Moorcroft response to CCA request - bit confused!

[Lola2806]

I have a Halifax debt & am in a DMP with CCCS. In January I was contacted by Moorcroft as they had taken over the debt & had the usual loads of phonecalls/letters demanding payments despite me informing them that I was in a DMP & updating the details with CCCS.

After reading on here I decided to sent CCA requests out & did so on 19th Feb. Today I've had a response from Moorcroft - but I am confused by it so hoping someone might know what they are on about!

 

This is what they said in the letter:

 

" Dear ******

 

RE: Moorcroft Ref: ****

Client Ref: ****

 

I refer to your recent correspondence. We are continuing to seek to obtain a copy of the Consumer Credit Agreement that you have requested. Our systems provide reviews to be sent to our client on a regular basis and this we are continuing to do. I will contact you again just as soon as the agreement has been made available to ourselves and confirm that at this stage the account has been placed on hold and that we will not seek to enforce the debt until such time as the agreement is obtained.

 

In the meantime however we believe that it may be of assistance to all parties if we also take this opportunity to ensure that any potential areas of dispute are addressed prior to any possible court action or further investigation. Please could you give an indication of the information you will be providing, when giving evidence to the court or providing information to the relevant statutory authorities in relation to the alleged subject matter of the account.

 

Please could you provide this information by return. We believe that this is a simple request that will assist in ensuring that all possible areas of dispute are identified as quickly as possible and potential costs and delays kept to a minimum level.

 

I thank you for your assistnce and patience in this regard.

 

Yours sincerely

 

*****

Operational Support Supervisor "

 

Now, obviously I haven't got a copy of the CCA yet, (I have no idea if I signed one as the credit card was issued to me in 2003) so as yet I do not know if it's enforceable. Until I know this, I don't know how I will be proceeding. Is it normal practice for a debt recovery company to send a letter like this?

[bazaar]

Thats a standard templated letter they have sent you.

Dont worry about it, just keep it for later on. When they default on your CCA request, you MUST send them an 'account in dispute' letter. There are templates available so dont worry too much on the wording.

Just One of the areas of dispute, you'll be relying on is their apparent lack of legal right to process your data without a signed agreement, so work out the time limits for the CCA its 12 +2 days, get reading on the site, ask as many questions as you like, no matter how small they seem.

[cerberusalert]

Send the idiots this;

 

Account In Dispute

 

Ref:

 

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

 

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. A copy of which is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.

 

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE**.(12+2 days after you sent the CCA request)

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore;

 

You are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation. This limit has expired

 

As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have Failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested. Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS. Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data. It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends. Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit. You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint. I therefore request a copy of your official complaints procedure which you are obliged to supply.

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

[Lola2806]

Thanks to both of you! I will wait for the 12+2 to be up & if I have nothing from them then I'll send the second letter out. I'm guessing if they can't find the CCA they will pass the debt back to Halifax?

[cerberusalert]

It depends on whether they are acting for Halifax or if they've purchased the debt as to what they'll do next. Not that it matters because without an enforceable CCA they're stuffed.

[Lola2806]

Well I'm keeping my fingers crossed that there isn't one, lol!

[Lola2806]

I've had a reply from Moorcroft today:

 

" Dear ***

Please find enclosed a copy of the relevant agreement under the Consumer Credit Act in relation to the above account. I also return your payment of £1 submitted in respect of your request.

I can confirm that I have placed your account on hold until 21st April 2009 and request you make immediate contact with our cll centre on the above telephone number to discuss a repayment proposal you can afford and maintain.

Yours sincerely

*** "

 

They have attached an extremely unclear photocopy of my credit card application form. It also states Credit Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 at the top. It has the following sections on it:

 

1) Your name and address (all correct)

2) Your personal details (has DOB, time at address, residential status, phone number, marital status, number of children & mothers maiden name)

3) Your home (not completed as I was living with family, so no mortgage etc)

4) Your employment (Employers name & address, occupation, time in employment & phone number all correct)

5) Financial detail (time with Halifax, accounts, other bank/buildig society accounts & no of credit/carge/store cards)

6) Income & expenditure (Gross annual income & outgoings)

7) Additional cardholder (not completed)

8) Product details (boxes to tick for Credit Card Repayments Cover & Halifax Card Protection)

9) Principal cardholder's application and declaration - Loads of text (some I'm unable to read) including stuff about Halifax checking my credit rating and how they may refuse my application. Credit scoring, Data protection act & your right to cancel.

 

I have signed it, as have Halifax.

 

There are no details about my credit limit, APR, terms of repayment, nothing about penalty charges etc. So to me it is basically an application form! It's not a good copy (I need a magnifying glass to read parts of it!) but I will try to get it scanned up over the weekend if I can find someone with one!

