Hugh's CCA request to Crap 1

[Hugh Jeffort]

Hi All,

 

Starting another thread for my Capital 1 CCA request. They have replied with the following which i'm sure has been pretty standard for everyone!!

 

Can anyone suggest my next step based on what they have sent?

 

 

The next 2 were front and back of an A4 paper!! Interesting that the charges are listed as £12 showing that they are not the same as when I took out the card!!

 

 

 

The following was a folded leaflet and is obviously current T&C's

 

 

 

Any help will be appreciated, I'm not sure where to go now, obviously a "you didnt respond to my request correctly letter" but do I stop paying them my monthly amount until the dispute is resolved??

 

If I continue to pay as I have been and send the dispute letter i'm worried that they will do nothing as they are still getting thier cash on time, on the other hand I want to make sure i'm not doing anything wrong by stopping payments!!

 

Thanks

[Hugh Jeffort]

Anyone? Would love to hear from anyone with same/similar paperwork as this from crap one!! Might help to bounce ideas if there's no one with any advice!!

[the_shadow]

Hi Hugh,

 

Yep thats what crap1 are sending out at present, I've got almost the same form

 

Waiting for my SAR response to work out the next step tho.

[Hugh Jeffort]

Hi pmw1971,

 

I decided to call their bluff and send an 'Account in dispute' letter.

Was going to SAR them but from reading other threads even when people specifically ask for the CCA they still dont send it!!

 

After our chat the other day i'm still reluctant to stop payments though, not just yet, will see how they respond first, if they dont reply I might stop payment to get their attention!! It seems to have worked for others!

 

Keep me posted on how you get on!!

[Mightyacorn]

In same situation with Capital One myself,

Sent for CCA received this back:-

Capital One :: CapitalOne0001.jpg picture by mightyacorn2008 - Photobucket

 

So sent this:-

 

 

 

5th February, 2009

 

 

 

Capital One Bank (Europe) plc

PO Box 5283

Nottingham

NG2 3JU

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re:− Account/Reference Number

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

This account is in Dispute.

 

On 30th December, 2008 I wrote to you requesting that you supply me a true copy of the executed credit agreement for this account.

 

In response to this request I was supplied merely with current terms & conditions relating to a credit card account. This does not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The document sent purporting to be a credit agreement does not contain any of the prescribed terms as required by section 60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) made under the authority of the “1974 Act” sets out what the prescribed terms are, I refer you to Schedule 6 Column 2 of SI 1983/1553 for the definition of what is required. None of the terms are present in the documents you have sent.

 

Since this document does not contain the required prescribed terms it is rendered unenforceable by s127 (3) consumer Credit Act 1974, which states

 

127(3) “The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).”

 

This situation is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

In addition should you continue to pursue me for this debt you will be in breach of the OFT guidelines, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair. I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

You had until 22nd January, 2009, to provide me with the true copy I requested. After that date you entered into default of my request. Whilst the account is in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register anyinformation on this account with any credit reference agencies (or any third party).

 

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the data subject to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

 

The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. Any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to The Information Commissioners Office.

 

Since the agreement is unenforceable it would be in everyone’s interest to consider the matter closed and for you to write the debt off. I suggest you give serious consideration to this as any attempt of litigation will be vigorously defended and I will counter claim for all quantifiable damages.

 

I would be grateful of your response within 14 days.

Yours faithfully

And received this back:-

Capt One Second Letter :: Page 1 picture by mightyacorn2008 - Photobucket

 

Anybody any idea what she's on about? Surely for something to be "omitted" it must be there in the first place, all they sent was a blank Terms and Agreement Leaflet and a letter with my 'current' terms thereon.

Any advice on how to respond please?

Edited February 22, 2009 by Mightyacorn

[Hugh Jeffort]

Hi mightyacorn,

 

I'm still not 100% sure on all this but this thread makes interesting reading!!

