Help.. I have just got court papers from Natwest **SETTLED BY CONSENT**

[supasta1]

Hi everyone. About 2 years ago i had a falling out with natwest over bank charges. At the time we claimed against them i had a loan, an overdraft facility on my personal account and a joint account. As soon as we tried to claim Natwest shut all our accounts down and demanded all monies owed immediately. After a while of arguing with them i sent a cca request for the loan, they admitted they had no cca but still demanded all the money, i sent a few letters saying that i wouldnt be paying anything without a valid credit agreement and heard nothing more from them until a few months ago when another debt collecting firm wrote giving us one more chance to pay up before they took us to court. On the letter they sent they had me down as owing £4000 for the unenforceable loan, £1000 for the joint account overdraft that my partner had already paid and then my overdraft for £1400. I phoned them up and explained that the loan was unenforceable as there was no credit agreement, my partner had already paid the joint overdraft and i would only speak to them about my overdraft when they stopped harrasisng me about the other two. They said they wouldn't stop hassling me the conversation ended and i thought that was that. On Friday i recieved a claim form from Northampton county court saying natwest were claiming £6600 against me and i have 14 days to respond?? i am confused as i thought they couldnt take me to court for an unenforcable loan?? im really panicking and dont know what to say on the forms? Do i disagree with the whole claim or admit to my overdraft charges but say that i dont want to pay that as they owe me £1900 in charges?? i'm really confused and scared can someone please help me as i have to post the forms back in the next few days. thanx in advance

[supasta1]

Hi everyone. On friday i recieved a claim form from Northampton County Court, Natwest are trying to take me to court for a loan that they have admitted they have no cca for (£4000), an overdraft that my partner has already paid (£1000) and another overdraft for a personal account (£1500). I'm really shocked that they have actually started a claim against me and am not sure what to do now. What do i have to put on the claim form? Do i disagree with the entire claim or just part of the claim or do i make a counter claim for the £1900 charges they owe me? i'm really starting to panic and the forms have to be sent away in the next few days. How can the court let them do this when it supposed to be an unenforcable? i'm so confused. someone please help me. Thanx in advance

[supasta1]

Sorry about the double post but it said the first one didnt work. apologies

[toto003]

There are a number of similar threads to yours in this section. They are hoping you wont turn up in court and will get a Judgement in Default against you.

 

Scan the papers (remove personal details) and post them up - or type out their POC.

 

If you do some digging in this section you will find the correct way to word a defence putting them to strict proof of the agreement - which will require them to produce a copy of the original in court.

 

As they are taking action against you, you are entitled under CPR 31.14 to request a copy of the documents that pertain to their case against you (again plenty of info on this - see this thread : http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html )

 

make sure you ask for copies of any default notices and a breakdown of all charges - including their costs in relations to any penalty charges as to how they justify the amounts.

 

The Burden of proof is on the claimant, use this to your advantage.

[andie_303]

Hi I am no means a legal expert but unless you can prove 'hardship' the charges are still being battled in the high court so you will not get anywhere on a counterclaim for this - for them to have filed in court they must think they have some proof of the £4000 - are you positive they have nothing? Have the court provided you with the documentation they provided on filing their claim?

If you're sure they have nothing dispute it and the £1000 your partner has paid them - I assume you have proof.

You are not very clear about the £1500 other overdraft is this an agreed overdraft and if so are you within it?

 

Is this an online claim they have filed with MCOL - they normally originate from Northampton court - is the address to reply to a bulk centre? If so they will not have supplied the court with any documented information or proof at the moment its a he said she said situation. If you defend this they will move it to your local court and then Natwest will be required to provide documentation

[supasta1]

i don't think there are any p.o.c. on the forms. All there is is a section for me to fill in my personnal details. a section where i tick if i agree with the claim or not then a section for my incoming and outgoings and then a section which says defence. it just says natwest are claining money owed of £6600. I will have a dig about but am useless at things like this and just get all confused and muddled up. I really dont want to except any of the claim even though i do owe my personal overdraft but they owe me more in charges so it should just be cancelled out.

