Second Attempt; could somebody help, please!

[Diggedag]

In short: January 2006, Barclays sold my account to BMS. I had overdrawn but was travelling abroad not using my Barclay card(I don't use this as an excuse).

 

Now, BMS are demanding payment of 705.42 pounds.

They have, after a telephone conversation - how they got my number I do not know - got hold of some copies of my former bank account with Barclays but no other documentation.

These documents state a debt of 646.55 pounds, which is 58.87 pound short of their, BMS', claim.

Moreover, BMS has not supplied a copy of my initial agreement with Barclays. There was an agreed personal overdraft on the account, the limit of which I truly do not remember but which might help reduce the charges.

Barclays charged me 25 pounds overdraft penalty + 54.88 pounds interest rate.

BMS told me on the phone that my problems with Barclays were my business, which I could solve AFTER I have paid them their claim, which is in excess of what I am supposed to have owed Barclays (lawfully or not).

 

Questions;

Can I expect BMS to acquire ALL necessary documentations from Barclays or do I really need to pay up and then take it up with the bank?

Is it correct to claim more money from me than was even Barclays claim, let alone their disputable charges?

Was Barclays in breech of the data protection act, when they sold my disputable (in amount) debt to a collection company?

Was BMS in non-compliance with the data protection act, when they bought the debt, the legality of which they could have no idea of.

 

Please! 'Is there anybody out there' to answer these questions. They, BMS, are threatening with 'furhter recovery action', whatever that means.

I have had helpful replies here before but then the information I could give was less precise.

 

Many Thanks and a Good Day!

[sosumi]

In short: January 2006, Barclays sold my account to BMS. I had overdrawn but was travelling abroad not using my Barclay card(I don't use this as an excuse).

 

Now, BMS are demanding payment of 705.42 pounds.

They have, after a telephone conversation - how they got my number I do not know - got hold of some copies of my former bank account with Barclays but no other documentation.

These documents state a debt of 646.55 pounds, which is 58.87 pound short of their, BMS', claim.

Moreover, BMS has not supplied a copy of my initial agreement with Barclays. There was an agreed personal overdraft on the account, the limit of which I truly do not remember but which might help reduce the charges.

Barclays charged me 25 pounds overdraft penalty + 54.88 pounds interest rate.

BMS told me on the phone that my problems with Barclays were my business, which I could solve AFTER I have paid them their claim, which is in excess of what I am supposed to have owed Barclays (lawfully or not).

 

Questions;

Can I expect BMS to acquire ALL necessary documentations from Barclays or do I really need to pay up and then take it up with the bank?

Is it correct to claim more money from me than was even Barclays claim, let alone their disputable charges?

Was Barclays in breech of the data protection act, when they sold my disputable (in amount) debt to a collection company?

Was BMS in non-compliance with the data protection act, when they bought the debt, the legality of which they could have no idea of.

 

Please! 'Is there anybody out there' to answer these questions. They, BMS, are threatening with 'furhter recovery action', whatever that means.

I have had helpful replies here before but then the information I could give was less precise.

 

Many Thanks and a Good Day!

Hi Diggidag,

I'm 'bumping' this up for you

[cerberusalert]

This is only my opinion so don't take it as a definitive answer, no doubt someone else will be able to clarify more fully;

 

You should send Barclays a SAR which will cost £10. They have to provide you with all the data they hold which includes copies of statements, interest penalty charges etc. BMS don't hold this information so can't provide it, but you can send them an 'In dispute' letter.

 

Some DCAs try it on by adding charges but unless it specifically states in any agreement with the bank & it's in their terms & conditions AFAIK they're stuffed.

 

Unless you notified Barclays in writing that you considered the account was in dispute, I think it would be difficult to prove any breech.

 

BMS would have no knowledge of your dispute. All they would receive would be the 'white paper' details (in theory) which should include copies of any agreements & a statement of account. But as these are usually bought within a portfolio they are usually lost/misplaced or just nonexistent.

[cds]

Have you cca'd bms or barclays for that matter if there is no signed agreement there is no debt to enforce. The S78. request is always the best place to start. One step at a time.

 

cds

[IdaInFife]

Can you confirm if they debt is from a bank account being overdrawn? or is this only from a credit card?

