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    • Hi Tawnyowl here,i have been watching events over the last week or so as things develop. Labrat,such a sense of humour.😀 Hi honeybee13 . Sure does     Anti-fracking campaigners have reacted with concern to news that the British Geological Survey (BGS) signed a non-disclosure agreement with Cuadrilla over access to operational data. https://drillordrop.com/2019/08/24/suspicion-over-fracking-firms-secret-deal-with-geological-agency/   Cuadrilla has been accused of trying to downplay last night’s 1.6ML earth tremor caused by its fracking operation near Blackpool. The tremor, at 8.46pm, was the largest so far recorded at the Preston New Road site since fracking began there in October 2018. https://drillordrop.com/2019/08/22/living-in-fear-residents-respond-to-1-6ml-fracking-tremor/ Energy firm Cuadrilla said a 2.23-magnitude tremor was recorded at its facility near Blackpool at 11.01pm on Saturday – the third “micro seismic event” this week. While some local residents may have felt the movement, it was not strong enough to have caused any damage to property, the firm added.  Do you believe anything this company says. Like their so called micro seismic events you would think damage could have been caused to properties. Once buildings start shaking this must happen surely. I was approached this afternoon while at a cricket match. Just chatting way about this and that when the person said Did you feel the Earthquake last night. I had not even heard about it,tell me more i said. Lights and windows shaking moving around about a mile away on one of the North of Englands largest housing estates. And there are reports of many more people feeling this event covered on this link. Why should a community be put through this,waiting for the next one. People living around Cuadrilla’s shale gas site reported shaking buildings and windows last night from a 2.1ML tremor. This is the strongest seismic event so far induced by fracking at the Preston New Road site near Blackpool. It brings to more than 90 the number of tremors since fracking resumed at the site less than a fortnight ago. Within minutes of the tremor, there were reports that people had felt it from surroundings towns and villages including Blackpool, Weeton, Westby, Peel, Kirkham, Wrea Green, Great Plumpton and Lytham St Annes. Much more on the link. https://drillordrop.com/2019/08/25/call-for-fracking-ban-after-2-1ml-tremor-shakes-buildings-around-cuadrilla-shale-gas-site/   You might notice that the BGS has a page now for human activity causing Eartquakes-link Last updated: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 18:10:00 (UTC) This list contains seismic events for which there is strong evidence that they have been induced by human activities. It is linked to a database of seismic events and locations and magnitudes may change as events are re-analysed and revised. Background, tectonic seismic activity is reported on our recent earthquakes list. http://earthquakes.bgs.ac.uk/induced/recent_uk_events.html   I had better leave it there for now, more soon.,how will it all end because surely it will. Things cannot carry on much longer like this,can they? Bye for now. Tawnyowl writing from the Earthquake centre of Great Britain courtesy of Cuadrilla Fracking.
    • happy for mod to move it to suitable location under thread title Background: Thanks in advance for any thoughts you can share. This is a very long history, I appreciate your time. In 2011 I took out a £8500. loan from Borro private finance against art and jewellery to make ends meet. The agreements are attached below. This is a CCA. Borro regulated by the FCA. The interest rate is APR 68.8  % for 6 months.  I paid the interest and capital during the period term. On 3 May 2012  I renewed this loan at 79.4% interest for another 6 months.  Last week I requested all evidence the lender holds concerning the agreements. Missing are 03/05/2012 through 14/06 2013.( not under a SAR).  I fell into arrears on the loan and one piece of jewellery was sold, reducing the balance to £6400. Dec 2014.   The lender took a payment of interest £2044.16.  Renewed against the other items ( art etc) on this loan.  The new interest rate increased to 88.8%  . At the time the ring was sold, I requested all documents concerning the sale. Borro produced none. The ring is appraised at $17,5000.  £14,000.  The ring was sold for £3500.  