Contract query

[Tau]

I started a company with a friend of mine 3 years or so ago. I had to leave the partnership after about a year due you my financial circumstances(I went bankrupt:( and didnt want any problems for my x partner)

Once I had been discharged I went back to work with my x partner as an employee, we had remained friends and still are.

 

When we finally got our contracts, it was stated that we would generally work 50 hours a week, but only get paid for the actuall hours that we worked.

We do get paid holiday pay of 24 days a year inc bank holidays. If we have no work for a day, he expects us to take a days holiday.

We have asked many times for copies of our contracts but they never appear.

 

The business that we are in is the supply and installation of shop front roller shutters etc, my boss seems to think that we are in the security industry and so are exempt from the working time directive and driving hours. I can be driving for 10 hours plus a day sometimes.

None of us have signed out of the WTD although my boss says we have by agreeing to the 50 hours a week.

 

Also are there any driving hour regulations governing vehicles up to 3.5 tons gross weight.

 

BTW there are three engineers and five office staff, talk about cheifs and indians

 

All thoughts appreciated.

[godpikachu]

When we finally got our contracts, it was stated that we would generally work 50 hours a week, but only get paid for the actuall hours that we worked.

We do get paid holiday pay of 24 days a year inc bank holidays. If we have no work for a day, he expects us to take a days holiday.

We have asked many times for copies of our contracts but they never appear.

 

You dont have to take a days holiday if he doesnt have any work available for you, its up to you when you take your holidays, you cant be forced into taking them.

Also, your employer has a legal obligation to provide you with a copy of your contract within 2 months of you starting there. This is a legal requirement and cannot be circumnavigated.

 

 

The business that we are in is the supply and installation of shop front roller shutters etc, my boss seems to think that we are in the security industry and so are exempt from the working time directive and driving hours. I can be driving for 10 hours plus a day sometimes.

None of us have signed out of the WTD although my boss says we have by agreeing to the 50 hours a week.

 

NO ONE is exempt from working time directive OR driving hours.

You can sign an opt out form stating you would be willing to work more than 48 hours per week, but this is completley optional.

The driving hours regulation exists for health and saftey and insurance reasons, it cannot be ignored and anyone who is regularly driving for long hours per day shold really have a tachograph in the vehicle to record the driving and rest times.

 

Id suspect your boss wouldnt be too pleased if he got a phone call from the police and was told that you had been involved in a major accident because youd dozed off at the wheel.

[flyingdoc]

anyone who is regularly driving for long hours per day shold really have a tachograph in the vehicle to record the driving and rest times.

 

The requirement for a tachograph is not quite as straightforward as simply anyone who drives for long hours. NTTA Safe & Legal Towing - Trailers & Tachographs

 

NO ONE is exempt from working time directive

 

also not quite correct - there are derogations from the working time directive, specifically in the healthcare industry, but I cannot see any that apply to the security industry (although I stand to be corrected on this point) and godpikachu is correct regarding the opt out

 

Id suspect your boss wouldnt be too pleased if he got a phone call from the police and was told that you had been involved in a major accident because youd dozed off at the wheel.

 

employers can be held liable for prosecution in such cases

[godpikachu]

The requirement for a tachograph is not quite as straightforward as simply anyone who drives for long hours. NTTA Safe & Legal Towing - Trailers & Tachographs

 

ah right, well i wasnt quite sure, but youd assume that if driving makes up a large part of the job then theyd have to have some method of measuring rest times etc for health and saftey reasons.

 

 

 

also not quite correct - there are derogations from the working time directive, specifically in the healthcare industry, but I cannot see any that apply to the security industry (although I stand to be corrected on this point) and godpikachu is correct regarding the opt out

 

well, being as he fits shutters to shops, i cant see his boss being able to justify exempt status in any way.

Also, while i think on, this job in no way qualifies as a "security" job, i can find no reference what so ever on the SIA website to people who are basically shop fitters having to hold an SIA badge, which is now a requirement for anyone working in security.

 

employers can be held liable for prosecution in such cases

 

 

hence why the boss wouldnt be pleased if he had been driving for 12 hours straight and he dozed off and caused an accident.

[Tau]

Thanks for the input fella's

Would you happen to have a link to the driving hours. I have tried to find them but not had any joy.

Also would you know if there are any minimum limits for rest periods, eg end of work till start of work(overnight rest breaks) not for the driving side but in general. We can get home after midnight and have to be out again at five the following morning.

 

I agree with you on the security side of things and would have thought that type of job would have been security guard or police etc.

[Tau]

Another thing, we can sit at home nearly all day waiting for a job to come in, would we be within our rights to refuse to do that job, seeing that we only get paid for the hours that we work.

Our contracts IIRC dont state a starting or finishing time on them.

[godpikachu]

Thanks for the input fella's

Would you happen to have a link to the driving hours. I have tried to find them but not had any joy.

Also would you know if there are any minimum limits for rest periods, eg end of work till start of work(overnight rest breaks) not for the driving side but in general. We can get home after midnight and have to be out again at five the following morning.

 

 

HERE is a link to the driving and work time regulations, enforced by VOSA.

