Ongoing problems with used car from dealer

[bryancm]

Hello all,

 

I'm having real problems getting a faulty car repaired and I hope somebody can help me with where I stand, and what I should proceed with next.

 

I purchased an 04 plate Mazda RX8 from non-Mazda dealer on 18/09/2008 for £8,000, part exchanging my old car in the process. I'm still under warranty (2 and a half months left)

 

Two weeks from the purchase of the car, I noticed starting problems when the car was warm. I informed the garage I purchased from and was told to get the problem diagnosed at a Mazda garage.

 

The Mazda garage I took the car to found that the starter motor was faulty and needed to be replaced. In addition they found that the catalytic converter was ‘broken up’ and also needed to be replaced.

 

A week after informing the garage of the problem they finally arranged a courtesy car for me and took my RX8 to a Mazda garage near them that they 'had a relationship' with. My RX8 was here for 3 and a half weeks before they finally got it back to me, after many chasing phone calls.

 

They replaced the starter motor but were unable to find a fault with the catalytic converter. (Assuming they even tested it). I took their word for it (perhaps foolishly)

 

I did not notice a problem until a couple of months later, when I started to hear a rattling sound when I accelerated from the rear of the car. I again arranged to put the car back into my local Mazda garage for diagnosis

 

They found that the catalytic converter was still broken up and had become so deteriorated that the rattling I heard was from catalyst debris. They have recommended that the complete exhaust system be replaced as well now, as since the broken catalytic converter was allowed to remain in the car, the debris cannot fully be cleared out. The estimate states that the parts alone for this cost almost £2,000, which far exceeds the £1,000 maximum spend I can put through the cars warranty

 

I have documents from the 3 visits my car has had to Mazda garages

• The first from my local Mazda garage where the catalytic converter was spotted as being broken up and requiring replacement
  
• The second from the Mazda garage the dealership put the car into where they state they are unable to find a fault with the catalytic converter
  
• The third, again from my local Mazda garage, stating the problem with the catalytic converter is still present in the car and was causing problems with the exhaust
  

I faxed over the 3 documents from Mazda to the garage I purchased from, on their request. Since then I've left countless messages with staff at the garage who no longer return my calls. I have no other car so I'm stuck driving this around for now, it is not roadworthy and would not get through an MOT in it's current state

 

Where do I now stand with this? Since I have the documents, I can prove the catalytic converter has always been an issue with the car when they sold it to me. I can prove they neglected to fix when it went in for repair. I think I can pursue under sale of goods act.

 

I would ideally like to reject the car at this point but I would also accept a repair

 

Any advice much appreciated

 

Thanks

 

Bry

Edited February 2, 2009 by bryancm
Formatting

[BankFodder]

Firstly you don't need to be distracted by the warranty and its limitations.

You are perfectly well covered by the sale of goods act even though the car is second-hand. This legislation still applies.

The car has to be fit for its purpose and according to your story it clearly is not.

It seems pretty obvious that the seller of the car is trying to avoid you and is hoping that the problem will go away. You could probably reject the car at this point because the defect seems to me to be pretty substantial and also it occurred very early on in the life of the contract and you brought it to the dealer's attention immediately.

This means it is up to you. You can either choose to have the car repaired and then sue the seller for the bill -- or you can decide to reject the car and sue the seller for the entire contract price.

If you decide to have the car repaired then you will have to give the seller copies of two estimates for the work and then claim from him or sue him for the lower one.

If you want to reject the car then you should write him a letter immediately pointing out the list of faults, the steps you have taken so far, the attempts that you have made to contact the seller and his failure to respond. What you are doing by this communication is recording everything that has happened for the benefit of the court and also you are taking steps to show very clearly that you have been reasonable all way through.

If you decide to reject the car -- and this seems to be the best option for you, you will have to return the car to the seller. He may refuse to accept it but you will have to leave it on his forecourt whatever he says. Leave a copy of your letter inside the car. Try to put a copy into his office. And send him a copy by special delivery.

