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Me vs 1st Credit


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In late January I received a letter from 1st Credit chasing up a debt with Barclaycard. I replied to that letter, included a £1 postal order and requested a copy of the credit agreement.

 

The response I got to that letter was - the letter and postal order returned to me, and a hand written note scrawled on the back that I had to request this inormation from the original creditor.

 

On 5th February I received another letter from them chasing the debt, and again I submitted the above request which has so far been ignored.

 

I have proof of delivery of both letters.

 

Today I've recieved another threatening letter stating that my case has been passed to the "PRE LEGAL TEAM" (their emphasis, not mine).

 

What do I do now?

 

I'm a single parent reliant on state benefits which are about to take a massive nose-dive anyway due to my eldest being eighteen and my youngest deciding to go and live with my ex-wife - this will mean that my income will drop to around £60 per week. Obviously with that amount of income a will have zero cash available to service any debt, and also I am not convinced that 1st Credit even own the debt.

 

Help!

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Send the idiots this recorded delivery;

 

 

Account In Dispute

 

Ref:

 

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

 

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. A copy of which is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.

 

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE**.(12+2 days after you sent the CCA request)

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore;

 

You are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation. This limit has expired

 

As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have Failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested. Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS. Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data. It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends. Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit. You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint. I therefore request a copy of your official complaints procedure which you are obliged to supply.

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

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The response I got to that letter was - the letter and postal order returned to me, and a hand written note scrawled on the back that I had to request this inormation from the original creditor.

 

 

If they are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA 1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon them to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, they are a creditor as defined by s.189. If they contend that they purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Ok.

 

1st Credit have finally responded with a letter headed "Final Response".

 

They have also included a very badly photocopied copy of my initial application form and a two page photocopy of what appears to be a fax of Barclaycard's conditons (with a date on the second page of 12/7/06).

 

The letter states that they have sent a copy of their complaints procedure under seperate cover (which hasn't been received), and requests that I contact their offices within the next 14 days to advise how I intend to clear the debt.

 

What's my next step please?

 

My circumstances have changed since I started this thread, and I am now claiming JSA (which is another story entirely - a story of cock-ups and incompetance) and am on a significantly lower income than this time a few weeks ago.

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is it an application form and secondly when you say badly photocopied can you actually read it?

 

Yes. The form is headed "Priority application".

 

As for readability - the small print is totally unreadable, and much of the other text is hard to extremely hard to read.

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Yes. The form is headed "Priority application".

 

As for readability - the small print is totally unreadable, and much of the other text is hard to extremely hard to read.

 

I've uploaded a scan of the form if that helps.

 

http://s655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/ftw59/?action=view&current=fc1edit-1.jpg

 

(link changed)

Edited by ftw59
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Yes, it's just an application form :rolleyes:

 

Send them this:

 

Account In Dispute

 

Ref:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. A copy of which is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE**.

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore

 

 

You are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation.

 

This limit has expired.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have Failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested.

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

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  • 1 month later...

Ok. First of all, thank you all for the advice you've given up to now - long may it and CAG continue.

 

I've now had a reply from First Credit (links below), what do I do now please, as their interpretation of the law seems to differ from the advice given here.

 

Page 1: fc090416a.jpg picture by ftw59 - Photobucket

 

Page 2: fc090416b.jpg picture by ftw59 - Photobucket

 

Thanks again in advance.

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Account Number: XXX

 

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending the Application Form & your companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

 

To clarify, just sending the Application Form & Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the dispute continues

 

Yours faithfully

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for starters they have to provide you with a statement of accounts

 

and they admit that it needs a judges discretion to enforce the application form, so let them take you to court

 

or send the letter above

Edited by PGH7447
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Nice of them to accept that the application for is not an agreement though and that it is not, in its current form enforceable.

 

So this is another of those "who blinks first" competitions, since you have nothing to lose, it's really a case of whether they think the judge will come down on their side, even though you have their admission on unenforceablity and in writing LOL :D

 

How come my creditors don't act with this level of stupidly

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they are sort of right, but they have got their dates all mixed up, or they could be trying to hoodwink you by playing on your perceived lack of knowledge on recent legislation. They are correct in stating the 2006 act changes certain parts of the 1974 act, but the changes are not retrospective, and gernarally only came into play for agreements taken out after April 2007, so in your case makes no difference.

 

You could write to 1st Credit thanking them for pointing you in the direction of the 2006 amendments, telling them you'll find it useful if you need to question any agreements you entered into after April 2007 when the 2006 amendments came into effect. Point out though, that you fail to see how this is of relivance in your case as the aledged account was taken out several years ago.

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Thanks again.

 

Cerberusalert's letter will be going off later today or first thing tomorrow.

 

They seem to assume that by attempting to confuse people with confused "legalese" that people will just agree to their demands and fall in line - mind you, the ordinary man in the street who didn't know about this forum may well do so.

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  • 3 months later...

Ok, long time no post, but nothing much has been happening until today.

 

I've now received a threatogram from Mackenzie Hall.

 

This has the standard large text "IMPORTANT - DO NOT IGNORE" at the top, and goes on to state that they have been inctructed by their client to recover this overdue account.

 

They have also given me a deadline of 14th August 2009 to pay by (nice of them to get it here with two days notice).

 

What next please?

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