monkey_uk -v- HSBC CCA for g/f

[monkey_uk]

Should we have sent a DPA SAR to HSBC? I've only sent the letters copied on this thread, so not sure if I've done the right thing??

[badboybill]

Hi all, new here but hope to help a few stressed people.

Monkey, Johnny has hit the nail on the head. If they had the agreement why withhold it from you? If I wanted your money I would give you what you ask to get-it, right?

10 years ago I was taken to court by both Chartered Trust and Land of Leather. I was in court a total of 12 mins said 8 words and apologised too for wasting my time and the reason why I won my case….unenforceable credit agreement. The case was subject to both Sales of Goods Act & Consumer Credit Act 1974. I broke the golden rule on the CCA by not paying anything from start to finish 2.3k and walked away keeping the goods and not pay a penny.

All Financial Institutions who do not reply accurately to basic recorded requests lose, if, they are stupid enough to go to court.

[johnnymitch]

Thanks for that badboybill -

 

Monkey , I should have realised you didn't send a SAR -it was a CCA -

 

I would send them a SAR which should get you everything they have on you ..... but make sure you specifically ask for the credit agreement .

 

If they withhold anything from this they're really in trouble with the Information Commissioner's Office .......

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/48-bank-templates/110--data-protection-act-1998-subject-access-request-.html

 

send it 'Recorded Delivery' to :

 

HSBC Bank Plc

Service Quality Team

Arlington Business Centre

Millshaw Park Lane

Leeds

LS11 0PP

 

They have 40 days from the date of receipt to fully comply with this one - incidentally if you sign it make sure your siggy is just slightly different from usual so you can identify it if it should 'inadvertently ' appear on an agreement somewhere ...... just an extra dot or twirl somewhere ....

 

They dont need a signature , but they'll waste time arguing about that - so best to give 'em one .........

[questioning]

If you send a SAR it costs you £10. they have 42 days to respond and they should send you everything, unfortunately they will often send you just statements, other bits and pieces BUT not the all important agreement

The way to get sight of the CCA is the way you have started, CPR 31.16.

 

As you have already sent the CPR 31.16 letter if after 21 days they have not sent the agreement you send the reminder letter, found in the CPR31.16 thread here....

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.htm

 

the reply you received from the OS said they could not locate it at the moment and it seems like they have replied as if it was a CCA request, which it wasn't.

The second letter (from the Pt's thread linked above) is your next step, you could amend it slightly to say your letter was not a sec.78 CCA request but a CPR 31.16 request.

what they mean by ""However, if required to do so to enforce the agreement we are willing to provide other evicdence that there is a credit agreement and that both parties have serviced that agreement." ??? is that they would show statements to show an account existed, this reply is talking about enforcing the agreement which they need to have, along with proof the account was serviced, it has nothing to do with your CPR letter. The 31.16 letter is for disclosure so that you can get the original document to see if it was compliant with the legislation,

Their letter was just trying to fob you off, they probably don't have the agreement so you need to follow the advise in Pt's thread above, the proceedure is set out at the beginning of the thread and SMT's thread gives a brilliant account of his experience so far in his CPR31.16 request and what happened after he sent the N244 application to the court for disclosure ........His thread is here....http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/165349-smt37-morgan-stanley-goldfish.html

Edited May 1, 2009 by questioning

[questioning]

Hi Johnny,

Monkey UK has started the CPR 31.16 procedure with the first letter already sent,

 

Hi badboybill,

I wish I had known what you knew 10 years ago, even 5 years ago.

Your experience will be most helpful and welcome at CAG.

cheers Q.x.

Edited April 29, 2009 by questioning

[johnnymitch]

Hi Johnny,

Monkey UK has started the CPR 31.16 procedure with the first letter already sent,

 

Thanks Q,x I should have noticed that ......... . Senior Moment

and thanks also for the smt link - I'll read that at my leisure .....