I have an appraisal. I was notified prior to the sale. The ring was sold by "private treaty". I continued to ask for information about this sale until todays date. No information has been provided.  I took a huge loss . The ring is not clearly described on the inventory compared to the appraisal. Documents missing from Borro response to my request include 25/10/2014 to 10/04/2015. I was in arrears on this loan and a new agreement was made. The loan amount was increased to £10,810.00 and the interest rate decreased to  80%.  what is interesting is that the lender should have sold this ring, the value was sufficient to pay off my debts. But that is not what happened. someone got a deal on a nice ring.  II. ON 1, Jan 2012, I took out a second loan in the amount of £3000 against another piece of Jewellery. The interest was 68.8%. I paid the P&I on this loan.    Missing from the requested information is agreement from July 10/2012 until 12/12/2012.  I did pay interest during that period and on 12/12/2012 through 11/06/2013 I renewed  with an interest rate for 79.4 %.  I renewed on 04/07/2013 through 03/06/2014 interest rate 97.8%.  I renewed this loan on 03/01/2014 interest rate was 88.8. Take note there is very little description about this item. I redeemed the loan but ended up back in the pawn. 19/06/2014 to 18/12/2014 interest eat 94.5%. I renewed this loan again 19/03/2015 . Interest rate was 93.2%. Now there is a clearer description of the ring. Documents missing from Borro response to my request include 012/06/2013 to /10/2014 to 10/04/2015. Information on the  description is also scant until I took the loan out again in 2014. The last payment on either loan was March 2015. Default date was September 2015. The lender still has my property.   PROBLEM: In 2013, Borro became aware that the reason I had pawned these items was that I was a plaintiff in a substantial lawsuit in the US. I borrowed because I had lost my job. I was not able to work( I had been FCA regulated). I was facing eviction, had serious financial stability  and some mental health problems. I gave them a copy of the pleadings. They are aware that I had claimed these loans as part of my damages.  In 2015, Periodically I requested the accounting. Some was provided some was not. As a result, in  2016, the head of credit wrote to me " "Thank you for coming in to see me today. As discussed, we will freeze your accounts with us from today the 14th October 2016 until the 31st of December 2016. This will mean that no further interest will accrue until the 31st December 2016 and we will not consign to sale until on or after the 31st December 2016."  I did not hear from them again until  08 February 2017. On 30/03/2017 I responded to Borro request that I give them an update on the accounts. I wrote that I needed a settlement figure.  No response the following week I personally met with the manager I had been dealing with. She told me that " we are not going to sell your property". We understand that you have fallen on hard times, we are human. How long will it take you to sort this out. I responded about 2 months."   I did not hear from Borro again until I wrote to them on 18/03/2019 where I stated, " the last time we met you were going to give me a settlement figure". There was no response. As a result, on  18 March 2019 I sent  an email to - Subject: RE: Borro Accounts. Dear Lender. Hello. The last time we met, you were going to give me a settlement figure. Litigation is still ongoing. We have a potential investor that has asked me to get a figure from you. Depending on that number, I can let you know if I can pay the bill and collect my things in the next few weeks. Please get in touch as soon as possible". no response.   In early July 2019 I received a call from someone at Borro. It was not a good time. I asked him to call me back the following week. I did not hear from him again either. On  6 august 2019 I received an email from Borro that I should log into my account. I was unable to. The following week I wrote to them and in summary: On 13/08/2019 I wrote and included a summary of the events: I am writing to advise you that I am obtaining advice concerning the  account. You are aware that you have not pursued any further action on this account since approximately 2014(or earlier) . This is because I had an agreement with Name Deleted that Borro was not “going to sell my property,  I recited the above summary of events.   