rossendales had crazy charges

[lordmitz]

hi guys. i'm a bit new to all this, so i'll try and give as much info as i can, if any of you can advise me if i've been screwed over here or not that'd be great.

 

i moved house back in november to live with some friends, and had informed the council (by writing) i was now residing with the current address. i thought i was fully paid up with my council tax from the previous property.

 

in january 27th (this year) i had a letter from rossendales demanding £80.30 for unpaid council tax on the previous property (this letter also claimed it was a final notice, despite it being the first i'd heard from either council or rossendales). i wrote to the council asking if this was correct, and was still waiting on a response when i had a second letter on feb 4th again from rossendales telling me there was now a baliff order and they'd attended to seize goods while we were out. i called the baliff's number on the letter (J mcGarry) and explained what was going on and i was awaiting the council's response. i informed him i wasn't trying to get out of paying, if i owed it, i'll pay it. but i wanted to make sure. he seemed disgruntled by this but said he'd call back in a week.

 

on friday i still had no response to my letter to the council so i called them, and found out i did indeed owe the money for the property, and now they've passed it onto the baliff. today the baliff came around and i told him i do owe the money, so fair enough i'll pay the £80. at which point he told me it'd gone up to £274.80. apparently someone had added a baliff charge for almost £200. i told him this was insane, he got very pushy and said i should've paid in the first place. i pointed out to him again what i'd already told him over the phone and then said i'm not disputing i owe it, and i'm willing to pay the £80 here and now. but he was very agressive and then demanded to enter the premises and take goods for the £200, unless i paid him it in cash there and then. when i said i didn't want him doing that he then jacked up the charge to £500 and started to call the police as i was denying him entry.

 

so, at this point i had no idea what was going on, it sounded half like he was trying to con me and half like he was trying to scare me. i managed to talk him back to the £280, and he demanded it cash, and so i had to go to the cashpoint and get it. while he was filling out a receipt for this, i asked him why the baliff charge was so high, and his response was it's a standard charge. now since looking here i see all different mentions of different charges for things, i'm not sure that £200 was a valid amount or was he skimming some extra off the top for himself or the company?

 

the whole thing's just been unreasonable and insane, never once have i said i'm not paying outright, i said from the very beginning with them if i owed it i'll pay it, i just needed to check as i'd had no mention from the council about it. if you guys can advise me on if i've been wronged or if i'm just out an extra £200 now that'd be great. thanks for reading!

[caledfwlch]

Call the police, you have just been the victim of fraud by the bailiff.

[lordmitz]

wow, really? thanks for the quick response. does anyone else think i should do this before i go ahead and do it?

 

not to say you're not right, just want to check up before i do anything drastic.

[lordmitz]

hi again, sorry to bump this, but i'd like a little more advice before going to the police with this. how should i treat it? should i speak to rossendales head office to ask them about the charge first, or would this make my case worse? if it helps anyone i denied him entry to my house, although he make a couple of attempts to step past me, and when i denied him this he made comments about 'would he like to rain on my happy little world and get friends and the police around', this was the point where he got aggressive in tone and started jacking up the fee to £500 and started calling the police.

 

the more i think about it the more it sounds like he was trying to scare me so i wouldn't question his fraud. i have a receipt from a rossendales booklet he filled out that shows i paid £274, and it has his name on it. would this help me out?

[Heathliver]

Just thinking about the advice to give, about to go out, will post in about 1 hour. Hope that ok?

[Heathliver]

You say you wrote to the LA to notify them about a change in address, do you still have a copy and did they ackowledge receipt of this. I ask because the council should notify you before applying for a liability order and before referring the matter to the bailiffs.

 

As far as I am aware only in unpaid criminal fines can an order be issued to break into a house or in eviction. If you had signed a Walking Possession Order and the bailiffs had been in your property could the bailiffs break into your house (only in the most extreme cases), so Rossendales are overstating thir powers. If a bailiff had called at your house you would have found a letter or similar left at your property to notify you.

 

If as the bailiffs had claimed, they had made 2 visits (which I find very doubtful), the maximum they could charge would be 1st visit fee £24.50 and 2nd visit fee £18.00, a total of £42.50. If they had levied on a vehicle outside your property, a seizure notice should have been posted through the door (although some are sticking the notice on the car or no notice at all - this is an illegal levy). These charges can only be applied if a court certified bailiff is in attendance as only certified bailiffs can act on Council Tax liability orders.

 

The bailiff is guilty of not identifying himself, behaving aggressively, assault by trying to push inside your house, overstating his powers, issuing threats leading you to fear that may come to physical harm and fraud. He was in breach of the guidelines laid out and agreed to by the national body (I will post a link at the bottom). Unfortunately you will find that the police not to be interested in pursuing an action against the bailiff or indeed of even investigating the matter. You have been defrauded but the best way of recovering your monies is by letters of complaint about the behaviour of the bailiff to the council and Rs. First write to Rs and ask for a full breakdown of costs charged to you by the bailiff. If they are not forth coming with this you serve a Standard Access Request (SAR) asking for a screen dump of your account. This may cost you £10 (the maximum that can be asked for). In the meantime tackle the LA overthe way they actioned the liabilty order and the bailiffs without notifying you. Copy in the collections department, the claim department, Rs and your local councillor. Also point out the illegal behaviour of the bailiff in this letter and tell them that they are resposible for his actions and for any overcharge on the fees. The LA may decide to refund all your fees but don't hold your breath.