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

 

Does anyone know if you need to send payment for this request and if so how much?

[LG29]

Hi

 

I have got exactly the same back, also wondering what to do next.

[davey77]

Mightacorn. You have left your reference number post 5 link.

The are correct in their replies when they state they are not required to supply the original agreement. Quoting the regs 1983. What they forget to mention is that pre April 07 agreements that do not contain the debtors signature along with the Prescribed Terms cannot be enforced. (They would need that original document in Court.)

 

Further replies should state that what they have sent may or may not comply with S 78 (true copy) but what you require is the Original Full and Properly Executed Agreement. (In other words, what they would reply on in Court.)

 

Hugh jeffort. I believe it's £75 for an order for disclosure. Should be mentioned in the CPR link somewhere though.

 

If all they have supplied is blank or generic T&Cs in response to a CCA request then the CPR route is the way to go thereafter.

 

p.s It's still worth doing a SAR. You may getting something else you may not. Even so, when (if) they don't comply you can complaint to the ICO.

[panty54]

Hi Davey

 

Can I just ask why you advocate the CPR route as opposed to the SAR route. Surely the CPR route suggests serious business in terms of court action or has experience shown you that the SAR route really does not provide the outcome you would like. Have you done the CPR route and if so what was the outcome? Is one advantage to the CPR route that it would give you some closure? I am new to this and have just SAR'd one of my creditors and was wondering if CPR would have been a better alternative.

Edited March 3, 2009 by panty54
Incomplete message

[davey77]

They are really two very different things.

 

A SAR is your entitlement to any information a company (creditor, utilities, police etc) holds on you. Whatever that may be.

Generally it's used to get all the statements from a Creditor, perhaps the agreement (although they tend to leave that out), correspondence between you and the creditor etc.

 

The responsibility for non-compliance of a SAR if not complied with within 40 days rests with the ICO.

 

--------

 

CPR - Civil Procedure Rules (Pre Action Protocols) are used before any party has begun Court Proceedings.

CPR 31.16 is used to access the merits of any case you may bring at a future date. Really, "i would like to know what you (the creditor) have in the way of documents, that you would rely on in Court to back up your case, should i decide to take Court Action" That way you would have a better idea how strong/weak your case was against them.

 

Initially it's just a letter. No Court involved and it's up to you to take it further if you feel you have not been supplied the information you requested.

Then you can go to Court and ask for an order for disclosure and say 'hey, i asked this creditor for whatever they have to defend their case (should i bring one) but that haven't. Can you (the Court) order them to comply with my request".

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

 

I've sent CPR letters but haven't been to Court to see them through. Interestingly, the creditors have tried them best to get out of them calling them DPA or SAR requests. Can only assume they don't like the CPR as they have tried to wiggle out of them.

[nish40]

Hi All,

 

Starting another thread for my Capital 1 CCA request. They have replied with the following which i'm sure has been pretty standard for everyone!!

 

Can anyone suggest my next step based on what they have sent?

 

 

The next 2 were front and back of an A4 paper!! Interesting that the charges are listed as £12 showing that they are not the same as when I took out the card!!

 

 

 

The following was a folded leaflet and is obviously current T&C's

 

 

 

Any help will be appreciated, I'm not sure where to go now, obviously a "you didnt respond to my request correctly letter" but do I stop paying them my monthly amount until the dispute is resolved??

 

If I continue to pay as I have been and send the dispute letter i'm worried that they will do nothing as they are still getting thier cash on time, on the other hand I want to make sure i'm not doing anything wrong by stopping payments!!

 

Thanks

Just had exactly the same yesterday. I'm sending an S.A.R. today, they make out they are hiding your details lol. RUBBISH

[Hugh Jeffort]

Finally recieved a response from Crap one, seems to be the same as Mightyacorn's!!

 

 

 

 

On Davey's advice I guess i'll try the CPR route now!! Anyone else in this process with Crap one? Any success in actually getting a proper copy of your CCA?

