari, Clark & Mitchell making a formal demand on me to repay the account balance in full.

I could do with some advice on how to respond to them.

 

 

Hi allets,

 

I have had a read of your other thread, and for the moment this particular aspect of it needs to treated as your priority, as **** are threatening court action.

 

Please have a read of this thread:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

 

You will need to get the letter at Post #2 off to the solicitors as soon as possible. Please send by either Recorded or Special Delivery so that you can use Royal Mail's track and trace service. This will provide you with proof of when the letter was received.

[allets]

Hello all.

 

Martin3030. I have done as you said and posted a brief outline and a link to the original post as you suggested.

 

rory32.

As far as I can remember these are the following years I obtained the credit cards (has anyone kept the original applications or copied them for future use)?

 

Citibank credit card 2002.

Capital One credit card 2002.

NatWest credit card 2003.

Lloyds Tsb/Amex dual airmiles credit card, I think that this was 2006 and vaguely remember filling in an application form.

Northern Rock personal loan May 2005.

 

There are some charges to the credit card accounts, mainly late payment fees, but i would think that the whole amount of late payment fees would add up to less than £200 across the whole creditors.

 

Yes we are home owners, in joint names, all the debts are to me not my wife.

 

We negotiated an extension to our mortgage to reduce the monthly payments and we are around 5 months in front with the mortgage and 2nd mortgage secured on property.

 

Cerberusalert. I have seen various postings about a CCA request.

Would this not put me in a bad light whilst fighting for a reduced monthly payment plan?

 

Regards.

[rory32]

Citibank credit card 2002.

Capital One credit card 2002.

NatWest credit card 2003.

These are your prime suspects for non enforceable agreements. The Lloyds/AMEX may be too if it was an application form.

 

I have seen various postings about a CCA request.

Would this not put me in a bad light whilst fighting for a reduced monthly payment plan?

Not at all. Quite the opposite really. The CCA request is simply a legal request. If the company concerned does not have an enforceable agreement you have far more negotiating room with them.

[MARTIN3030]

Its your right to request them-even though they will know why you are asking.If they can be seen to be penalising you for that then they can be reported.

I would just exercise a little caution with your Citi one and advise you to read the Citi forum beforehand.

Citi have been unable to supply many early agreements,in fact they have not been able to supply many at all.

[allets]

Thanks to all regarding the requesting of my CCA's with the creditors. I will make a start with them on Monday.

I take it they could use a delaying ploy if it goes to court and produce them at the last minute, if they have them.

Just out of interest, are they stored on microfilm, or are they the original paper documents?

Regards,

allets.

[cerberusalert]

I take it they could use a delaying ploy if it goes to court and produce them at the last minute, if they have them.

 

If they tried that you could send a 'NOTICE UNDER CIVIL PROCEDURE RULES' prior to any court case to see what evidence they were going to produce.

 

Just out of interest, are they stored on microfilm, or are they the original paper documents?

 

Different companies have different storage methods, but the older the agreement the more chance it'll be on microfilche.

[allets]

I have posted off requests for CCA's to the above four creditors.

Is it worth requesting one from Northern Rock? This is a unsecured personal loan, not a credit card.

In the meantime, I have been served a default notice by Capital One. Does this have implications with the procedures involved and possible outcome of none CCA compliance?

 

Regards, Allets.

[cerberusalert]

Yes you can CCA Northern Rock too.

 

In the meantime, I have been served a default notice by Capital One. Does this have implications with the procedures involved and possible outcome of none CCA compliance?

 

If you haven't kept up payments this is normal & doesn't effect any CCA requests.

[allets]

Ok, thanks for that. I will post them up here when, if I receive them.

[cds]

I think you need to split these into the relevant forums natwest ....etc

people will find it difficult to respond effectively with them all on one thread.

 

cds

[lickthewallfatboy]

well,for a kick off there is no signed agreement with enforceable terms.....

 

but look very closely at the T&c's.....

 

do you see what the default charges amount to?

 

£12

 

IN OTHER WORDS THEY ARE THE NEW T&C'S ADOPTED AFTER THE OFT ENQUIRY INTO CREDIT CARD CHARGES!!