 

However, am I right in thinking that if it's not got the prescribed terms (on it or with it) that makes it unenforcable? I was a bit surprised that they returned my payment too!

 

Thanks in advance!

[cerberusalert]

Send them this;

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

This account is in Dispute .

 

On xx/xx/2007 I wrote to xxxxxxxxx requesting that xxxxxxx supply me a true copy of the executed credit agreement for this account. In response to this request I was supplied a mere application form which did not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The document sent purporting to be a credit agreement does not contain any of the prescribed terms as required by section 60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) made under the authority of the “1974 Act” sets out what the prescribed terms are, I refer you to Schedule 6 Column 2 of SI 1983/1553 for the definition of what is required. Suffice to say none of the terms are present in the document

 

Since this document does not contain the required prescribed terms it is rendered unenforceable by s127 (3) consumer Credit Act 1974, which states

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This situation is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

In addition should you continue to pursue me for this debt you will be in breach of the OFT guidelines, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I refer to page 5 of the guidance which states;

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment.

 

I require you to produce a compliant copy of my credit agreement to confirm I am liable to you or any organisation, which you represent for this alleged debt, if you cannot do so I require written clarification that this is the case. Should you ignore this request I will report you to the Office of Fair Trading to consider your suitability to hold a credit licence in addition to a complaint to Trading Standards, as you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40

 

Since the agreement is unenforceable it would be in everyone’s interest to consider the matter closed and for your client to write the debt off. I suggest you give serious consideration to this as any attempt of litigation will be vigorously defended and I will counter claim for all quantifiable damages

 

I respectfully request a response to this letter in 14 days

 

 

I trust this out lines the situation

[Lola2806]

Finally got to a scanner! This is the "credit agreement" that they sent me:

 

[cerberusalert]

Unenforceable garbage.

[Lola2806]

Unenforceable garbage.

 

Exactly what I thought! Just waiting for them to respond to my letter now. They have called every day so far, but I've ignored them (thank heavens for caller id!)

[Lola2806]

Well, I've had no reply to the letter I sent, and the phonecalls stopped after about a week (when I think they realised I wouldn't speak to them)!

 

Just have a little question though. I checked my credit report today, and Halifax (who this debt was originally with) are down as one of my creditors & have it marked as defaulted in Dec 2008, but there is no mention of Moorcroft on here at all, which I am a bit confused about. Is this normal? They did receive a couple of payments through my DMP before I decided to do the CCA request, so I would have expected them to be on the report. Or is it just a case of it takes time for them to show up on a report?

[cerberusalert]

Only one default can be registered on a debt although the status can be updated monthly.

[Lola2806]

Ah ok, guess that makes sense!

 

Got a letter from Moorcroft today:

 

"We write in reference to your recently received letter and regret to advise that we are unable to comply with your request as we are no longer dealing with this account. For the avoidance of doubt you should resubmit your request to the client."

So I am guessing that the debt has gone back to Halifax now, wonder how long before I hear from them! I was never 100% sure if Moorcroft had bought the debt, or were just acting for Halifax anyway. If I do hear from Halifax should I CCA them, even though I know they don't have an enforcable agreement? Or just send them a letter saying that I was given a copy of the agreement by Moorcroft & it's unenforcable... or just ignore them, lol!

[cerberusalert]

If & when Halifax, or anyone else for that matter, gets in touch just send the 'In Dispute' letter.

[Lola2806]

Just a little update! I now will be having the pleasure of dealing with Westcot Credit Services Ltd (anyone heard of them?) , who wrote me a lovely letter to tell me that they are dealing with the debt now on behalf of Halifax. Lots of red lettering & things in bold to try & make them look scary, plus the information about legal proceedings & debt collectors blah blah blah. The best bit is the little section for instructions which has 2 sections; "Yes all details are correct and you intend to pay call ***" and "NO you have a genuine reason not to pay this debt call ***" the numbers are identical, lol! Will be sending off the dispute letter tomorrow, seeing as they are demanding a reply by 14th July. Had a few calls already, but I just let the answerphone get it, or my other half. I think I will inform them in the letter that I'll only deal with them in writing so to stop phoning.

 

Funny thing is they also sent a debt letter to the previous tenant at my address! My other half opened it & phoned to tell them that the person they were after doesn't live here & hasn't for over a year. Seeing as the debt they were chasing was only £16-odd I don't think they will try too hard to find her.

[cerberusalert]

Seeing as the debt they were chasing was only £16-odd I don't think they will try too hard to find her.

 

Dunno tho', DCAs are having hard times & every sheckle counts.