You will then have to begin the process of suing him. This means that you will have to send him a letter before action. I suggest that you only give him seven days. He is clearly not being corporative. In your letter tell him that if you do not have payment in full by seven days that you will issue proceedings against him in the County Court without any further notice. On the facts that you have given here you are bound to win and you will get your summons costs back. Furthermore because the claim is for more than £5000 it will go on to the "fast track" and this means that you will be awarded some limited costs. It is easy enough to do this yourself and you will be able to reclaim £9.25 per hour for the time you have put into preparing the case and attending court. Keep a detailed log of the effort you put into this and any expenses. However be aware that if the seller wins (unlikely) then he will be up to claim limited costs from you.

Your only concern should be whether or not he stays in business. If he is a limited liability company then you will soon his company but if it happens to go out of business then you will have lost everything. If he is trading as a sole trader then you can sue them personally but if you do not have access to his private address then you will not be able to enforce your judgement against his property.

If you have the storage space, then you might prefer to protect yourself by storing the car and writing to him to tell him that you have rejected the contract and that he must collect the car but that you want your money back. In this way you can then go on to sue him and if he goes out of business then at least you still have the vehicle.

This is easy enough to do on your own but you should read up about County Court procedure. You can buy an excellent County Court guide through us or if you prefer can buy it through Amazon. Naturally we would prefer that you buy it through us. Additionally you will find that the small claims kit which is available through us or directly from LawPack, we'll provide you with all the materials you need and extra information.

[MARTIN3030]

It could well have been the issue with the Cat that caused the problems in the first place (starter motor)

There are many ways to check the cat.

A big cause of these failing these days can be going over speed bumps too fast.But poor starting if the Cats has been faulty would explain the extra load on a starter motor.

Nevertheless,they should have changed it when they was aware.A damaged cat also has an adverse effect on fuel economy-and is almost always a fail on an MOT test.

Its not always necessarry to change the whole exhaust-sometimes just the immediate connecting sections.

In other instances cat damage can evolve from oil contamination from Turbo units.

Bankfodder I think answered your rights and what should be your plan of action to seek to remedy everything.

[Conniff]

Obviously BF has his thick lens glasses on - had to put it here to increase the size so I could read it.

 

Firstly you don't need to be distracted by the warranty and its limitations

.

You are perfectly well covered by the sale of goods act even though the car is second-hand. This legislation still applies.

The car has to be fit for its purpose and according to your story it clearly is not.

It seems pretty obvious that the seller of the car is trying to avoid you and is hoping that the problem will go away. You could probably reject the car at this point because the defect seems to me to be pretty substantial and also it occurred very early on in the life of the contract and you brought it to the dealer's attention immediately.

This means it is up to you. You can either choose to have the car repaired and then sue the seller for the bill -- or you can decide to reject the car and sue the seller for the entire contract price.

If you decide to have the car repaired then you will have to give the seller copies of two estimates for the work and then claim from him or sue him for the lower one.

If you want to reject the car then you should write him a letter immediately pointing out the list of faults, the steps you have taken so far, the attempts that you have made to contact the seller and his failure to respond. What you are doing by this communication is recording everything that has happened for the benefit of the court and also you are taking steps to show very clearly that you have been reasonable all way through.

If you decide to reject the car -- and this seems to be the best option for you, you will have to return the car to the seller. He may refuse to accept it but you will have to leave it on his forecourt whatever he says. Leave a copy of your letter inside the car. Try to put a copy into his office. And send him a copy by special delivery.

You will then have to begin the process of suing him. This means that you will have to send him a letter before action. I suggest that you only give him seven days. He is clearly not being corporative. In your letter tell him that if you do not have payment in full by seven days that you will issue proceedings against him in the County Court without any further notice. On the facts that you have given here you are bound to win and you will get your summons costs back. Furthermore because the claim is for more than £5000 it will go on to the "fast track" and this means that you will be awarded some limited costs. It is easy enough to do this yourself and you will be able to reclaim £9.25 per hour for the time you have put into preparing the case and attending court. Keep a detailed log of the effort you put into this and any expenses. However be aware that if the seller wins (unlikely) then he will be up to claim limited costs from you.