Certainly, I had no intention to give up valuable property for almost 8 years and pay interest and principal for this long. I want to develop a resolution to the matter between us. In order to achieve this, Please can you provide me with the following information which is attached in a spreadsheet: I need a very simple accounting and please answer the below: Any renewed loans where additional credit was extended through the re-appraisal of the assets ( ie using the asset as leverage) to extend further credit where the loan proceeds were applied to the loan for reinstatement purposes. What were the source of funds for the last payment made? Because I am seeking advice with a view towards finding a resolution, I would appreciate it if you could hold action on the above account for a period of at least 30 days to give me the time  I need to obtain advice. If you are adding interest or other charges to the account, I would be grateful if you would freeze these during this period so that my debt does not continue to increase. Please can you send me the enclosed spreadsheet and the documents you loaded into my account as soon as possible. This will enable me to obtain accurate advice. I will contact you again as soon as possible with further details of a  proposal to resolve the account. ( so far this lender has not complied with my request)   SETTLEMENT OFFER From: Borro Customer Service <Contact@borro.com> Sent: 14 August 2019 13:22 To: Subject: RE: Your Loan Account   Dear borrower. Thank you for your email and for getting in touch with Borro. As you would be aware there have been many loans with Borro, with two loans that remain outstanding which we are seeking to resolve with you. Given the significant period these have been overdue, the current balance on these two loans is almost £52,000 of which the majority is interest. In order for you to move on from this debt it is proposed to sell the collateral associated with Loan DIAMOND RING 175643 in full and final settlement and return all the items under Loan 198678 to you. This would generate a loss for Borro of approximately £49,000, however given your circumstance this is something we are prepared to offer. While I would love to pay Borro £3000. I do not currently have the funds. Borro is aware because I wrote to them on august 13 advising them i am not working. I do not want to lose my property. I need to find a way for them to walk away, give me my property back. WHAT ARE MY OPTIONS? Below are the questions I have or could raise in order to "negotiate with them". Is this a high interest short term loan? What are the effects of an CCA that has an interest rate of 93.6% and is renewed every six months? It appears that one loan was "Refinanced".  What FCA terms did they violate which might apply to this situation ? After the agreement expired and terms were changed, what rights does the PB have to collect further payments or sell the ring? Did they waive their rights to further payments? How can I use refusal to produce sale information concerning the first ring, to negotiate my way out of this? What is interesting is, they sold a £14,000 ring privately, concealed the buyer and other information, then turned around and INCREASED THE INDEBTEDNESS substantially. In fact they want to do this again, but this time are offering to  write off £49,000  in other interest. What am I missing? What effect does violations of FCA 6 and 7. help me to negotiate a settlement. Is the FOS effective threat to the firm to pressure a settlement? Does a cost cap apply to these loans and if yes what is the amount of the cap? How can I use the current appraisal and FCA or any other rules to stop them from selling the ring for less than market value? I have someone looking at the accounting to see if there are errors. found several when query. anything you can find that voids the agreements? Anything else you can think of THANK YOU!!!   RING.pdf art.pdf
    • I am so sorry I see the confusion now, I was meant to say CAB not CAG. They are just sending him letters to copy and send which doesn't seem helpful at all.    I also apologise for the vague details right now. I actually thought he had got rid of the car already until he mentioned it as he dropped me off home, so I've only got a vague idea myself, i just wanted to see if there was anything he could do other than send letters. I will get more details from him and update this thread, or get him to join as you have advised.  sorry 
    • It was a late payment, no default 
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Elgrand