 

I agree with you on the security side of things and would have thought that type of job would have been security guard or police etc.

 

yeah, your job is not a security job, the only type of security job which is exempt from SIA regulation is "in house" security work, however this is under review.

Your job is basically that of a shop fitter, you fit shutters/blinds to shop windows and doors, you do not hold a key for them, you do not provide security for the stores or the staff, and you do not monitor CCTV, therefore, you are not a security worker, you simply install and maintain security equipment.

I know someone who does the exact same job as you and they are not classed as security officers so basically your boss is trying it on, probably so that he can use it as a flimsy excuse to say that you are exempt from work time regulation, which he is wrong about anyway.

[godpikachu]

Another thing, we can sit at home nearly all day waiting for a job to come in, would we be within our rights to refuse to do that job, seeing that we only get paid for the hours that we work.

Our contracts IIRC dont state a starting or finishing time on them.

 

hard to say without seeing your contract really, but it sounds like you are employed on an "as and when" basis, as such, depending on the exact terms of oyur employment, you would normally be able to refuse work if it wasnt convenient, unless your contract stipulates that you are to be "on call" during certain hours.

[Tau]

I would like to see my contract as well, despite asking many times it has not been forth coming, hence I am going off of memory.

 

I suspect that the contract is not worth the paper its written on as it was dreampt up by my boss on his own and he's always right

 

I am basically a driver for the trained engineer as he doesn't drive, I also assist him on new installations and repairs so I would imagine that I would be well over any driving hour regs on quite a few occassions, seeing that I am basically at work from the moment im in the van untill i get home. We dont take a lunch break either.

[Tau]

PS

The money is lousy as well.

Worked just over 80 hours a while back and only took £500 inc expenses

[godpikachu]

I would like to see my contract as well, despite asking many times it has not been forth coming, hence I am going off of memory.

 

I suspect that the contract is not worth the paper its written on as it was dreampt up by my boss on his own and he's always right

 

Demand a copy of it in writing, reminding your employer of his obligation to provide you with a copy of it within 2 months of your employment commencing.

 

Also, from the sounds of it id agree its probably not worth the paper its written on as it sounds like your boss is a complete ignorant idiot.

 

 

I am basically a driver for the trained engineer as he doesn't drive, I also assist him on new installations and repairs so I would imagine that I would be well over any driving hour regs on quite a few occassions, seeing that I am basically at work from the moment im in the van untill i get home. We dont take a lunch break either.

 

well, there you go then, you are definitly not a security worker.

 

PS

The money is lousy as well.

Worked just over 80 hours a while back and only took £500 inc expenses

 

thats crap, it works out at about £6.25 an hour. there are plenty of other driving jobs out ther that pay more than that and are working for reputable firms who dont mess you about.

[BeauBrummie]

Hi all,

 

Could I just pick up a couple of points as stated by previous posters.

 

It is my understanding that as soon as you become employed on the first minute of the first day you and your employer are governed by the WTR.

Now if an employer does not issue a "contract of employment" you still have one as you have a verbal agreement with an employer to work for them. You would not turn up to work in a place of work if you were not invited to.

 

Under the WTR minimum standards and practices are laid down for the benefit of employee & employer alike.

 

A "Statement of Terms and conditions" pertaining to the place of work and local working practices should be issued within 8 weeks of your start of employment along with perhaps a staff handbook giving more detail of the employers policies across at that place of work.

 

If this is not issued then the WTR applies in its entirety.

 

Regarding holiday entitlements, I would question the fact that you cannot be forced to take holiday. With the increase in entitlements from 4.8 to 5.6 weeks (capped at 28 days) from April 1 09 I think we will see this practice more often as employers realise that it is up to them to ensure that they comply with the regs.

 

An employer must be seen to give their staff at least the Statutory minimum time off as above, if they do not then that is a breach of the WTR, and an employee potentially could use this fact against an employer in certain circumstances.

 

Tau, if you have not signed an "absence request form" then you could raise a greivance regarding your employers use of your holiday, by going down this route it should force your employer freind or not to look again at his practices.

 

Beau

which contains such information as

Edited February 25, 2009 by BeauBrummie
Additional info posted

[BeauBrummie]

Just a bit more to what I have already posted,

 

If you started to look you would probably find alot of employers who do not issue contracts, while this may seem a little lax on the part of the employer, in reality the issuing of this document is a "clarification" what are the working practices rights and responsibilities of all concerned parties--therefore in the abscence of a written agreement Tau could write a letter demanding that the working practices and conditions are clarified.

 

If the employer did not comply with this, it could again be grounds for a greivance.

 

Holiday entitlements in one major supermarket are now being "allocated" to their employees to enable the business to function with enough staff.

 

Beau

[Tau]

Hi Beau

Dont get me wrong, we have signed contracts but we have never been given a copy despite asking many times.

[BeauBrummie]

Hi Tau,

 

Have you requested this information in writing? if you are denied within a time limit of say 7 days of a letter to the proprietor you should respond by a further letter stating that it is now an official greivance and then give further 7 days for a reply.

 

All correspondence should be dealt with in writing to avoid confusion.

 

Is there something they do not want you to see ?

 

Beau