Your only concern should be whether or not he stays in business. If he is a limited liability company then you will soon his company but if it happens to go out of business then you will have lost everything. If he is trading as a sole trader then you can sue them personally but if you do not have access to his private address then you will not be able to enforce your judgement against his property.

If you have the storage space, then you might prefer to protect yourself by storing the car and writing to him to tell him that you have rejected the contract and that he must collect the car but that you want your money back. In this way you can then go on to sue him and if he goes out of business then at least you still have the vehicle.

This is easy enough to do on your own but you should read up about County Court procedure. You can buy an excellent County Court guide through us or if you prefer can buy it through Amazon. Naturally we would prefer that you buy it through us. Additionally you will find that the small claims kit which is available through us or directly from LawPack, we'll provide you with all the materials you need and extra information.

 

 

It seems to be fully covered in both the above replies.

[bryancm]

Thanks all for the replies thus far. Today I finally recieved contact from them in the form of an email that I would appreciate input on before I proceed further. This is in direct reply to the letter I sent containing all of the Mazda estimate forms and a request for the work to be done. I didn't quote sales of goods act in this initial letter. Any thoughts on the below much appreciated.

 

 

Dear x,

 

Re: Mazda RX8

 

I have received your letter dated x from which I am disappointed to hear of the problems with your Mazda.

 

For our part, when we delivered the vehicle to you back in September, it had recently had an annual MOT test at an independent testing station. As you know, the MOT test encompasses the catalytic converter, so it is not unreasonable to assume that this component was working efficiently at that time. You were also provided with a comprehensive used car warranty, the basis of which was discussed with you during our sale and delivery process.

 

Taking matters forward, I agree there does seem to be some differing opinions between the two authorised Mazda dealerships that have inspected your vehicle. For our part, based on our experience with catalytic converters on our franchises, the assertion from x that the entire exhaust system now needs to be changed does seem somewhat strange.

 

One fact is entirely clear;

 

on 30th October 2008, x Mazda stated on their invoice number x…….”Catalytic converter in good order”!

 

Therefore, based on the information we have available to us at this time, I regret that we are unable to accede to your request for a full exhaust system at our expense. However, as a goodwill gesture, and without prejudice, we are prepared to replace the catalytic converter and indeed any other component within the exhaust system at your discretion at cost price. Please do not hesitate to contact x if you wish to take advantage of this gesture.

 

Yours sincerely

 

x

 

He has offered a good will gesture to only charge me cost price for the repairs, which I won't be accepting.

 

For our part, when we delivered the vehicle to you back in September, it had recently had an annual MOT test at an independent testing station. As you know, the MOT test encompasses the catalytic converter, so it is not unreasonable to assume that this component was working efficiently at that time.

 

The MOT was carried out on June 29th 2008 whilst in the possession of the previous owner, 3 months before I bought the car. I flagged up the problem 2 weeks after recieving the car.

 

...on 30th October 2008, x Mazda stated on their invoice number x……."Catalytic converter in good order".

 

This is from the Mazda dealership they put the car into, bearing in mind that they have a 'professional relationship' with them: this shouldn't be a problem for me should it? I do have two documents from another authorised Mazda dealer that state the problem existed before and after this inspection. As I've mentioned, one is from just two weeks after I recieved the car.

 

I've had a slight change of heart and I'm going to pursue for a repair since I can't get by without having a car (and I do still love it).

 

I plan to send over the sales of goods act letter templated here: Consumer Direct - Sale of Goods Act 1979 along with a copy of the sales of goods act with relevant content highlighted.

 

Does this seem like reasonable action? I'd prefer to get this resolved out of court if possible, and I think they'll cave in.

 

Many thanks.

 

Bry

[raydetinu]

Yep of go for it and hope you succeed, however be prepared for them to say no, then you will have to get it replaced elsewhere and take them to court to get money back. you will need to explain the course of action you will be taking and give them 7 days or so to respond.

[bryancm]

Thats great, thank you.