[questioning]

Thanks Q,x I should have noticed that ......... . Senior Moment

and thanks also for the smt link - I'll read that at my leisure .....

 

Hey Johhny, I know the feeling, I've just given a "poor eyesight" posting on R and b's thread. My eyesight is getting real bad with middle age.

All thats left to say is, we must laugh at these moments, thats what I do anyway.

[johnnymitch]

All thats left to say is, we must laugh at these moments, thats what I do anyway.

 

Nothing else for it Q ....... LOL ! :D:D

[barracad]

Also, any idea what HSBC mean by "However, if required to do so to enforce the agreement we are willing to provide other evicdence that there is a credit agreement and that both parties have serviced that agreement." ???

 

I guess what they are referring to here is that they can provide incontrivertible evidence that they lent your girlfriend money, that she took it and spent it (probably in the form of statements etc), and that she has indeed made some repayments towards it.

 

At best, this proves that there was a contract of some sort - it certainly does not prove that there is a credit agreement, as they seem to imply.

[monkey_uk]

does anyone know whether we can take this any further?

 

We have been continuing to pay the minimum payment each month, amnd have not spent anymore on the credit card.

 

We're simply stuck as to what to do next...

[monkey_uk]

Would this be an appropriate letter to send at this stage:

 

You have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, failed to send a full statement of the account and failed to provide any of the documentation requested.

 

 

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

 

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

 

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

 

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

 

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

 

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; you must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

 

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

 

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

 

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

 

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

 

 

[badboybill]

They won't give you what you want, in a hurry, until you stop paying them. Legally they can't issue a DN or mark your credit rating.

 

Remember this won't go to court unless you pay for it. They can't blacklist you because the account is in dispute so stop paying.

[pt2537]

They won't give you what you want, in a hurry, until you stop paying them. Legally they can't issue a DN or mark your credit rating.

 

Remember this won't go to court unless you pay for it. They can't blacklist you because the account is in dispute so stop paying.

this view is not likely to assist im afraid.

 

To put it simply, if you stop paying then you risk the possibility of legal action commencing.

 

If you have the original agreement and it is improperly executed then you can bring an action in the court for declaratory relief pursuant to s142 CCA 1974.

 

that is how to deal with an unenforceable agreement

[badboybill]

this view is not likely to assist im afraid.

 

To put it simply, if you stop paying then you risk the possibility of legal action commencing.

 

If you have the original agreement and it is improperly executed then you can bring an action in the court for declaratory relief pursuant to s142 CCA 1974.

 

that is how to deal with an unenforceable agreement

 

 

I totally agree. You have a choice, don't pay and wait for them to take you to court (they pay) or keep paying and you pay to take them to court.

 

When I was taken to court, and WON, the Judge explained it simply. Every action has a reaction, whoever commits the first wrong is going to lose. Think about it!!

[pt2537]

I totally agree. You have a choice, don't pay and wait for them to take you to court (they pay) or keep paying and you pay to take them to court.

 

When I was taken to court, and WON, the Judge explained it simply. Every action has a reaction, whoever commits the first wrong is going to lose. Think about it!!

LOL,

 

I litigate against all the financial institutions on a regular basis and i can say that, while you may be right, i see clients time after time that have BEEN sued and even though no agreement was available, they are instructing me to defend a charging order. it is a lottery that i personally wouldnt follow.

 

personally, id seek declaratory relief every time, letting them sue you is not an option in my view as it is grossly reckless

[badboybill]

Thanks, now everybody knows how corrupt the legal system is. You go through all these letters and where there is no agreement you still LOSE!!! Irrespective who takes who to court?

How can being sued be grossly reckless? Are you saying that every time you take people to court you are more likely to win or just reckless? What’s the % of those been taken to court losing?

Have you ever experienced defending yourself on these matters? if not then you cannot comment. Defending others is not the same as defending yourself. Try it, you'll know the difference.