 

I'm assuming you took these cards out a few years back......in that case they haven't even been able to supply you with the relevant t&c's from the time you applied

[cerberusalert]

I take it from these scans; the above does not represent my original CCA with NatWest.

What would be my next stage in dealings with NatWest? They also provided me with the documents on 4th April which was 1 day over the 12 + 2 day requirement. Am I being a bit picky with this point?

 

Send them this;

 

 

Account In Dispute

 

Ref:

 

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

 

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. A copy of which is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.

 

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE**.(12+2 days after you sent the CCA request)

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore;

 

You are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation. This limit has expired

 

As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have Failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested, any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS. Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data. It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends. Should you not respond within 21 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit. You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint. I therefore request a copy of your official complaints procedure which you are obliged to supply.

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

The last two pages have been edited to take out my identity, but all the relevant details were filled in with my handwriting. But it says at the top of the form, “Air Miles Duo Credit Card Application Form”.

Is this valid as an application form?

 

This is enforceable as it does contain the prescribed conditions.

 

With regards to Cap1 did they not send your CCA? If not send the letter above.

[allets]

Hello to all.

 

Sorry if this is in the wrong area, but could not find anywhere else suitable.

 

Excuse the long post but bear with me.

 

Although I have not posted on here for a while, I have been a frequent viewer of what is happening during the current financial storm.

 

As a quick re-cap.

 

Work dried up in 2008 as I was self employed. At the time I owed approximately the following:

 

Northern Rock personal loan £5000.00

 

Lloyds Tsb cc £9250.00

 

NatWest cc £5000.00

 

Citibank cc £9000.00

 

Capital one cc £1750.00

 

I have been managing to pay small payments to Lloyds, Northern Rock and NatWest. None of the accounts have had PPI on them.

 

Citibank has had nothing since March 2009 and after receiving a letter from them in June 2009 stating that Citibank no longer have a contractual agreement with me, nor seeking to enforce any agreement against me, I have not gone any further with this. Last correspondence from OC or DCA was March 2010.

 

Capital One has had nothing since February 2009. After requesting my CCA from them and not receiving it in the statutory timescale (still not received to this day), and despite being chased for the debt with 3 different DCA’s, last correspondence from OC or DCA was September 2009.

 

Now to the crunch. I have been in and out of employment since December 2009 (all part time jobs) and have been keeping our heads above water (just). The wife has had her incapacity cut (long term disabled) as she has lost her latest assessment, even though she has got slightly worse since her last assessment (over a year ago).

 

We are up to date with our mortgage and all other bills, but shortly will have to seriously cut our payments to Lloyds, Northern Rock andNatWest.

 

In July 2009 I received a letter from Lloyds offering a full and final settlement (without prejudice) of £4500 against a debt of £9000. At the time I was in no position to pay this so I chose to ignore it.

 

We are in a position (or shortly will be) to make a FFS offer as the wife has been left some money in a will from a relative. The amount is around £7000. This will enable us to offer a pro rata settlement to each creditor of around 40%.

 

Given that I had this offer from Lloyds (in July 2009 and can send copy of letter when I write to them with proposal), would Lloyds accept the offer, would the other creditors? Am I going in too high at 40% or should I offer less? Would we be better to pay off our mortgage (£7000 is about what we owe)?

 

We really would like to get shot of the three creditors once and for all.

 

Regards, Allets.

[dx100uk]

the important dates here are the default dates from your cra file.

 

i would certainly not F&F anyone

till your have [where necessary ] :

 

CCA everone [bar bank account]

 

SAR each group and get ALL THE statements for each debt

 

get reclaiming

 

example

 

if LLoyds [or anyone on any other debt]

 

has ever offered a DISCOUNT, there is a reason FIND IT.

 

dx

[Let Them Knock]

 

Work dried up in 2008 as I was self employed. At the time I owed approximately the following:

 

Northern Rock personal loan £5000.00

 

Lloyds Tsb cc £9250.00

 

NatWest cc £5000.00

 

Citibank cc £9000.00

 

Capital one cc £1750.00

 

I have been managing to pay small payments to Lloyds, Northern Rock and NatWest. None of the accounts have had PPI on them.