[supasta1]

yes it is a bulk centre on the address. I have a letter from Natwest saying they have no cca and that they dont need one as they can prove the money went into my account and that i was making regular payments until they closed my accounts. The situation was that i tried to claim my bank charges back and when i did they immediately shut down all of my accounts and demanded all the money for loans overdrafts etc.. obviously that wasn't possible then all this began. We have the proof for the money my partner paid for the joint account overdraft and they are still claiming for that. What would you advise to put on the defence section, should i disagree with all but my personal overdraft account?? thanx for your help

[toto003]

i don't think there are any p.o.c. on the forms. All there is is a section for me to fill in my personnal details. a section where i tick if i agree with the claim or not then a section for my incoming and outgoings and then a section which says defence. it just says natwest are claining money owed of £6600. I will have a dig about but am useless at things like this and just get all confused and muddled up. I really dont want to except any of the claim even though i do owe my personal overdraft but they owe me more in charges so it should just be cancelled out.

 

Well, if it is any consolation Supasta, I know how you feel. I have been asking one simple question on this site since I signed up and I still haven't got a proper answer.

 

The bottom line is, most of the answers are here, and if you make some attempts to put it together, plenty of helpful people seem to be around to rally behind you.

 

You need to pick yourself up and deal with these things one at a time and I guess start to try and enjoy the game.

 

I am currently staring into the abyss of losing everything, but I am damned if I am going to go down without a fight.

 

If there has been no evidence supplied to you whatsoever in this claim - simply answer that you disagree with the claim, and as your defense, state that you neither admit nor deny the amount and you put the claimant to strict proof thereof.

 

and that you also expect the originals of any agreement(s) and documents that this claim is based on to be present for inspection by the court.

 

[please be aware I have limited court experience, although I have been successful against carphone warehouse - should and any opinions I offer contradict more experienced users, you should take their advice.]

 

Chin up.

 

toto

[DocH]

Hi everyone. About 2 years ago i had a falling out with natwest over bank charges. At the time we claimed against them i had a loan, an overdraft facility on my personal account and a joint account. As soon as we tried to claim Natwest shut all our accounts down and demanded all monies owed immediately. After a while of arguing with them i sent a cca request for the loan, they admitted they had no cca but still demanded all the money, i sent a few letters saying that i wouldnt be paying anything without a valid credit agreement and heard nothing more from them until a few months ago when another debt collecting firm wrote giving us one more chance to pay up before they took us to court. On the letter they sent they had me down as owing £4000 for the unenforceable loan, £1000 for the joint account overdraft that my partner had already paid and then my overdraft for £1400. I phoned them up and explained that the loan was unenforceable as there was no credit agreement, my partner had already paid the joint overdraft and i would only speak to them about my overdraft when they stopped harrasisng me about the other two. They said they wouldn't stop hassling me the conversation ended and i thought that was that. On Friday i recieved a claim form from Northampton county court saying natwest were claiming £6600 against me and i have 14 days to respond?? i am confused as i thought they couldnt take me to court for an unenforcable loan?? im really panicking and dont know what to say on the forms? Do i disagree with the whole claim or admit to my overdraft charges but say that i dont want to pay that as they owe me £1900 in charges?? i'm really confused and scared can someone please help me as i have to post the forms back in the next few days. thanx in advance

 

Hi supasta1,

 

Would you please answer a few questions that I have:

 

Who are the claimants and solicitors listed on the claim form?

What is the date of the claim form?

What are the particulars of claim? We need to know exactly what has been written here.

 

Normally with a claim form you need to acknowledge service of the claim within 14 + 5 days. The 5 days are to allow for service of the claim form by post. If you intend to defend the whole claim then you are given a further 14 days to submit your defence. I would suggest that you do defend the whole claim at this point - this can always be altered at a later date to an admission or part defence if that becomes necessary.

 

But first please provide the answer to the questions posed and we can take it from there.

[supasta1]

The issue date is 05 Feb 2009, it is from the county court bulk centre, i cant find any particulars of claim. just some personnal details to fill in and a section for defence and that is about it. It is very vague. The claiments are National westminister and the solicitors are Incasso LLP i think??

[andie_303]

ok that means they filed it online and have not had to provide any proof I would at this minute just acknowledge the claim then i think you have 14 days after acknowledgement to file a defence. I have zero legal experience and am only learning things through other forums but there are experts on here that will jump in to help and clarify if I make any mistakes...I would imagine without a signed CCA this loan would be unenforcable - that doesn't mean you get your money back it just means that they can't chase you for it and after 6 years it becomes statute barred. You can fully defend the £1000 as you have proof but I think you will have to acknowledge the £1500 debt. So I would say you are going to partially defend.

And as Natwest have started this as you insitigated a charges claim against them I'd put that in your court papers too

[DocH]

When you received the package from Northampton you should have received a response pack and a form that looked like this:

 

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm217/Decanus6/001.jpg?t=1227995187

 

On this form about half way down are the particulars of claim.

