Can my employer force overtime on to me?

[Bonafide]

I have worked for a company for 2 1/2 years , 1 year agency then the rest on the books. I have been refusing overtime from the floor manager for a while now and I have been given a letter regarding a meeting I need to attend next Monday with the Production Manager. The meeting is supposed to be regarding my "poor" attendance. I was in a car accident Monday, so I had 3 days off work, got a sick note from my GP. Besides that I have had exactly 5 days off in 2 1/2 years, and this constitutes as "poor" attendance.

 

I feel this meeting will work its way around to being about overtime, which I really don't want to do. One of my fellow employees told me they are going to turn my current 8 1/2 hour shifts [44 hr wk] into 12 hour shifts [60 hr wk] and they are going to do this without any notice (they will want me to do it starting next Monday). I want to know what I can say because really I want to tell them to give me 44 hrs or fire me.

 

Also can I claim unfair dismissal if they do fire me for this?

[Bigmac versus]

Most workers should not have to work more than an average of 48 hours a week, according to the Working Time Regulations. The Regulations also give you rights to paid holiday, rest breaks and limits on night work.

 

 

Your average working hours are calculated over a 17-week period. You can work more than 48 hours in one week as long as the average is less than 48.

 

If you are 18 or over and wish to work more than 48 hours a week, you can choose to opt out of the 48 hour limit. This must be voluntary and in writing. It can't be an agreement with the whole workforce and you shouldn't be sacked or subjected to a detriment (for example, refused promotion or overtime) for refusing to sign an opt-out.

If you sign an opt-out, you have the right to cancel this agreement at any time by giving between one week and three months' notice. You can agree this notice period with your employer when you sign the opt-out. You can cancel an opt-out even if it's part of a contract you've signed.

[Bonafide]

Thanks for the quick reply. I will need to cancel the opt-out because I do remember something about this when I signed the contract but dont remember the exact details (18 months ago). Its good to know I can cancel this. Also what do you think I can say on Monday when they say I need to do the over time?

[Otto12]

The working time directive is a waste of space. It was introduced in 1998 yet millions of people still work more than 48 hours per week. The (UK) government is the only government in Europe which has allowed employers to take advantage of the "opt out" clause, effectively rendering the WTD useless in the UK. I know from bitter experience that some employers pressure employees to sign the opt out.

[Otto12]

Thanks for the quick reply. I will need to cancel the opt-out because I do remember something about this when I signed the contract but dont remember the exact details (18 months ago). Its good to know I can cancel this. Also what do you think I can say on Monday when they say I need to do the over time?

 

You should have a copy of your terms & conditions, is overtime mentioned?

 

I once had a job where my T&C stated that a "reasonable" amount of overtime was expected! What was considered a reasonable amount was something of a grey area...

[Conniff]

This is all academic as Europe has decided that the UK cannot opt out of the maximum working week and our wtd will be changed soon.

[Otto12]

This is all academic as Europe has decided that the UK cannot opt out of the maximum working week and our wtd will be changed soon.

 

Don't hold your breath. The EU has said the UK should "phase out" the WTD "opt out" clause by 2012. What's the betting the government/CBI will get the "opt out" extended after that date...I'd put money on it.

[Conniff]

Don't hold your breath. The EU has said the UK should "phase out" the WTD "opt out" clause by 2012. What's the betting the government/CBI will get the "opt out" extended after that date...I'd put money on it.

 

I hope they do, I think we should have the opportunity to work as many hours as we want. A lot of people enjoy working overtime and many more rely on it to bring in extra money.

[godpikachu]

thing ive noticed about european workers though is that they get paid more, and seem to get more holidays than we do here in the UK.

 

for example, my swedish friend (who has recently been made redundant from his job as a welder at the volvo factory) said to me when he visited that he gets 6 weeks anual leave per year, never works more than a 48 hour week (shift system - 12 hour shifts) and gets paid the equivalent of £35k per year (or £670 per week)....and he was just in a basic level job!.

 

i dunno what £35k is in swedish kroner, but compare that to another friend of mine who is a welder in this country.

 

he regularly does 60 hour weeks, gets a maximum of 2 weeks a year annual leave, and he only gets paid £7.50 p/h. (£450 per week, less tax and travelling costs, total maximum £23,400 PA)

 

the "opt out" sceme is ok in theory, as long as wages are increased to reflect the lost earnings, and bring us more into line with europe, which is a phrase which often gets touted but actually means very little)

[p_cas]

thing ive noticed about european workers though is that they get paid more, and seem to get more holidays than we do here in the UK.

 

for example, my swedish friend (who has recently been made redundant from his job as a welder at the volvo factory) said to me when he visited that he gets 6 weeks anual leave per year, never works more than a 48 hour week (shift system - 12 hour shifts) and gets paid the equivalent of £35k per year (or £670 per week)....and he was just in a basic level job!.

