Halifax £12 Credit Card charges

[davey77]

Looks like a cut and paste then, as you say, nothing to link those 2 pages together?! And the difference in font adds suspicion.

 

If they could show (although not sure how they would) that the second page IS connected to the signature page then, with a missing lenders signature would make it improperly executed (not outright unenforceable).

 

They mention condition 8.2. If that wasn't included how can you know what it says?! (Or you!)

 

Also their choice of wording in the letter is odd to say the least. "Includes the credit agreement in an abridged form on the reverse".

 

Abridged: Shortened, cut down, condensed, censored.

In other words they have admitted there are other parts to this agreement that they have left out?

 

There is also the point to make that, (as i understand it although will need confirmation of this) the first page is headed 'Credit Agreement' and not a Credit Card Agreement as strictly defined within the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 SI 1983/1553. Therefore you could argue it is invalid for any purpose linked to a Credit Card account.

Now how seriously a Judge would view that kind of 'minor' error and how you could use that in a valid argument is another matter.

 

I would get pt2537 or Steven4064 to look in and give their valuable advice before drafting a response to smellyfax.

[babydoll0141917]

hi

thats exactly the same has i and many others have had..mines gone from halifax to bos to iqor to capquest then robbers way ..who i havent heard from in ages ,,None of us really know if they are enforcable ...only going to court i think we would find out if we requested we wanted to see the original then

[Livis]

Hi babydoll and davey, thankyou for your valuable input, it's much appreciated.

You do make me laugh with your smellyfax, lol

How do i get PT or Steven to look in ?

[babydoll0141917]

Hi

 

click the red triangle..it will alert some1 if you tell them the prob you are having

[Livis]

I've clicked the red triangle for some help.

If anyone else can offer advice that'll be great xx

[diddydicky]

well as a layman i think that all the waffle about you having made payments etc etc is just that and does not preclude you from suddenly realising that you have been inadvertently honouring a defective agreement

 

you should rememeber that BOTH sides signed a form which says you agreed to be bound by its terms and not just the debtor

 

one of the major terms is that the agreement is regulated by the CCA

 

one of (if not the) main overriding terms of the CCA is that if the creditor fails to get the agreement right he shall be denied the opportunity to enforce the debt and that the advance made will be treated as a gift.

 

furthermore- there can be no argument as to what the intent of sect 127 was since the author of the CCA has publicly stated in writing that it was precisely the intent that the punishment for the creditor failing to get the agreement right was that they shall not be able to enforce it.

 

when replying it might be prudent to point out to them that they also signed and agreed to be bound by the terms of this agreement

 

with regard to the telephone bit i think i would advise them that you have a policy of NEVER EVER giving security information, either in full or in part (ie part of a DOB) to incoming callers for security reasons.

 

As this is the case, there will never be an occassion where you will be able to discuss personal financial details with an incoming caller.

 

Notwithstanding the foregoing , you have been given legal advice to communicate ONLY in writing so that there is a full audit trail of what was said, offered, disputed and so on.therefore you will not be instigating a telephone call to them at any time to discuss the matter verbally

 

If therefore , given these circumstances I have just outlined to you -you continue to make telephone calls to me it can only be seen as an intention to cause harrasment and distress and any such calls will be logged and a formal complaint made in this respect.

 

It would also appear in my opinion , to a right thinking person that due inference could be drawn as to why you would not be prepared to have a written record of your communications

 

Furthermore whilst i am prepared to respond in timely fashion to all correspondence, in order to dispose of this matter amicably, you should be advised that a hold will be put on ALL communication with you if you continue to harras me by telephone

 

i trust this makes ,my position crystal clear

 

obviously needs a bit of work but you get the drift

 

 

i know not everyone can afford it but i just invested in a true call- WOW

 

i can see daily on my computer all the auto dialled and non autodialled calls and the phone stays as silent as a lamb except when my starred callers ( you give it a list of phone numbers that can get through) ring

 

the computer keeps an accurate record of all calls which is useful for making complaints.

 

I have 11 credit cards on the burners at the moment and not ONE telephone call to annoy me

[diddydicky]

It has dawned on me through sleepy eyes that what is needed is a Library of agreements, appl forms and second pages showing the alleged prescribed terms listed by date which could be supplied by posters from their OWN files (those that have kept them

 

this would be extremley useful for other caggers to check the layout and the charges/interest rates/document markings etc prevalent at the time they were issued against what has been sent to them in response to their requests and would give a good insight as to whether cut and paste is occurring

 

just a thought

[Livis]

Hi Diddydicky, thanks for replying on my thread, your post is really helpful.

I think your idea about a library for agreements, apps etc is great.

As i was searching round for ages looking to see if anyone had the same application as me.

I just need to pick apart exactly what is wrong with the agreement now, and then get my letter writing head on and see what i can come up with

[Livis]

Steven has just got back to me on another thread i have regarding the enforcability of this.

