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Ida, thanks, but shouldn't it be a copy of the original signed agreement? There are no signatures on it at all.

 

It can be a true copy (i.e. not necessarily signed) but it seems v. odd that it looks like a photocopy but no name, address or sigs. Seems to me it could be a reconstructed copy but the only way you will find out for sure is to use the CPR to inspect the original or get them to produce it.

Any knowledge I possess or advice I proffer is based solely on my experiences in the University of Life. Please make your own assessment of legality, risks & costs before taking any action.

 

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Send them this letter recorded delivery (print your name,don't sign it)............

 

 

Dear Sirs

 

Account number

 

I write with regards to the above account with your organisation.

 

I respectfully request that you provide me by return a copy of the credit agreement which bears my signature. I require this as i have reason to believe that there may be discrepancies within the agreement which may leave it improperly executed.

 

Obviously if the agreement is improperly executed I would be entitled to ask the court to consider the agreement and make a declaration of the rights of parties to the agreement.

 

I must stress this request is NOT made pursuant to section 78 Consumer Credit Act 1974 but is made pursuant to the Civil Procedure Rules ( Pre action protocols and Part 31.16) and therefore unsigned copy will not suffice, only a copy of the original contract in its unaltered form will suffice in these circumstances

 

Please confirm if you still hold a copy of my signed agreement and that you will provide me with this document.

 

I do not view this as an unreasonable request given that by supplying the document which I have asked for it will allow me to assess if my case has merit and will help to resolve matters possibly without the need to involve the court and will undoubtedly save costs on both sides

 

I look forward to your reply and wouyld ask for a response by 4pm on XXXX Date ( Give 21 days to respond)

 

 

Yours,

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Cerebusalert,

 

Thanks very much, will get the letter posted off first thing in the morning.

 

Sorry to be a pain, but is that 21 working or calendar days?

 

Also do I send this to Westcot who have been chasing me or to NatWest who the loan was originally with?

 

Blue

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  • 4 weeks later...

you can either wait to they send another demand for payment or you can send if the days have passed:

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Date:

 

Ref:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. This was signed for as delivered on the **DATE**

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE** (12+2 days after you made the initial request).

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore, you are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before you/your client enters into a default situation.

 

This limit has expired.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 78(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested. You will also be aware of the CPUTR 2008 and the OFT's guidelines on debt collection which state under the title Deceptive and/or unfair methods - Examples of unfair practices are as follows - 2.8

 

(i) - 'Failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued'

 

(k) - 'Not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonable queried or disputed debt'

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Ida x

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Ida,

 

Many thanks for the letter. I had asked Westcot for a true copy under the Civil Procedure Rules as all they sent me after my first request was a typed copy. I gave them 21 days to reply, which has since past.

 

Is your letter the one I need to send in these circumstances or is there another one that can be used as the second request I sent them wasn't under the s77/78 of the 1974 Act?

 

Sorry for being a pain, but all this is quite confusing.

 

Blue

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If you've applied under the CPR, it's different letters, different time scales. It's all on pt's thread:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

Any knowledge I possess or advice I proffer is based solely on my experiences in the University of Life. Please make your own assessment of legality, risks & costs before taking any action.

 

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  • 1 month later...

Hi everyone,

 

After sending two letters under CPR, I never received anything back from Westcot until today.

 

They have now sent me a lovely red Final Notice telling me that unless I make payment in the next 14 days a summons may be lodged with the County Court.

 

I've been reading through PT's very long thread but as I can't remember the exact dates or how much the exact loan was for am having a bit of trouble knowing what to write on the witness statement or really knowing what I should be doing next.

 

Can anyone advise what I should do? Should I ignore their letter and wait to see what they do?

 

Sorry for sounding so stupid, but this legal stuff confuses the hell out of me.

 

Kind Regards

 

Blue

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Hi everyone,

 

After sending two letters under CPR, I never received anything back from Westcot until today.

 

They have now sent me a lovely red Final Notice telling me that unless I make payment in the next 14 days a summons may be lodged with the County Court.

 

Sorry for sounding so stupid, but this legal stuff confuses the hell out of me.

 

Kind Regards

 

Blue

 

I've highlighed the only word you need to take notice of... ;-)

 

The account's still in dispute, correct? ...Nuff said

Just hate every DCA out there

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At this stage it would certainly be worth sending the SAR to Natwest, IMO, I think you should also send the CPR31.16 letter to Natwest also. DO Wescot own this debt now ? or are they 'collecting on behalf of' ?

 

You can find the SAR here - send with a £10 postal order and send recorded/guaranteed, just keep an eye out in case they attempt legal action.