[Hugh Jeffort]

Haven't had a chance to do anything about this yet but wondered what people thought about the SAR or CPR route? Is it worth sending a SAR request knowing they wont give me anything just to explore all avenues before using the CPR route?

[the_shadow]

Haven't had a chance to do anything about this yet but wondered what people thought about the SAR or CPR route? Is it worth sending a SAR request knowing they wont give me anything just to explore all avenues before using the CPR route?

 

I got a "copy" of my application via a SAR although I'm not sure its legit and crap1 wont respond to my CPR requests.

 

PmW

[Mightyacorn]

Finally recieved a response from Crap one, seems to be the same as Mightyacorn's

 

 

 

Ellie is really busy.

[Hugh Jeffort]

she is indeed............ maybe the only employee that actually deserves a bonus??????

[Mightyacorn]

She (or one of her minions) must be sat at a desk with a load of pigeon holes all marked "Bog standard letter 1", "Bog standard letter 2", "Bog standard letter 3" etc., and then taking them out in batches and printing the letters off.

[Hugh Jeffort]

Funny to see what they do when they get too pigeon hole for "bog standard letter 4" only to find there is no letter 4!!!!!!! Oh no........have to start back at 1 again.....they will never notice!!!

[Hugh Jeffort]

Decided to use the CPR 31.16 route to get the agreement and recieved another letter from Ellie informing me that I did not enclose a £1 payment for my S78 request!! Its nice to see they sctually read the letters they get sent!!!! I have knocked up another letter stating in bold that the request is pursuant to CPR 31.16 not S78 so hopefully it may work.

I've also added at the end that I would be willing to cover any reasonable costs to copy the original agreement, is this ok to offer? I thought it would look much better if I offered to cover their costs!!

[Hugh Jeffort]

Bump!!

[the_shadow]

Stick to the timelines, give them their 21 days, note the response down against the first CPR and then send the 2nd letter, use bolder lettering for the CPR or put it in red if you like

 

The first letter clearly states its a CPR letter and when you send the 1st letter as a copy with the 2nd they cannot deny confusion later on.

 

S.

[Hugh Jeffort]

Thanks Shadow, I did just that!!! Hopefully get a better response next time!! Will keep all posted!!

[Hugh Jeffort]

Hi all,

 

Here is the latest resonse from Crapone..... Cant say i'm surprised really......

 

 

 

One thing they have mucked up is the status of my account on the second page....... I havent been defaulted (yet), the balance they say I owe is completely wrong, and there is nothing outstanding at the moment!!

 

Can anyone comment also on the part where Ellie states that I havent provided them with a good enough reason to request a real actual copy of my agreement? I understood that I didnt have to answer to them, if I apply to the court for disclosure then I have to provide evidence to the COURT not crapone!!

 

Also any advice on my next step would be appreciated, I was just going to send another CPR request as per the long long thread by PT!! I know it wont help but at least i'm trying.......

[Mightyacorn]

 

One thing they have mucked up is the status of my account on the second page....... I havent been defaulted (yet), the balance they say I owe is completely wrong, and there is nothing outstanding at the moment!!

 

Can anyone comment also on the part where Ellie states that I havent provided them with a good enough reason to request a real actual copy of my agreement? I understood that I didnt have to answer to them, if I apply to the court for disclosure then I have to provide evidence to the COURT not crapone!!

 

Also any advice on my next step would be appreciated, I was just going to send another CPR request as per the long long thread by PT!! I know it wont help but at least i'm trying.......

 

They (I think Ellie is still on Maternity Leave) obviously cannot edit standard pre format letters.

[kungfu-king]

is there any way yet to get them to admit they have no agreement i have told them that i know for a fact they do not hold one.

and i genuinely did not sign an agreement

 

should i take them to court as i know 100% they have no agreement

is there anyway i could lose?