 

ida x

[42man]

I think the SAR request is a good place to start (unfortunately this costs £10 - send postal orders and send with the SAR letter (below) by recorded/guaranteed delivery) - I'm afraid you can't request a copy of an agreement for an overdraft. But you should claim back all the excessive charges.

 

Data Protection Act 1998

 

Subject Access Request

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxxxxx (or multiple numbers if more than one account)

 

Please supply me with all data that you hold on me. This includes in particular, but is not limited to, the following:-

 

1. The original signed, executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened.

2. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor

3. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with ORIGINAL CREDITOR.

4. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

5. Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

6. Details of any collection charges added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

7. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

8. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

9. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

10. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply.

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

print but don't sign your name

 

 

 

They cannot ignore a dispute !!!

[Diggedag]

Many thanks to all of you! Just the fact that you answered makes me feel better.

 

Dear 42man,

To whom do I need to send the Subject Access Request Letter? My guess is BMS, as they are 'handling' my account; but I am unsure.

 

Dear Ida,

The charges result from an overdrawn bank account. Problems being: a) I don't remember the limit, so have no idea as to the legality of the amount they charged; b) I stepped into Barclays one week after they closed my account (which I wasn't aware of at the time), asking if I could pay what was needed to get a new cashcard. The reply was negative. I left it at that (silly, I guess)

 

Many thanks again!

Edited February 15, 2009 by Diggedag

[cerberusalert]

You should send Barclays a Subject Access Request which will cost £10. They have to provide you with all the data they hold which includes copies of statements, interest penalty charges etc. BMS don't hold this information so can't provide it, but you can send them an 'In dispute' letter.

[Diggedag]

I've got it all now. Thanks a lot! I will post the result here on this thread.

[Diggedag]

Hello,

I am back with some new information.

 

First, I have sent the SAR to BMS, who sent me a letter back stating that THEY will get in touch with Barclays to obtain all the missing material.

 

My question is how much time do they have no to comply

as their initial reply was a) within the 12 required working days

but, b) did not include any of the from me requested

information?

 

Second, to answer Pill Boy; as far as I know, BMS purchased the debt from Barclays.

What is the difference between purchasing and acting on behalf?

 

Third, on the papers BMS sent me initially, there was no indication of my previous account number. Because of that, I have been unable to contact Barclays myself as I do not know my account number anymore (it is over three years back now).

The question is what do I do, if the material that BMS will send

me at some point is incomplete and again without my account

details?

Do I have the right to request my account details from BMS so

that I can contact Barclays myself? Will they have to wait until

all to this is done or can they drag me to court claiming that they

have done what they could?

 

Many thanks again to all of you! I hope somebody will read this and be able to answer my questions.

Have a good day!

[LilyLou]

SAR should have gone to Barclay's. Someone with moore knowledge will be around soon to assist you.

 

Regards

Lilylou

[42man]

I would send a SAR directly to Barclays....you do not necessarily need the account numbers....

 

You should send a £10 postal order with each one and address it to the Data Controller at each company:-

 

 

Data Protection Act 1998

 

Subject Access Request

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxxxxx (or multiple numbers if more than one account)

 

Please supply me with all data that you hold on me. This includes in particular, but is not limited to, the following:-

 

1. The original signed, executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened.

2. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor

3. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with ORIGINAL CREDITOR.

4. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

5. Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

6. Details of any collection charges added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

7. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

8. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

9. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

10. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply.

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

sign your name but put crosses though it so it can't be 'lifted'

[Diggedag]

Thanks to all of you so far!

I think I will wait for what BMS can come up with and, if I am not happy with the documents, will contact Barclays myself. I shall inform BMS of this if/when the time comes, assuming that they will have to wait for me to gather the material they (potentially) failed to supply.

 

I am sure that I will have to pay some money. How do I go about a settlement in the end? By mail or by telephone? Do I ask them to propose a payment plan? Would they have to consider that I am in fulltime education with a baby at home and with no taxable income?

 

Many Thanks!

[Diggedag]

Hello,

I am back. Maybe there is somebody to help me with my news?

 

I sent BMS the SAR on February, 16, wereupon they sent me one back on February 23rd, saying that they would contact Barclays for the documents.

