Bailiff advice

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

Hi all,

 

I have some questions regarding council tax, bailiffs etc. I have cut and pasted my letters to Haringey council and there answers to build a picture.

 

1st letter,

 

To whom it may concern,

 

I write in regards to the above property and the late payment of council tax. I am a U.K resident but work primarily now out of the U.K. Thus knowing that my council tax was due I accessed the on line service in order to keep my account in credit. Unfortunately I was unable to pay the account directly, as there was a need for the council to send me a confirmation by post !

 

I have attached the automated confirmation that I received which shows on the 9th of April I accessed this service. My mother monitors my post whilst away, No conformation was received. I there for was unable to pay on time, through no fault of mine.

 

Upon my return to the U.K at my first instant I paid the outstanding TAX and my brought my bill up to date, as I had received a liability order for non payment. Subsequently I have received a demand from Bailiffs, I spoke to a member of your team who informed me that due to late payment the council tax it must be paid in full.

 

How and where do you expect people to just find over £1100 in one go ???? I was told that I must pay the balance and magistrates cost then appeal against this to hopefully recover the £90 cost levied against me there for take this as my appeal.

 

I paid the amount in full only to receive another demand from the bailiffs for £195 they say I owe them. Please look in to this matter, I am a Haringay resident that pays his council tax, I would like the charges removed and my £95 costs refunded as it is clear that I have attempted to pay.

 

Should an amicable way forward not be possible to fine, then please take me to court and send me to prison, as I will not be paying further fines.

.......................................................................................................

There response,

 

Thank you for your email. I can confirm that the Council Tax for this year has been paid in full and we require no further Council Tax payment for this financial year.

 

I am unable to remove the liability order or costs because you did not pay as billed 23rd February 2008.

A Reminder was issued on 22 April 2008. The Reminder states if payment is not received within 14 days, a Summons will be issued. This was not received and subsequently a Summons was issued. Therefore, the Summons was issued correctly and according to Council Tax Legislation Act 1992.

 

When the summons was issued on the 22 May 2008 and you lost the right to pay by instalments. This action meant costs of £83.00 were incurred and you were informed of the Court date, which was 17 June 2008.

The Liability Order was obtained from Haringey Magistrates Court on the 17 June 2008, Court costs of £12.00 were incurred. A letter was issued informing you of the Liability Order being attained. In this correspondence you were requested to contact Haringey Council Tax department to make an arrangement to pay the balance. It warned if contact is not made, one course of action would be the balance being sent to the Council™s Bailiffs for collection. As you didn't contact us to make an arrangement the balance was sent to the Council's Bailiffs for collection.

You state that you requested an online account on 9 April 2008. This was six weeks before the summons was issued and as such you should have contacted us within this time if you had not received any conformation.

I cannot see why we were unable to make payment via another method and as such cannot accept that you attempted to pay. If you were working outside the UK you could have setup a direct debit to make payments for you while you were out of the country or phoned in with a credit or debit card payment. For the reasons above I am not withdrawing the liability order or costs as they have been issued correctly.

 

In future, please pay as billed and you will not be subject to any further action or associated costs.

 

I trust this clarifies the situation and if you require further assistance please do not hesitate to contact Customer Services on 0845 073 3557.

.....................................................................................................

2nd reply to this letter,

 

Thank you for your email,

 

You have made a number of assumptions in your mail. Firstly you assume that I had access to telephone or computer. I work in the middle east at sea not on land. Although I tried to pay my council tax using your online account service, through no fault of my own this failed, and I am disappointed that no allowance has been made for this fact. You acknowledge that you have records of my online account, which is clear evidence of an intention to pay. You state "I could have called and paid", you make this assumption with out knowing the facts. It was not possible for me to pay the council tax by phone as my work required me to be at sea for a number of months during the time that you allegedly served documents. In addition, you should be aware that as I work offshore my banking arrangements are also located offshore and the payment facilities differ from domestic accounts.

 

To turn to the circumstances of the application for the order made by your office, I have only received one letter from the council telling me that a liability order had been obtained against me and this was received after the fact. At no stage have I ever received any form of summons or documentation advising me that you were initiating court proceedings and as you will be aware, such documents are only validly served if received by the respondent. Please could you evidence the dates these documents were drawn up and mode of service of these documents. In this instance, I therefore contend that your actions in obtaining the order were invalid and this should be withdrawn and indeed I shall take action to overturn this on this basis. Your actions are heavy handed and take no account of my personal circumstances.