[supasta1]

Thanx for helping

[creditcardmug]

Hi, you have until 24th feb to acknowledge, so no immediate panic.

 

As doc says we need to see the particulars of claim

[MARTIN3030]

2 threads merged.Please stick to one thread.

It makes it confusing for those following and helping you if there are multiple threads.

[supasta1]

Sorry about that i didn't know how to delete the other thread.

 

OK i see where the particulars of claim are supposed to be from DocH reply, thankyou. All it says in that space on the form i have recieved is Nawest claims money owed £xxxx.xx, i can't remeber the exact figure and that is it. I will scan the forms at work tommorrow but that is literally all that is on the sheet. Should they have put more info on there??

[womble72]

Hi Supasta,

 

Are you a homeowner ?

 

The loan you can defend easily - no orginal agrrement.

 

You must send a cpr 31.14 request a.s.a.p via special delivery.

 

Also send a Sar request and enclose £10.00.

 

please make sure you do not sign any paperwork !

 

To be on the safe side with the sar request use a font at the bottom of the letter i.e your name, then sign across the font. I did that with the ratwest when i did a sar request and they refused to send it without a signature.

 

Now with the defence i would defend all of the case.

 

They have not put anything on the Poc of why you owe the money so defend all.

 

It is down to the Ratwest to provide the proof of the loan and charges on the overdraft.

 

As someone has mentioned on here already that an overdraft is very hard to defend. The only defence you have is unfair charges on the overdraft and if you had hardship or not it still unfair.

 

Has the £1,500 overdraft have any unfair charges on ?

 

Is there a ppi on the insurance ?

 

I am going through the same as you with the crapwest and i know how you are feeling at the moment but now you have found the cag site and its time to start fighting back against these bullies !

 

Kind Regards

 

Womble

[supasta1]

Yes i am a home owner. Excuse me for sounding stupid but what is a cpr 31.14 request?? I will send the SAR tomorrow, i'm just trying to figure out how to scan and upload the forms onto here. Yes the £1500 loan had charges on them. We have tried to claim back all our charges, they made us offers but we refused because they were way short and then the test case started and we got a letter off them saying we had to wait for the case to finish. we didnt take out any ppi. I really hate natwest after all they have put us through. thanx for your support womble, much appreciated.

[creditcardmug]

Try uploading the docs to photobucket, and paste the link into your post

[womble72]

Hi Supasta1,

 

Here is the cpr 31.14 request

 

Dear Sir,

 

Re: Natwest v xxxxxxx Case No: xxxxxxx

CPR 31.14 Request

 

On xxxxxxx (date) I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the Northampton County Court.

 

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of each of the following documents which should have been attatched to your Particulars of Claim according to CPR PD 16 para 7.3,: Furthermore, the Defendant seeks the same pursuant to CPR 18.

 

1 the agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the or iginal(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

2 the default notice.

 

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the documents I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any versions to include an obligation to recover and preserve such versions which are now in the possession of a20third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this=2 0CPR 31.14 request.

 

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

 

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

yours faithfully

xxxxxxx

 

Send this to the ratwest. (do not sign)

[Craftygirl42]

I am defending an overdraft at the moment, and believe they dont have to supply you with a default notice, but do have to supply a termination notice. If it was an authorised overdraft they should have also supplied you with written terms and conditions shortly after the overdraft was agreed. Thats how I have read it on here.

 

Good luck and I would suggest you defend all the claim in this instance, it gives you a change to read up and sort things out

[womble72]

When i recieved my termination of the overdraft from the ratwest they stuck on £4,000 unfair charges on it and terminated after the court summonds.

 

They did send me terms and conditions only a few weeks ago but they move the goalposts when it suits.

 

My Motto is defend defend defend !

[supasta1]

http://i668.photobucket

 

Tell me if this works, this is the poc

[supasta1]

Thanx everyone for your help so far. I am wanting to send the SAR today, because the amounts are made up of three seperate accounts, do i have to send three seperate SARS?? cheers

[supasta1]

OK i have sent the CPR request above and the SAR by special delivery. I have also filled out the acknowledgement of service online and ticked the 'I dispute the full amount claimed'. I hope that was the correct thing to do lol.. has anyone been able to check that my photobucket posting worked?? i will try again when i get home from work. Is there anything else i need to do or is that it for now?

 

Cheers