Is this Amex application enforeceable

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Hi BRW,

 

I have sent an account in dispute letter and will follow up with the Subject Access request very soon.

 

Hi Rory,

 

I am also guessing that they don't have any more info and the application is just about all they have.

 

But the SAR will unveil that and once I have received anymore info from them I will post accordingly.

 

Thank you both for your support and advice.

Edited by Elgrand
Typo

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Just posting an update on this.

 

I have sent A Subject Access Request to Amex by recorded on the 10th Feb.

 

I have received today a letter from Amex, thanking me for my recent communication and giving them the opportunity to deal with my complaint.

 

They are in the process of investigating issues I have raised and assuring me they will respond within 28 days.

 

I would imagine that letter is the normal kind of response.

 

They also sent me a copy of the complaints procedure and in a separate letter a new card, I imagine to tempt me to use it, which I won't.

 

They are now in receipt of my SAR, so await with baited breath what their response will be.

 

EL.

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Hello El!

 

I would imagine that letter is the normal kind of response.

 

Yep, it's just something wholly automated, routine and as sincere as a seller of pre-used horses from a travelling circus. All it means is they are busy little bankers working behind the scenes trying to work out how to shaft you!

 

It's mainly a file filling letter to make it look as if they are decent, caring and responsible. Something that will look good in their file if they get hauled up by, say, FOS or Trading Standards.

 

Just file it and don't give it any thought at all.

 

Cheers,

BRW

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Hi BRW,

 

I think your comments sum's them up perfectly. You did bring a smile to my face as well.

 

Thank you, will sit tight and and await my SAR.

 

Also thanks for that link to Re: why you shouldnt use section 77/78 CCA 1974 if you want the signed agreement

 

El

 

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Dear Elgrand,

 

I only just found you by accident, as you are showing in the MBNA forum, so would have missed it in new postings.

 

I am so glad I did. I have been trawling for two months trying to find someone with exactly the same application form as mine, and you have it.:)

 

My question is this. On the reverse of the application form they have sent you, did they photocopy "Conditions", which apparently are enforceable under CCA 1974? In fact, was there anything overleaf at all, because the front refers to the Personal Information overleaf, but then just the Terms and Conditions (no mention of overleaf).

 

My so-called agreement was photocopied in the most bizarre way, and I don't think the 'back' would fit on to the front of the application form which is what they are trying to imply.

 

Just about to do a SAR too, but would really love to know where your T & Cs were.

 

Thank you.

 

DD

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Hi DD,

 

Nice to hear from someone with the same application.

 

I guess this is in the wrong place, not sure how to get it moved though.

 

Some answers to your questions:

Nothing on the back of the application form from them at all.

It does mention as yours, we should read the paragraphs set out overleaf which set out how we collect and use information about you for the purpose of providing the card

Nowhere on this application does it mention T & C overleaf.

No Credit limit.

I got a few things attached, such as 2007 T & C's and 11 A4 size pages of what I believe they are implying as the original T & C's, two of those pages have reference to the personal info they speak about as being overleaf. It also mentions your pin, which I don't believe I had in 2002?

 

Hope I've been of some help

 

Thanks Elg.

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Hi DD,

 

Have you got an example of the implied T & C's being on the back of the application form they sent, also, when was that?

 

Since I sent the SAR and the dispute letter, all I've heard from them, is a letter, stating my complaint is being dealt with.

 

Elg.

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Hi Elg,

 

Thank you for coming back so promptly. This means I must have a totally unique application form. :rolleyes: I don't think so.

 

You really have been of immense help.

 

I don't have a scanner, and tried to get the pages I was sent up on photobucket but failed miserably, so I have typed out what I got on my thread Amex 60-Second Application Form - 2000 There might be one or two sections I haven't completed in full - death, bankrupcy, etc.- but everything related to interest, APR is there - all the bits which would be the prescribed terms.

 

As you'll see from my thread, I got just the application form with "Conditions" on the back. They didn't send pages of stuff, just the single sheet of paper. The layout was crazy - the application form was phocopied with the top of the form one-third down the page - top third blank - and the second page started at the very top with the bottom - almost third - blank. This made me very, very suspicious, which is why I have been on the hunt for another "60-second".

 

What they have done I am sure was intended to deliberately mislead me. The "Conditions" are not dated, so clearly they are supposed to be what was on the back of the form. They may well be correct for the time, but I personally think they were on a separate sheet or leaftlet, which of course makes the "agreement" unenforceable.

 

To get your post moved, hit the red triangle at the bottom of the page, and this will let you send a message to one of the site team asking them to move you to Amex.

 

Alphageek and Yeats also have current threads and have had court proceedings started against them. I have no desire for my day in court if I can avoid it, and if there is nothing on the back of the application form, there is a good place to start.

 

Let's keep in touch.

 

DD

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Hi DD,

 

Yes please keep in touch.

 

I will look at your thread very soon.

I don't think they copied the reverse side of the application and if they did, it still wouldn't have the T & C's laid out as should be.

 

I will ask for the thread to be moved and appreciate your help.

 

Elg.

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Thread moved ;)


 
 

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Hi All,

Just got a letter from Amex in response to my account in dispute letter, it's two pages, will post as soon as I have scanned.

 

Elg.