 

In June when I arrived back in the U.K I paid the out standing council tax, and telephoned your department to explain the situation.

......................................................................................................

There response,

 

Thank you for your e-mail which was received in this office on 5th September 2008.

 

Having checked Council Tax records and as previously advised by my colleague I am unable to withdraw the Summons notice issued, the Liability Order obtained or the costs incurred due to this from your account. My records indicate that a bill was issued dated 23rd February 208, followed by a reminder notice dated 22nd April 2008 advising that your account was in arrears at that time before the Summons notice issued dated 22nd May 2008.

 

Haringey Council unfortunately does not have any control over post once it leaves Council premises and any issues regarding your post being received should be taken up with the Roayl Mail. Haringey Council can also issue your Council Tax correspondence to an alternative address whilst you are not in the uk, but to date I have noted that an alternative address has not been provided. Haringey Council also provides several ways in which to pay Council Tax as previously advised by my colleague and almost one hundred thousand housholds in the Borough of Haringey, taking their own circumstances in to account, make payments for Council Tax using each method of payment available.

 

Please ensure that arrangements to pay Council Taxc are in place for the new financial year commencing 1st April 2009 when your bill for the new financial year will be issued around mid February 2009.

 

I hope that this confirms the position of your account. Should you have any further queries regarding this matter please contact our Cutsomer Services Department on 0845 073 3557 or alternatively please feel free to e-mail the Council Tax in box.

 

.......................................................................................................

 

Now here are my questions, as I am being harassed by Newlands for a total of £185. There letters state I owe Haringey money which I know is crap its just money they are trying to extort out of me for there alleged fees.

 

I spoke to a bailiff last week, I did not let him in nor will I ever. I explained that I owe no CT and my acc is in credit. But they are still harassing me.

 

Can they chase me for there fees ??? I don't understand what they have done to earn said fees, as I paid my CT in full to the council last year. I remember reading some where that if the council excepts payment the bailiff cant not pursue is this true.

 

I have even caught them out lying on the phone, they said they visited my flat three times. I asked them to prove that they had visited. The guy told me I had a black front door blatant lie. I have a stripped wooden door lol

 

Is it worth going to the court for injunction ?

 

Thanks for the help and sorry for such a long post.

[chris600uk]

NO, if you have paid the council the sum owing on the liability order the bailiffs have no power to do anything

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

NO, if you have paid the council the sum owing on the liability order the bailiffs have no power to do anything

 

Nothing owing to the council fully paid up including the liability order. So I will tell the bailiffs to take a long walk of a short pier What ****es me of is that I did try to pay on line before the CT was even due. But there system is so crap it would not let me, thus I ended up paying late and getting fined. I hate labour sorry and especially Haringey.

 

Thanks

Edited January 31, 2009 by Sic vis pacem, para bellu

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

So today I found another threatening demand from Newlands pushed through my lobby door. There letter states ' And may remove goods in your absence'

 

Is this not a threat of burglary ? Surly the council must take responsibility for the threatening letters & actions by bailiffs they instruct ? How can I force the council to call off the bailiffs, as there is no debt.

[DCA-KING]

I would write to the council asking how much is owed for the year in question when they write back and say nowt copy the letter and everytime the baliff calls give him a copy with a letter attached stating a fee of £35 pound is payable for this copy as i owe no council money

Regards DK

[chris600uk]

Protection from Harassment Act 1997

 

1997 CHAPTER 40

 

 

England and Wales

 

1 Prohibition of harassment

 

(1) A person must not pursue a course of conduct—

 

(a) which amounts to harassment of another, and

 

(b) which he knows or ought to know amounts to harassment of the other.

 

(2) For the purposes of this section, the person whose course of conduct is in question ought to know that it amounts to harassment of another if a reasonable person in possession of the same information would think the course of conduct amounted to harassment of the other.

 

(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to a course of conduct if the person who pursued it shows—

 

(a) that it was pursued for the purpose of preventing or detecting crime,

 

(b) that it was pursued under any enactment or rule of law or to comply with any condition or requirement imposed by any person under any enactment, or

 

© that in the particular circumstances the pursuit of the course of conduct was reasonable.