 

Do you think there'd be any issue with me getting non mazda parts fitted? (I'm looking at cheaper / better options on ebay currently).

 

I've also been offered a second hand catalytic converter that will cut down the cost substantially too, is there any problem with me buying second hand and claiming back?

 

Thanks!

[simi240]

dont pay nothing im a mechanic an i know how easy it is to diagnose a cat if its rattling chances are its the cat, rev the engine high small bits of the cat fly out, somtimes dosnt rev as it should big piece of the cat stuck in the pipe blocking air flow. chances are the first garage know what to look for. and as for ( it was ok 3 weeks ago ect) they can go whenever they want, most of the time they go when they get hot and melt the ceramic inside.

[patdavies]

most of the time they go when they get hot and melt the ceramic inside.

 

They are designed to run hot. In fact, that have to be hot to operate. this is why

a) an MoT emissions check is not done with a cold engine as the cat hasn't heated to operating temperature0. and

b) why your are specifically warned in your car's handbook about parking over long, dry grass etc. as the heat of the cat could ignite the grass.

 

The usual cause of failure is that the ceramic grids are shattered by grounding the cat - it's the broken bits that you can hear rattling around. It is virtually impossible for a car engine to produce enough heat to 'melt' the ceramic s of a cat.

[patdavies]

Do you think there'd be any issue with me getting non mazda parts fitted? (I'm looking at cheaper / better options on ebay currently).

 

I've also been offered a second hand catalytic converter that will cut down the cost substantially too, is there any problem with me buying second hand and claiming back?

I wouldn't touch a second-hand cat. There is no way to know if it is OK without fitting and testing it.

 

Also, if you use (cheaper) non-Mazda parts, you might have problems with SOGA if other issues develop.

 

I would go back to your Mazda dealer and explain that their Mazda dealer is saying different and how are you supposed to know who is right. f that fails to resolve the state of the cat/exhaust, I would be tempted to contact Mazda GB to referee this major difference of opinion between two of their franchised dealers.

 

If you don't, then the risk is that when you sue, they will trot out the advice of their dealer in defence and state that they were not unreasonable in relying on that advice.

[bryancm]

Fortunately the catalytic converter is from a trusted source so I think I'm going to buy this as a back up plan if all else fails. Don't want to be stuck with the whopping 1k + bill for one from Mazda.

 

I've just sent off my SOGA letter and I'm going to get onto Mazda now to accertain why they have a difference of opinion

 

Thanks for the great advice Pat.

[bryancm]

Bit of an update:

 

They have replied to my SOGA letter and haven't moved on what they originally said. Letter before action time?

[bryancm]

A further update on this:

 

On the advice of consumer direct, I went down the route of contacting trading standards. 5 weeks on and they are still playing phone tennis with the dealer and I'm no further to getting my car fixed. The dealer is speaking to trading standards but 5 weeks on and he hasn't given any indication to whether he'll do the work or not, I think he is just stalling. I can't hold off on getting the car fixed any longer, nor can I cope with the constant dissappointment of dealing with trading standards

 

I would ideally like to go and get the car fixed at a non mazda dealer, I've had a very reasonable quote, and then sue this cost back from the dealer. Is this a good course of action? Or should I now be sending a letter before action to the dealer and awaiting their response before I go out and do anything?

 

Any help appreciated, I'm at my my wits end....

 

Bry

[bryancm]

In addition, I'm also giving thought to getting the car inspected by the AA to give weight to my argument that the car has a broken cat (since their garage said it wasnt) and to give myself peace of mind that nothing else disastrous is going to go wrong with the car.

 

This will cost me over a 100 quid. Is this worthwhile to support my case?

 

Bry

[LancerQRL]

sadly rx8's seem to have more problems than all the other mazda range put together, ones to look out for are body corrosion rework outstanding, oil cooler hose rework outstanding, engine mount problems (over 1k to fix) poor starting (£100+ for spark plugs coils £80ish each), corroding alloy wheels, and the cat problems as in this post, there may be more but those are off the top of my head.