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Seem to have lost the capability to attach anything to this post?

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I will have to type the letter,

 

Dear Mr .....

 

We write further to our letter dated ......... (Response to my CCA)

 

Your Request

 

By your letter Date...............(My dispute letter) you have requested the following information

 

1. A copy of the contract that binds both parties.

 

Our Response in Compliance with the Consumer Act 1974 ("CCA 1974")

 

Please find enclosed for your information

 

1. A copy of the original signed application form ("the Agreement");

 

2. A copy of the oldest terms and conditions that we hold for the account. The original terms and conditions are no longer maintained on our system, but the set provided is substantively the same as the original and should be suitable for your present purposes; and

 

3. A copy of the latest terms and conditions applicable to the account

 

We have not included a copy of the card statements, on the assumption that you already have the originals in your possession. The card statements are evidence of debt and verification of our claim against you. In compliance with Section 78 CCA 1974 the statements show for the period of the agreement:

 

a. the state of the account

b. the amount currently payable by the debtor, and

c. the amounts and due dates of any payments which will later become payable by the debtor

 

Page Two.

 

The Agreement is signed by you and constitutes your acceptance of the terms and conditions of the account. Subsequent use of the account demonstrates continued acceptance of the terms and conditions and willingness to be bound by them

 

We have been advised that the Agreement could only be unenforceable if a. it were not signed by the debtor, or b. it did not contain the prescribed terms as set out in Schedule 6 CCA 1974.

 

In summary, the terms required for a running account credit agreement are:

 

1. A term stating the credit limit or the manner which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit;

 

2. A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement;

 

3. A term stating how the debtor is going to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following--

 

a. number of repayments

 

b. amount of repayments

 

c. frequency and timing of repayments

 

d. dates of repayments

 

e. the manner in which any of the above may be determined;

 

or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

 

We trust the response is satisfactory. If you are of the view that this does not meet your request, we would ask you to provide us with clarification of your request. Amex makes every effort to respond fully to customers ' reasonable enquries, but is unable to offer any further assistance in this instance as is it not clear what additional information is being sought.

 

Yours Sincerely.

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Now with that letter came almost the exact items in the initial response to my CCA. They never sent any statements this time.

 

The application form is the same, without prescribed terms no credit limit, incorrect heading to name a few.

I don't think they have anything else

Could anyone having a read, advise of a good response to this. Should I respond?

They are also now in possession of a SAR.

I guess i should use the CPR.16 route, if the SAR does not unveil whether they have anything else or not.

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

Elg.

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Hi Elg,

 

You'll get more expert advice, but it's clear from what they are saying that the T&Cs (prescribed) terms were on a separate document. They are not trying to say they were on the back of the agreement. For an agreement to be enforceable the prescribed terms have to be within "the four walls" of the agreement. They can be overleaf, or if it's a big document you could have a very large sheet of paper with several folds bringing it down to, say, A4, size, but they absolutely cannot be on a separate leaflet, stapled on, etc. Here is the House of Lords authority:

 

Furthermore in the in the judgement of Tuckey LJ in the case of Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd (2007) EWCA Civ 299

“(11) Schedule 1 to the 1983 Regulations sets out the “information to contained in documents embodying regulated consumer credit agreements.” Some of this information mirrors the terms prescribed in Schedule 6, but some does not.”

Contrasting the provisions of the two Schedules the Judge said:

“In my judgement the objection of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties (with the benefit of legal advice if necessary) and/or the Court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under S 61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of S 127 (3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself; they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated. As a matter of policy the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand they are basic provisions, and the only question for the Court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement.

Also if you read Pelham's post on my thread, from what I have told her about my 'Conditions' there is no annual interest rate stated which is a prescribed term.

%APR is not the same, which I didn't appreciate. I have got to get my whole thing scanned in this week for her, because there could be a number of discrepancies. In the meantime I have sent a very short letter to Amex as I think you know.

I don't know about the situation with saying they haven't got the original T&Cs but have provided something that is near enough. I have seen that excuse given on another thread - not certain if it is an Amex one - and you need to know how to reply to that.