He says it's enforcable as it has my sig and prescribed terms if both sides were on the same sheet.

This is something, i'm not sure of.

What they've sent me certainly looks like something they've fudged together.

How do i reply now?

Any ideas folks? xx

[diddydicky]

well you could challenge them - write and say that you dont beleive that the prescribed terms on the back of the agreement are the ones that were on the original agreement and it would therefore be helplful if they would provide you with a copy of the original agreement for which you are prepared to pay their reasonable costs, or better still advise you of the location of the original agreement and you will make an appointment to goi and examine it

[Livis]

Hello all, can anyone look over this for me and see if it's ok to send

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

This account is in Dispute .

 

 

Thankyou for you letter dated 24th April 2009.

I would firstly like to address your comment that I have given no valid reason to dispute this debt.

I believe you are fully aware why I am disputing this debt and the reasons have been explained to you in my letters to you dated, 10th February and 15th April 2009.

On 21/01/2009 I wrote to you requesting that you supply me a true copy of the executed credit agreement for this account.

In response to this request I was supplied a mere application form which did not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The document sent purporting to be a credit agreement does not contain any of the prescribed terms within the body of the agreement as required by section 60(1) Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) made under the authority of the “1974 Act” sets out what the prescribed terms are, I refer you to Schedule 6 Column 2 of SI 1983/1553 for the definition of what is required. Suffice to say none of the terms are present in the document.

The terms are present on a separate sheet of paper that you have sent me in response to my subject access request, but there is nothing that relates to them being on the back of the application form at all.

I would also like you to elaborate on what you mean by, “The application you signed when taking out the account includes the credit agreement in an abridged form on the reverse”

It is my understanding that abridged means, Shortened, cut down, condensed, censored.

Does this mean that this in actual fact is not a true copy of the original agreement, but something that you have put together to look like it is?

Since this document does not contain the required prescribed terms it is rendered unenforceable by s127 (3) consumer Credit Act 1974, which states

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This situation is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

In addition should you continue to pursue me for this debt you will be in breach of the OFT guidelines, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

I require you to produce a compliant copy of my credit agreement to confirm I am liable to you. If you cannot do so I require written clarification that this is the case. Should you ignore this request I will report you to the Office of Fair Trading to consider your suitability to hold a credit licence in addition to a complaint to Trading Standards, as you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40

 

Since the agreement is unenforceable it would be in everyone’s interest to consider the matter closed and for you to write the debt off. I suggest you give serious consideration to this as any attempt of litigation will be vigorously defended and I will counter claim for all quantifiable damages

 

I respectfully request a response to this letter in 14 days

 

 

I trust this out lines the situation

[diddydicky]

looks good- personally i would delete the sentence at the end which starts "since the agreement is unenforceable"

 

to my mind if produced in court it gives the impression that this is the aim of your vigorous defence

 

let them make the decision to write it off - don't suggest it

[Livis]

goog point diddydicky, thanks xx

[Livis]

Has anyone else got any comments on my letter, i have it all ready to post to halifax tomorrow

[Livis]

i amended the 2nd paragraph. any comments welcome

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Re: My request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

Thankyou for you letter dated 24th April 2009.

 

I would firstly like to address your comment that I have given no valid reason to dispute this debt.

I believe you are fully aware why I am disputing this debt and the reasons have been explained to you in my letters to you dated, 10th February and 15th April 2009.

 

On 21/01/2009 I wrote to you requesting that you supply me a true copy of the executed credit agreement for this account.

The documents you supplied me within the Subject Access Request bundle appear to be no more than an application form, and as such are not a satisfactory response to my request. Nowhere on the front of the document is there any reference to the prescribed terms and conditions that such an agreement must contain. Further, the reverse of the sheet you supplied is there any reference to the front. I must assume that these are unconnected documents and once again inadequate to satisfy your obligations.

 

I would also like you to elaborate on what you mean by, “The application you signed when taking out the account includes the credit agreement in an abridged form on the reverse”

 

It is my understanding that abridged means, Shortened, cut down, condensed, censored.

Does this mean that this in actual fact is not a true copy of the original agreement, but something that you have put together to look like it is?

 

Since this document does not contain the required prescribed terms within the main body of the agreement it is rendered unenforceable by s127 (3) consumer Credit Act 1974, which states

 

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

This situation is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a document does not contain the required terms under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 the agreement cannot be enforced.

 

In addition should you continue to pursue me for this debt you will be in breach of the OFT guidelines, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s guidance on debt collection

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from page 5 of the guidance which states

 

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

 

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

 

I require you to produce a compliant copy of my credit agreement to confirm I am liable to you. If you cannot do so I require written clarification that this is the case. Should you ignore this request I will report you to the Office of Fair Trading to consider your suitability to hold a credit licence in addition to a complaint to Trading Standards, as you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40

 

 

I respectfully request a response to this letter in 14 days

 

 

I trust this out lines the situation

[Livis]

Hello all,

Well i sent the above letter and attached below is their reply.