 

i dunno what £35k is in swedish kroner, but compare that to another friend of mine who is a welder in this country.

 

he regularly does 60 hour weeks, gets a maximum of 2 weeks a year annual leave, and he only gets paid £7.50 p/h. (£450 per week, less tax and travelling costs, total maximum £23,400 PA)

 

the "opt out" sceme is ok in theory, as long as wages are increased to reflect the lost earnings, and bring us more into line with europe, which is a phrase which often gets touted but actually means very little)

 

But that's only one part of the equation isn't it? Depends on the cost of living in the country youre comparing the UK with. I haven't looked it up but I have it in my mind that Sweden is very expensive so, although the salary may sound high, it may need to be to allow for the cost of living.

[godpikachu]

well, from what i gather theres not much difference between there and here, moneywise anyways.

 

food costs are roughly the same, as is the cost of a car or a house. petrol is cheaper, as are taxes, but other misc stuff is about the same.

i know my friend was surprised at the cost of a hotel room and alcohol in this country, and was surprised to find out that you had to pay to get into museums and such.

 

his wage, (well, former wage anyways) is still over and above what he would get paid here for doing the same work, plus in addition to that theres the matter of 6 weeks annual paid leave, apparently everybody gets that, some even get more!, and its pretty much the same kind of deal in other countries like france, germany, denmark, norway, italy etc.

 

although that said, my friend is having to consider moving to norway to look for work, as sweden is currently facing a bit of a nasty unemployment crisis, but its not half as bad there as it is here, and, to boot, the swedish government actually give people money towards relocation in order to keep them in work!.

 

Britain is behind the times in regards to its integration with europe, we need to either do like what the rest of the EU do, or withdraw from it, we cant carry on doing this "half and half" crap.

[Bonafide]

As interesting as all this EU V UK talk is, I need to ask something again about my original post.

 

If I refuse overtime (which I have no prior notice for) and they fire me, does it count as unfair dismissal?

[godpikachu]

if they didnt give you notice, yes it would.

[bazak1]

Can you be forced to work overtime, or stopped from doing so?

 

Your contract of employment should include the conditions for working overtime. You only have to work overtime if your contract says so. Even if it does you can't usually be forced to work more than an average of 48 hours per week. If you're told to work more than this and you don't want to, you should first take it up with your employer.

 

Your contract of employment should say what your normal working hours and days are, and this may include or exclude working on Sundays. Whether this counts as overtime working depends on your contract of employment. Workers in betting premises and in retail shops can choose to opt out of working on a Sunday.

[Otto12]

I hope they do, I think we should have the opportunity to work as many hours as we want. A lot of people enjoy working overtime and many more rely on it to bring in extra money.

 

Employees who wish to work more than 48 hours per week should imo be allowed to do so if it is their choice, but how do we protect against bad employers who force/pressure employees to work long hours against their will?

 

48 hours is not just a number eurocrats have pulled out of a hat, research has shown that people who work more than 48 hours per week are more likely to suffer from stress, heart related ill health and divorce.

 

I would question your assertion that "a lot of people enjoy working overtime" I would have thought overtime was worked through necessity rather than enjoyment.

[389shell]

I would question your assertion that "a lot of people enjoy working overtime" I would have thought overtime was worked through necessity rather than enjoyment.

 

I quite enjoy doing overtime, the money obviously comes in handy, but I am one of the rare people who enjoys their job, I have just put in to do an extra 18 hours next week just for the fun of it. My MIL is always at work, I don't know if it is because she loves her job or because it keeps her away from my FIL

 

In reply to the OP, like other people have advised, have a look at your contract and see what it says about overtime, this will be vital in your argument. Also a lot of firms have 'back to work interviews', it is to check that you are OK and that you don't need anything extra to help you with your work, good luck.

Edited February 8, 2009 by 389shell
Added info

[Bonafide]

I made a mistake in the first post, I work 42 1/2 hrs a week... 2 1/2 get deducted for breaks (believe me its not a great job). I think I should offer up to 48hrs, because from what I am reading here, I need to give at least this, otherwise it would not count as unfair dismissal. If they still say 48hr is not good enough then I will tell them thats all I can do it. I wont walk out because obviously walking out is not being sacked... so I cant claim, nor could I claim the dole for 6 weeks if I walk out.

 

Does the overtime include breaks? If it doesnt then it practically means I have to do 2 shifts of 12hrs a week, 1 shift of... maybe 10 hrs, plus 2 regular 8 1/2 hr shifts.

[389shell]

If there is no mention in your contract about compulsory overtime, then you don't have to do ANY.

 

Breaks are not included.