 

 

So start writing, and emailing to them sending copies to everyone, after each contact, pointing out that their behaviour is harassment. quote the act.

 

Appear to be reasonable, don't write emotionally, no pomp either use your own words where-ever possible.

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

I think ill pop down to the police station and make a report, mind you they probably won't be interested. But thanks for the very useful information. How do I tip your scales ?

[chris600uk]

Whoa!

 

You've got to do the preparation work first - otherwise the police will see you as a nuisance and treat you accordingly.

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

So I sent this via email to Newlyn's & the council what do you think ? I am also confused as I paid 6 months council tax in June before they took me too court, and then the full balance for the year in September. Does any one know what the law is if you have attempted to pay before it has gone to the Magistrates ?

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Please find attached a copy of a letter to Newlyn Bailiffs who are acting on the councils behalf, for your reference. Could you please also confirm why a liability order was made against me on the 17th of June 2008 when I had in fact brought my council tax up to date on the 5th of June. Were the magistrates informed that a part payment had in fact been made on the 5th, I also spoke to your offices in June regarding this matter. I now find my self in constant harassment by the council bailiffs which I would point out is illegal as the debt has been settled in full.

 

Re: Account reference No.

 

Newlyn reference

 

I refer to your letter dated 31-01-09 informing me that your company have been instructed by Haringey to enforce a liability order against me, in respect of council tax.

 

In your letter you state that you will be visiting/returning to my home to seize goods unless full payment of £185.50 is made by return. I would point out that the debt was paid in full to Haringey council months ago and, in any event prior to you taking any action to recover it, and Haringey Council have accepted payment and emailed me confirmation that I do not have a debt.

 

The debt was in fact satisfied in part on 5th June 2008 before the liability order was taken out on the 17th of June 2008, and the rest was paid in full in September 2008 thus I reiterate I in fact do not have any out standing debt. The continued harassment by your office is both illegal and stress full. If this harassment does not stop I will report your offices to the police, as I believe you are in breach of the protection from Harassment Act 1997 Chapter 40.

 

The purpose of this letter is to also advise your company that I believe that my circumstances fall within the category as contained within the National Standards for Enforcement Agents of “vulnerable situations”. The reason for this is that I fall in to the category of people who are in receipt of benefits.

 

Accordingly, I would like to request that you do not visit my property, as this would cause further undue stress and anxiety.

 

Further more I would like to advise your company that I am aware of my rights, and that I will not allow a bailiff to enter my home peacefully to levy on my goods.

 

I would be grateful if you could confirm safe receipt of this letter, and confirmation that you will no longer be harassing me.

 

I am copying this letter to my Local Authority.

 

Yours Faithfully.

[chris600uk]

Does any one know what the law is if you have attempted to pay before it has gone to the Magistrates ?

 

Yep, it's really simple (and unfair) - if you owe ANY Council tax and they apply to the magistrates for a liability order - they'll get one.

 

But if you pay the sum listed on the liability order before the bailiff is able to seize/levy then the bailiff has no liability order to collect for.

 

Ergo, the bailiff is stuffed, and they know it.

 

Anything they do after that is unlawful, they know that too.

 

Err, you have informed them and provided a receipt to show that you paid it haven't you?

 

Don't rely on the council to tell them - they probably won't.

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

After writing to the council, they replied by telling me they have spoken to Newlyn and that I am liable to pay the following charges 24.50 for the first letter 18.00 for the second letter and £105 + £38 for van visit & Levy.

 

These are my questions, I live in a set of flats, the only letter I received from Newlyn was not put in too my letter box, but instead pushed under the down stairs communal front door, how can that be deemed as being served ??

 

But my main question is the £105 + £35 van visit & Levy, the bailiffs have never entered my property thus how can they try to charge for a Levy. If they are charging for some thing they have not done, surly this is fraud.

 

Do you think a visit to the local police station is now in order to ask them to investigated fraud.

[chris600uk]

After writing to the council, they replied by telling me they have spoken to Newlyn and that I am liable to pay the following charges 24.50 for the first letter 18.00 for the second letter and £105 + £38 for van visit & Levy.

 

What the council say will be based upon what Newlyns told them.