The advice I give is based on my experience not the experience of others. It’s not to say its always going to be right because my circumstances will always be different from everyone else’s.

Through my own actions I chose to be taken to court by both Chartered Trust & Land of Leather and WON. Kept a 2.3k leather sofa and did not pay a penny.

[johnnymitch]

They can't blacklist you because the account is in dispute so stop paying.

 

Famous last words , badboy bill ...... they are doing it , although they're not supposed to , and you should see some of the trouble many people have had getting CRA ratings rescinded............

[monkey_uk]

So, guys, back on topic.

 

Can anyone advise me as to what to do?

 

The last word from HSBC was

"At this time we are unable to locate the document requested. However, if required to do so to enforce the agreement we are willing to provide other evicdence that there is a credit agreement and that both parties have serviced that agreement."

 

This was back on 28th April http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2133608.html

[badboybill]

To help you Monkey,

Let’s see if the people here can give you a straight answer.

Q, where no agreement is offered to enforce a debt what other evidence can a financial institution present to a court to justify a debt? If so, why is it acceptable?

In fact why would any financial institution lend money to anyone without an agreement?

[Castlebest]

They won't give you what you want, in a hurry, until you stop paying them. Legally they can't issue a DN or mark your credit rating.

 

Remember this won't go to court unless you pay for it. They can't blacklist you because the account is in dispute so stop paying.

 

Also since the County Court payment structure changed, last October I think, you now have to pay the same fee for a counter claim against whoever is suing you.

 

this view is not likely to assist im afraid.

 

To put it simply, if you stop paying then you risk the possibility of legal action commencing.

 

If you have the original agreement and it is improperly executed then you can bring an action in the court for declaratory relief pursuant to s142 CCA 1974.

 

that is how to deal with an unenforceable agreement

 

I think your best bet is to look in the credit card sections of the site and ask questions

 

pete

[badboybill]

Johnny, now you know why they won't bother with court action. Its cheaper to screw their clients by destroying their CR. Whats the point of spending all that money going to court.

[pt2537]

To help you Monkey,

 

Let’s see if the people here can give you a straight answer.

 

Q, where no agreement is offered to enforce a debt what other evidence can a financial institution present to a court to justify a debt? If so, why is it acceptable?

 

In fact why would any financial institution lend money to anyone without an agreement?

Without a signed agreement the debt is unenforceable, that is clear,

 

however the lender may just dig deep enough and find the agreement you signed within their archives and then where does that leave you? oh up sh!te creek without a paddle if youve stopped paying.

 

As for defending myself, yes, i have, successfully done so, and also managed my own claims against lenders for declaratory relief, restitution of monies paid and recovery of monies paid by mistake. I also have a case which the other side appealed to the court of appeal two years ago but settled out of court. so ive been on both sides of the fence. my wins count for over £100000 of credit but there you go, itsn ot about me or what i would do, its about advising the OP with the best possible advice IMHO and stopping paying and begging for legal action is not the best way forward.

 

it is clearly reckless to do so as you risk them finding the agreement and then the court permits them to enforce by way of order pursuant to s65(1) CCA 1974.

 

Seek declaratory relief and they can never come back at you, its dead as a dodo!!

 

that is the correct way forward,

[monkey_uk]

Seek declaratory relief and they can never come back at you, its dead as a dodo!!

 

that is the correct way forward,

 

 

How do I go about this please?

[johnnymitch]

subbing

[badboybill]

Without a signed agreement the debt is unenforceable, that is clear,

 

however the lender may just dig deep enough and find the agreement you signed within their archives and then where does that leave you? oh up sh!te creek without a paddle if youve stopped paying.

 

As you know pre action protocols dictate before you go to court and should the lender find the agreement they must submit it to the court. The court then sends all evidence to the other party who then has time to scrutinise the lenders submissions. Should the agreement be part of those submissions and be enforceable whats the point in all the letters you've been sending?

At least Monkey has the answer he was looking for.