 

I received a letter from BMS on 25 March.

They included a 'Statement of Account', which covers a few months of 2005 (previous to the closure of my account). It does not include any indication of my overdraft limit - apart from the numbers, which Barclays put in there.

They, furthermore, included a 'Deed of Assignment' - an Account sale agreement with a company called HLCF dated 9 January 2007.

The problem is that my account was closed and 'sold' in February 2006, one year before this so-called agreement.

Another problem is that this 'agreement' is just a few pages of paper without my name or anything relating to my person on it. There is also only one signature by Barclays senior debt sale manager, Ken Apter, but no signature from HLCF Ltd..

The last, additional and unsigned page seems from an excel table called 'extract relating to account no ....' anybody could have made it up and added it

 

My question is; is such a 'document' (which I could have made up myself) a legal document?

 

Furthermore, BMS (are they the same as HLCF?) included the 'Termination Notice' 'sent to me' by Barclays on 05 December 2005 - and BMS/HLCF claim to have bought my account in 2007, whereas I was told by Barclays in Feb 2006 that they had just sold my account.

The problem here is that Barclays sent the termination notice to my last address in England, which I had terminated in August or September 2005 but of which I had given them notice at around the same time.

 

However, BMS/HLCF offer me a reduced settlement down from 705 to 564 pounds.

 

Truth to tell, I know that I will pay some money but their cheeky impertinence (they keep sending me 'Final Notice' letters threatening with their LEGAL DEPARTMENT) tempts me to send them a letter that I will contact Barclays personally to finally get the documents, which can demonstrate that BMS and Barclays have been clear-cut without fault.

 

Is there anybody out there who could advise me?! Please!?

 

Thank you ver much,

 

Florian

 

 

 

My problem still is that

[Diggedag]

I just 'discovered' this advanced mode and try it to make myself heard, if this it what it does.

Thanks again,

-F

[IdaInFife]

Hiya,

 

as was stated before that if wanted 'all' info you would need to send barlcays a sar.

 

bms have sent what they have and under sar that's all they have to do.

 

 

You should resend sar to barcalys themselves to get the info you want

 

ida x

[Diggedag]

Hi Ida,

 

Thanks for reconfirmation. I agree and wasn't slow but rather too fast by sending the SAR to BMS. Now that they have come up with patches and unconvincing at that, I'll do as you have stated already twice.

 

Thanks a bunch for your time and effort!

 

Florian x

[IdaInFife]

[Diggedag]

Dear everybody,

 

Could you please help me with more advise?!

 

In short, I have sent a SAR to Barclays and informed the DCA ('BMS') of this fact, whereupon BMS sent me another letter stating (quote) "If we do not hear from you then we will be left with no alternative other than to continue with our recovery action".

 

From what I have learnt here (but I may be wrong), they are violating the fact that I am inw dispute with Barclays now, are they not???

 

I told BMS (the DCA my account was sold to) in writing of the fact that the account was now in dispute and a letter sent to Barclays.

 

Are BMS in violation of the rules?

 

Many thanks to whoever can give me a clear answer and hopefully a pointer for the correct course of action I need to take!

 

Best Wishes,

 

Florian

[silverfox1961]

Hi,

A few facts about debt collection agencies

They rarely know their head from their *rse

They will bully you constantly

They will swear that Jesus has risen again if it will get them money

They are usually full of hot air

Thier threats are just that-threats (they would have a hard job going through the courts unless they have all the paperwork related to the debt)

 

With BMS, they won't acknowledge any dispute as it's not with them. Barclays sold the debt to them therefore any argument you have with Barclays will have nothing to do with them. If you told BMS that you are in dispute with Barclays, they might put the account on hold for a few days but don't bank on it.

 

Persevere with Barclays and make sure you scrutinise everything they send you

 

fox

[42man]

Send this to both Barclays and BMS.....Barclays have a duty to ensure their own 'suppliers' comply with any guidelines too...you could edit this with the CCA details too if applicable....

 

Passing debt whilst in dispute

Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for the above referenced letter,although I am totally bemused as to why I have received it.