Good luck. I'll let you know when I get a reply too.

DD

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This company really is run by monkeys:p

 

T&C are legal documents.. ok theyre not as important as the agreement but they govern what happens to the agreement in certain circumstances.. as far as I'm aware the S78 is deemed not responded to unless they send a "true copy" of the agreement + the t&c in effect at the time the contract/agreement was taken out plus any variations...

 

Its the reason they sent me 4-5 different copies of t&c's with my front page of the application form.

 

I dont know if a judge would deem this as a catastrophic problem if the orignal t&c's werent available to investigate but they should frown on any company that destroys legal documents without thinking of future implications:-D


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Hi DD,

 

Thank you for all that information and support.

 

I really don't think they have true original copy.

 

They mention in the letter that as the agreement is signed by me it constitutes my acceptance of the terms and conditions and subsequent use demonstrates continued acceptance of the terms and conditions and the willingness to be bound by them.

 

I wonder what a judge would say to that statement, with no original copy with the prescribed terms on it.

 

There's a lot of stuff in this letter that needs analyzing and I need to work out what response if any to send back.

 

I'll keep an eye on yours with great interest too and thanks again

 

Elg.

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Hi PMW and thanks,

 

This company really is run by monkeys:p

 

It does make you wonder.

 

In the letter, they make a statement saying: We have been advised that the agreement could only be unenforceable if............

 

I wonder who is advising them???

 

Elg.

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Morning Elg,

 

By accident I just came across another thread which includes Amex. It is credit card hell If you look at posts 14-17 you'll see that the Contender got the same "substantively the same" rubbish, and the letter Scabhunter said to send. I've just asked the Contender if they have had a reply yet, but probably not as I'm sure they would have posted it.

 

DD

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Hi DD,

 

Many thanks for that, I've had a look and certainly take some extracts from that letter posted by scabhunter (i'm sure that will be ok!)

 

It's quite similar to my initial letter which I also had a lot of help with, putting the account into dispute.

 

I will have to make some changes and make some reference contesting the reasons they think they have a valid agreement.

 

I'm not being lazy, just not too good at writing letter's and getting the wording right, so I don't do myself an injustice.

 

Once I've had a go, I'll post and let you all see and take on board any advice offered.

 

Thanks again,

Elg.

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Forgot to say a big thank you to maroondevo52 for moving the thread.

 

Thanks Elg

Edited by Elgrand
typo/typo

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It is worth preparing yourself for a summons since Amex will almost certainly litigate against you once you have been round the mill with 2/3 DCA's. Amex do not give up easily (if fact they do not give up period), even when they just have an application form to go with from 2002. The one you have posted up certainly does not contain the prescribed terms but a non-CCA 1974 familiar judge (or one that is pro Banks) may not agree, hence you need to prepare your case and arguments very carefully in preparation.

 

I would advise you reading all the Amex threads and also checking out the default notice.

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Hi,

 

Have you two seen Cunning Plan's thread Help! AMEX No CCA and they've started court action ?

 

He posted yesterday that prior to the directions hearing Brachers have written to him saying their clients will agree that their claim should be dismissed subject to there being no costs order.

 

This has been going on for almost a year. Read the thread. Brachers repeatedly failed to come up with a proper CCA, offered a 50% reduction last year and now this!

 

DD

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Thanks Monty

 

I have taken on board all your comments and they are very much appreciated. Looking around the cag at other similar threads does give you an insight on what possibly lies ahead and I am trying to prepare for that.

 

I'm not very clever with this sort of thing but feel confident enough with the help and support I'm getting here, to see it through, no matter what.

 

My circumstances now mean I have no other choice. I'm in a mess and need to sort it out somehow. This site has been like a lifeline for me, a while ago I felt I had no hope and now I'm optimistic that at the very least I will find a way of resolving my problems.

 

So sorry for rambling on.

 

Do you feel there is any point in responding to their last letter?

Or would it be best to wait for the response to the SAR and see what else they come up with.

 

Elg

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Hi DD,

 

Just read that thread, great news, thanks for the info.

 

Elg

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