 

Citibank has had nothing since March 2009 and after receiving a letter from them in June 2009 stating that Citibank no longer have a contractual agreement with me, nor seeking to enforce any agreement against me, I have not gone any further with this. Last correspondence from OC or DCA was March 2010. This should be Statute barred 6 years after your last payment to them. All they can do is ask you to pay.

 

Capital One has had nothing since February 2009. After requesting my CCA from them and not receiving it in the statutory timescale (still not received to this day), and despite being chased for the debt with 3 different DCA’s, last correspondence from OC or DCA was September 2009. This too should be Statute barred 6 years after your last payment to them. Unless/until they can come up with an agreement it is unenforceable. Again all they can do is ask you to pay.

 

Now to the crunch. I have been in and out of employment since December 2009 (all part time jobs) and have been keeping our heads above water (just). The wife has had her incapacity cut (long term disabled) as she has lost her latest assessment, even though she has got slightly worse since her last assessment (over a year ago).

 

We are up to date with our mortgage and all other bills, but shortly will have to seriously cut our payments to Lloyds, Northern Rock andNatWest.

 

In July 2009 I received a letter from Lloyds offering a full and final settlement (without prejudice) of £4500 against a debt of £9000. At the time I was in no position to pay this so I chose to ignore it. Be suspicious of them offering you a F&F. It suggests that they do not have confidence in being unable to enforce this debt. Investigate it further.

 

We are in a position (or shortly will be) to make a FFS offer as the wife has been left some money in a will from a relative. The amount is around £7000. This will enable us to offer a pro rata settlement to each creditor of around 40%.

 

Given that I had this offer from Lloyds (in July 2009 and can send copy of letter when I write to them with proposal), would Lloyds accept the offer, would the other creditors? Am I going in too high at 40% or should I offer less? Would we be better to pay off our mortgage (£7000 is about what we owe)? See above.

 

We really would like to get shot of the three creditors once and for all. I understand this sentiment but do not rush into this. As you have already been well advised.by DX, ensure debts are enforceable first. Do your homework - the stronger your bargaining position the better..

 

Regards, Allets.

 

In summary, take your time, keep a paper trail. Only communicate in writing, NEVER by telephone. Report back here for advice as you progress.

Good luck..

 

All the above in my opinion but it has all worked for me.

[allets]

Firstly thanks to dx100uk & Let Them Knock for some advice.

 

Dx100uk

 

I CCA’ed Lloyds Tsb and Natwest back in 2009. As far as I can tell the CCA from Lloyds is enforceable. I can post up here if you wish to see, along with my Natwest CCA.

 

I never bothered applying for my Northern Rock CCA as I have the original application form myself. Perhaps I should apply for it to see if NRock actually have a copy.

 

Regarding default notices.

 

Lloyds Tsb served a default notice in January 2009. After some very hostile letters from them, they finally agreed to a regular monthly payment. This was to be reviewed every six months. It has been on going since then. I have ignored the review letters that I have been receiving stating this account is now due for review regarding your monthly payments. They have not taken any further action and interest has been suspended throughout the time I have been making payments.

 

Natwest served a default notice in December 2008. Little opposition to an agreed monthly payment started in January 2009. Again a review letter is sent every six months, which I have ignored and interest has been suspended throughout the time I have been making payments.

 

Northern Rock (now NRam) served a default notice in June 2009. A payment agreement was reached amicably in January 2009. No interest added as interest is loaded up front as this is a personal loan.

 

Regarding Citibank and Capital One. I think that they know that these are unenforceable and have given up chasing them.

 

Let Them Knock.

 

I am suspicious regarding the FFS Lloyds Tsb offered, but as yet I cannot find anything iffy as to why they would make this offer.

 

I have not SARed any of these creditors, so I suppose this should be my next step. What can be discovered in a SAR?

 

I forgot to ask in previous post. What would be the position regarding our home? At the moment we owe around £7000, so we have a good equity(around £60,000) in it. Could they force us to sell it, or just place a charge on it?

 

Regards,

Allets.

[dx100uk]

for debts of that level i doubt a CO and certainly not a forced sale

 

you need to sar everyone.

 

like lloyds

 

there is a reason for the discount

the sar will give ALL the statements & comms logs etc etc

 

 

other debts might have penalty charges or PPI or ins you do not know about

 

dx