 

The author of the letter seems to have taken no notice of the present state of the account as it stands,for the following reasons :-

 

1) In 2007,in the High Court banks applied for and were granted ‘stays’, to claims for ‘penalty charges ‘ Part of the High Court Order states that NO ENFORCEMENT ACTION IS TO BE TAKEN BY THE BANK TO RECOVER any supposed charges made by them ,until the OFT Test Case has been resolved.AND in addition should any action be taken by the Bank,then the ‘stay’will be lifted,and no doubt ,judgement would be awarded in my favour..

 

2) I am sure that Barclays conform to The Banking Code,and as such I will draw your attention to s13.6, reference information you may NOT pass on,IF an account is in dispute.The High Court Order I would suggest is reasonable evidence to assume that this account is in dispute.

 

3) I am also sure that (name of bank and DCA) are fully au fait with the, Office of Fair Tradings code for

Debt Collection Guidance,and I draw your attention to the latest information from their publication,July 2003(updated December 2006);- This also relates to CPUTR2008

 

The following are deemed to be at the very least UNFAIR practices.

 

a) Section 2,2 b,Leaving out or presenting information ,in such a way that it creates a false or misleading impression .or exploits debtors’ lack of knowledge.

HOW you could miss the ‘stays’on accounts is beyond me.

 

b)Psychological harassment,as described in Section 2.6 g,making threatening statements or gestures ,or taking actions suggesting harm. Threatening court action I would suggest is more than just a gesture !!

 

c) Section 2.6 h,Ignoring or disregarding claims ,that debts are settled or disputed ,and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment.

 

d) Section 2.6 I,Disclosing or threatening to disclose,debt details to third parties ,unless legally entitled to do so.

 

e) Section 2.6 k,Not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt

 

I can only assume that based on the above,that your letters must have been sent in error,as I am certain you would not wish it to be seen as VEXATIOUS.

 

Your letter has obviously caused me a great deal of unnecessary concern,and worry,resulting in me having to take third party advice,undergo law and internet research,and take time out from my employment,as well as postage costs,to reply to your letter.As you (are a Bank/represent a BANK) and regularly make charges to customers,I have taken the liberty of charging you the sum of £35,which I will add to my costs against yourselves.

 

I further feel,that as a show of good faith by the Bank,that any further fees and/or interest should be frozen,pending the outcome of the OFT Test Case.

 

I would also point out that I intend to maintain my legal rights,and if necassary, file reports with the appropriate authorities, including, but not limited to, Trading Standards, Office of Fair Trading, Information Commissioners Office, Financial Ombudsman Service and possible court action.including the High Court.

 

I trust you will give this due diligence,and look forward to your reply within the next 14 days.

 

Yours faithfully

[IdaInFife]

did you send bms:

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Your ref:

 

Thank you for your letter of **DATE**, the contents of which are noted.

I refer to my letter of **DATE** a copy of which is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.

 

As holders of a Consumer Credit Licence you are obliged to comply with the Office of Fair Trading Guidelines on Debt Collection. I would therefore be obliged if you would provide me with an explanation as to why you are attempting to collect on an alleged debt which was disputed with **BANK ** prior to your first contact with me, and has yet to be resolved.

As per OFT guidelines Section 2.8k "not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt."

 

Since this is considered an unfair practice and contrary to the OFT guidelines, you should consider this letter as a formal complaint, and provide me with a copy of your complaint resolution procedure.

I also require you to confirm that you will now comply with the OFT guidelines, and will not attempt any further collection activity whilst the dispute is unresolved.

 

After taking advice, I am of the opinion that your continued pursuit is in violation of the CPUTR 2008, Protection from harassment Act 1997 section 3 as well as breaching a number of the OFT Collection Guidelines.

 

Should you fail to provide me with the required undertaking within 7 days, I shall report your breach of the OFT guidelines to Trading Standards and the Financial Ombudsman Service.

 

Take notice that I will not discuss this matter on the telephone, and all further communication must be in writing. Any further telephone calls will be perceived as harassment, and dealt with accordingly.

 

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you would prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

 

edit to suit

 

ida x

[IdaInFife]

never noticed 42 mans post, he is in and out like a flash

 

ida x

[vjohn82]

Are there any signed documents around for this matter? Especially interested in signatory pages from Ken Apter!

 

Thanks!

[MorganaNK]

Subbing