 

Here is the SAR - (NUMBER 11) - The Consumer Forums - Debt collectors - they have to comply within 40 days..

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi

 

NatWest have returned my postal order and have given the following reply to my Subject Access Request -

 

Dear blueknight

 

We acknowledge receipt of your recent letter requesting your personal data held by the bank and payment of £10.00 fee.

 

The signature you provided does not match our records. Please send evidence of signature to allow us release requested information and please also visit your local branch and ask a member of staff to update your signature.

 

In order that we can deal with your request we require consent from the joint signatory on the account.

 

Please provide use with a letter of authorisation from Mr XXX, as we cannot release joint information without the consent of all parties.

 

In the interim period, we return your original request and payment and would be grateful if you wish to progress that you return these papers with the missing information requested above.

 

On receipt of these, we will verify your signature and any information required to be provided to you under Section 7 of the Data Protection Act will be forwarded to you at the above address.

 

If you have any queries relating to this matter please do not hesitate to contact me at the address shown above.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Joyce E Tudor

 

Letter was pp'd but I can't read the signature.

 

 

 

Can anyone give me any advice on what to do next? I know somewhere on the site another user had the same problem, but I'll be damned if I can find it again.

 

I have no intention of going into a branch to verify my signature and I'm not surprised it's different after nearly 11 years, also I have no idea where my ex-husband is nor wish to know, so I certainly won't be trying to contact him.

 

I've also just realised (not that it probably has any relevance) by the time my ex defaulted on this loan, I had no access to the account - he defaulted in Jul 99 and I stopped using the account in Jan 99. I wrote to NatWest at the time and informed them of this and returned all cards and cheque books to the branch, not that it will mean anything to them as they'll still continue to chase me as they see me as the weakest link.

 

blue

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Hi again blueKnight :),

Bumping this for the morning shift.

Just had another read through to refresh my memory..

Bleddy hell, it used to be people in debt who buried their heads in the sand..now the tables are turning it's the DCA's and banks doing it!

What immediately stands out to me about that response to your SAR is that they've been perfectly happy to supply personal documentation to you up to that point, and to sell on the debt ascribed to you at that address.The DCA are also confident enough in your identity to threaten court action. Yet they have so far refused to provide ANY proof to you of your liability.

I made a recent SA request for a joint loan, just my printed name, and they sent everything to me without question, including a copy of the original signed agreement.

Since the data they hold pertains to YOU whether or not it also has your exes name on it is irrelevant, it's still YOUR data and they must provide it on your request. Re the signature..they can ask for this if they have reason to doubt your identity, eg after change of name or address. If you haven't then there shouldn't be a problem. Here's a link to the Information Office's Complaints page. There's a phone number for advice on there, or you can email them.

I'd get in touch with the ICO, explain that you're being harrassed and threatened with court action for a debt for a joint loan which you dispute, and that you have made numerous requests for proof of the debt in the form of a copy of the signed agreement, under CCA 1974, CPR and finally DSAR, and they are refusing to cooperate.Explain that you no longer have contact with your ex and that they're refusing to send the SAR etc. Get some sound backup advice. If they say you WILL need to send your signature..there's ways to do it so they can't lift it. Certainly they shouldn't expect you to get your exes too...ICO will hopefully confirm that.

Come back and let us know what they say, then we'll help with the next step.

I believe, from they way they're avoiding the issue, that there's no copy of the CCA, which is exactly why they're desperately upping the ante with threats they've no hope of carrying out, in the hope you'll cave in and pay.

But that's just my humble opinion!

More input welcome :)

Take care,

Elsa xx

Edited by Undercover-Elsa
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Hi Elsa

 

Many thanks for the info, I'll get onto them today.

 

I was thinking the same thing about the CCA, surely if they had a copy and they think its totally enforceable they wouldn't have any problem in sending it to me.

 

I'm sick of all the hassle and at the end of the day I was quite happily paying them £5 per month until they took the file back from BCW and didn't have the decency to contact me and let me know for over a year!!

 

Anyway, thanks again, I'll post up the reply I get back from the ICO.

 

Regards

 

Blue x

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Hi,

 

Received a letter today from Westcot basically saying they refuse to acknowledge my account is in dispute as they have supplied the CCA (see page 2 of this thread) and I should now send them a full payment.

 

Is there anything I can do as I don't believe they have sent me what I asked for. I would like to see the original CCA not something I could type up myself!!

 

I'm tempted to just ignore them and let them take me to court because then they would need to produce the original document - any thoughts?

 

Still no news from the ICO re the SAR yet.

 

Thanks

 

Blue

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if you really wnat to see an original then you should have a read of this:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html

 

Idax

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