Is it me or have they not actually answered my question???

 

[diddydicky]

personally i would respond along these lines:-

 

 

The "representation" of the agreement that you sent in response to my request shows that in several respects, not least of which is that the agreement is incorrectly headed and therefore is only enforceable by a court.

 

Furthermore , it is my opinion that the terms that you suggest were on the back of this agreement are not in fact the terms that were originally there and in any subsequent legal proceedings it would be my intention to put you to strict proof thereof

 

Notwithstanding the foregoing i thank you for confirming in your letter of XXXX (it is the one in post 8 which is not dated) the following:-

 

I refer to your letter of XXX (it is the one in post 8 that is not dated),

 

specifically i draw your attention to your statement:-

 

" we only have to provide you with a copy of the signed credit agreement when we seek to legally enforce the debt or take legal action against you"

 

please advise me at your convenience when you will "seek to legally enforce the agreement" or alternatively "take legal action against me" at which time I will again request a copy of the original signed agreement which you kindly confirm you will supply to me at that time

 

Yours

[diddydicky]

please ignore the above post - herewith one that makes more sense (sorry)

 

 

 

personally i would respond along these lines:-

 

 

The "representation" of the agreement that you sent in response to my request shows that in several respects, not least of which is that the agreement is incorrectly headed and therefore is only enforceable by a court.

 

Furthermore , it is my opinion that the terms that you suggest were on the back of this agreement are not in fact the terms that were originally there and in any subsequent legal proceedings it would be my intention to put you to strict proof thereof

 

Notwithstanding the foregoing i thank you for confirming in your letter of XXXX (it is the one in post 8 which is not dated) the following:-

 

 

" we only have to provide you with a copy of the signed credit agreement when we seek to legally enforce the debt or take legal action against you"

 

please advise me at your convenience when you will "seek to legally enforce the agreement" or alternatively "take legal action against me" at which time I will again request a copy of the original signed agreement which you kindly confirm you will supply to me at that time

 

Yours

[diddydicky]

Has anyone else had this letter from Halifax ?

 

IMPORTANT FOR ALL HALIFAX CAGGERS

 

i think the statement in this letter (as referred to in the post above) can be extremely useful for any other cagger dealing with halifax, who in my opinion have made a very silly but useful statement!!

[Livis]

Thanks DD, it just feels like i'm going round and round in circles with Halifax at the moment.

I sent a letter to Blair,Oliver & Scott yesterday in response to their intended court action telling them account is still in dispute etc etc.

I must draft up a letter to Halifax over the next few days, i will use your paragraphs too as they sound much better than what i could put together.

I wonder whether they will issue a court claim

Livis xx

[diddydicky]

Thanks DD, it just feels like i'm going round and round in circles with Halifax at the moment.

I sent a letter to Blair,Oliver & Scott yesterday in response to their intended court action telling them account is still in dispute etc etc.

I must draft up a letter to Halifax over the next few days, i will use your paragraphs too as they sound much better than what i could put together.

I wonder whether they will issue a court claim

Livis xx

 

i've just received the same document from them- smashing that sentence will come back to hauant them time and again if caggers use it properly

 

also just had what appeared to be a payslip, blue chequered back private and confidential on the front and the three sides perforations

 

opened it and lo and behold its from our friends halifax

 

inside it says

 

Our Representative will be calling your home on XXXXXXX 2009

 

Please telephone 0845 300 0580 if this is not conevenient

 

 

NOTICE:@ the very clever and deliberate mis typing of the first sentence with the word "AT" missing

 

this i presume is so that if you make a complaint about a home visit having stated you will not accept home visits they wil then say

 

"What home visit? we never said we were going to make a home visit Guv Honestly"

 

sneaky B****tards

[diddydicky]

Livis- well look on the bright side- they have confirmed to you in writing thnat if they intend to enforce they will first send you a true copy of the original agreement!!

 

tee hee (cant stop laughing)

 

what a mistaka to makea!

[Livis]

Hello all,

Just an update on this thread.

Halifax passed me over to Moorcroft and i sent them the bemused letter and that was the end of them.

I now have a letter from Robinson Way along with account statements and a copy of the applcation form that i disputed with Halifax in the first instance.

Shall i send them a letter back giving full details of why i have disputed this CCA or just keep it brief and say this is the same document that i have already disputed with halifax??

Thanks Livis xx

[diddydicky]

dear sirs,

 

thank you for the copy of the application form which i already have

 

When will you be sending a true copy of the executed credit agreement containing all of the prescribed terms within the signature document and copies of any other documents mentioned within it which will comply with your client's s78 obligtaions?

 

Y F

 

XXX

[Livis]

jUST