 

Once you get a reply from Rs, you will have the evidence for taking them to the Couty Court to recover your money, make the LA joint defendants as they are liable as well. You might want to put in a Form 4 complaint aboutthe bailiff but think hard about this as the judges are not patient with those that mess them about.

 

Hope this helps.

 

I was going to include the advice given to officers by Devon & Cornwall Police but it has been removed from the website. If anyone wants it, PM me as I downloaded as a pdf file.

 

Department for Constitutional Affairs - Enforcement - National Standards for Enforcement Agents

[Heathliver]

Sorry aboutthe length, feels like war & peace

[lordmitz]

awesome, thanks very much for the help, it's given me a lot to go on, i think. and i'm pleased to see i'm not in the wrong for thinking he'd overstepped his boundaries.

 

i've got tomorrow off so i'll be writing to Rossns and to Leicester Council, see what turns up. if i can get the money back then that's a good thing, but mostly i just want to let the baliffs know they can't pull this stuff.

 

i appreciate you guys are here with the help. i'll keep you informed as to how it plays out, see if my case helps anyone else.

[Heathliver]

The trouble with all these things that you must do it in writing and it becomes a paper trail exercise.

[lordmitz]

hi again guys, just a quick one to update you and get some more advice.

 

i received a letter response from Rs, they gave me the baliff's version of events (which, no suprise here, gave a very different version to what actually happened), as well as a breakdown of the charges. here's what they said it was:

 

council tax owed: £37.80

 

1st visit fee (15th Jan): £24.50

2nd visit fee (21st Jan): £18

Levy Fee (16th Feb): £25.50

Van Attendance (16th Feb): £110

Waiting fee (16th Feb): £60

 

total £274.80

 

now, here's the thing. i only had one visit that he left anything through the door to say he'd been, and that was for the 27th Jan, which was when I called him, not the 15th or the 21st as they claim. it was indeed the 16th of feb when i spoke to him face to face and the events happened.

 

however, they claim in the letter he conducted a levy and added a van charge. can anyone explain what a levy is and the van charge is? he did not enter the property nor seize any goods, does this mean those charges aren't applicable?

 

also, the 'waiting fee' is one that boggles me. i never kept him waiting except when i had to go to a cashpoint to get the payment. but even then, the total of £274.80 (ie, including this mystery waiting fee) was given to me from the start, before he knew i'd have to go to a cashpoint.

 

can anyone advise me if the levy fee, the van attendace and the waiting fee are even applicable to my circumstances? or are they just making up numbers to justify things?

 

any help you can give would be truly, truly appreciated! thanks in advance.

[chris600uk]

can anyone advise me if the levy fee, the van attendace and the waiting fee are even applicable to my circumstances? or are they just making up numbers to justify things?

 

Generally they are just fantasy charges, added in the hope you won't know any different and will just pay in a panic.

 

See here: The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992

 

 

and here: The Council Tax and Non-Domestic Rating (Amendment) (England) Regulations 2006

 

 

If your charges aren't provided for in these acts then they can't be charged.

If there was no levy, then no levy fee can be charged. If there had been a levy there would have been some paperwork through your letterbox telling you about it, and listing the items that had been seized.

[scatz1972]

A levy is when the bailiff levies on your goods, ie makes a list. You say you never let the bailiff in, do you have a car that the bailiff could have levied on?

 

I would be inclined to write back to the bailiff company by recorded delivery asking what is recorded on the levy. (remember to keep a copy and send a copy to the local authority)

 

BTW I got all my bailiff fees back that they overcharged me, so it can be done it took a bit of time and patience and quite a bit of letter writing.

[lordmitz]

nope, no car here. i've written a new letter to them asking pretty much this, also questioning the legitimacy of the other fees. hopefully i'll see some reward from this!

 

thanks for the replies, both of you, the help is very much appreciated!

[Guest BiG SiD]

Basically the bailiff can charge a Levy and Van fee in the same visit - though this is unusally and not the norm with most bailiff companies (esp. with domestic arrears - tends to be used on NDR/Rent where the dangers of debtors absconding, going bust etc is higher). Without knowing what has been levied upon and perhaps importantly where it was levied upon - it could be very difficult to sort how the charges have broken down. ie: if the bailiff had attended your previous address (as I'd assume as notified by the council - charges at this address, though perhaps harsh, would stand, unless they credited by goodwill etc). Seems to me, that you need a copy of the inventory - do you have this? It should have been left when the levy of distress was made. If not talk to the company and ask for such a copy - that will show what and where the levy is. If it turns out to be a neighbours car - you will need to chase this up with the bailiff company - though if already paid the money - I'd have thought you'd struggle, as they can simply claim that the levy was made upon assets which were believed to be those of yourself. Get the Inventory - thats your key.