 

You can write to Newlyns and ask them for a screenshot of your account with them.

 

The significant detail is the date of the supposed levy, and what was levied, and the name of the bailiff attending.

 

These are my questions, I live in a set of flats, the only letter I received from Newlyn was not put in too my letter box, but instead pushed under the down stairs communal front door, how can that be deemed as being served ??

If that is how mail normally gets posted then you can't complain about that as far as I can see.

 

my main question is the £105 + £35 van visit & Levy, the bailiffs have never entered my property thus how can they try to charge for a Levy. If they are charging for some thing they have not done, surly this is fraud.

 

 

They can levy upon a vehicle, but it must be YOUR vehicle and it must be before you satisfied the liability order in full, that is why the detail and the date of the levy is so important.

 

Do you think a visit to the local police station is now in order to ask them to investigated fraud.

 

 

No, you would simply be told that it was a civil matter ( which it isn't) and they would try and fob you off (which they shouldn't but they do).

 

The first thing to do is challenge the fees in writing, sending an email copy to the council tax department, the head of the council tax dept, your councillor, and your MP.

Explain carefully as if to a child why a levy could not have taken place, do not rant, be polite but firm, use a template letter.

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

Mail is not normally delivered in that manner, the postman kindly puts it in my letter box !

 

I have now managed to speak to a drone at the council who seems to have a modicum of intelligence. He has promised to call Newlans to investigated the matter of the Levy charges.

 

The date of Levy apparently was the 26th of August 2008 and my account was paid in full on the 27th of August 2008.

 

I don't own a car, how ever they did write to me telling me they were going to remove a car, which I thought was amusing as it was not mine ;-)

 

Thus they have never been able to Levy any thing against me.

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

I have managed to have the Levy charges removed as they levyed against a car I don't own, now just left with the two letters to argue the toss on.

[chris600uk]

Well if you really want to, you could go down the route of holding them to the letter of the law.

 

As I understand it, the bailiff is entitled to charge for visiting to attempt to collect the debt or remove goods. There is a school of thought that says, to do that they must attempt to speak to you.

 

That would mean knocking on the door, not just sending a letter.

There is no provision in the regulations for a letter fee.

The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992

amended to

The Council Tax and Non-Domestic Rating (Amendment) (England) Regulations 2006

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

I have just phoned Newlyn, asking them to remove the £42.50 for there supposed letters. I tried to explain to the idiot on the phone that if they don't now drop this. I will make a police report regarding them trying to charge me for a levi which they have never carried out.

They are not interested in listening, so its off to the police station. Who else is it worth complaining to regarding there attempted fraud ? As thats what it is as the way I see it would you agree ?

[p4ul]

The police will not get involved.

You need to make an official complaint. I'm not sure how you go about this but someone on here will tell you

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

The police may not want to get involved, but never the less it is fraudulent misrepresentation or worse still trying to obtain money by menaces. They have a duty to take a report. If the bod on the desk will not take it then I will ask to see an Inspector ;-)

[chris600uk]

I suspect you would have to write to the Chief Constable before you will get the police involved, at least that way they will find it less easy to fob you off.

 

However in the first instance I'd be inclined to make a form 4 complaint, which could result in the bailiff who charges excessively or fraudulently losing his certificate.

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

Forgive my ignorance where do I find a form 4 and what is it ?

[chris600uk]

Bailiffs: Complaint about Certified Bailiff - Consumer Wiki

 

It's in the bit we are supposed to read before posting

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

Quick question,

 

My council tax is paid in full, however I have Newlyn chasing me for £42.50 they say "I owe to them for two letters they allege they sent to me".

 

My question is can they try and levy on my goods even if the debt is paid in full to the council? What can they do to try to recover there alleged fees ?

 

I have a meeting with my local M.P in two weeks, as I am trying to get Newlyn investigated for Fraudulent misrepresentation as they tried to extort £130 out of me for a car that they said they levied against. No idea who's the car was lol ( levy charge dropped after the council investigated the fact that I don't own a car )

 

Many thanks

[Tau]

AFAIK, they can only charge for two visits , not letters. So they are stuffed.

Letters are not covered by the statutes regarding council tax recovery.

[PizzaMaker]

Quick question,

 

My council tax is paid in full, however I have Newlyn chasing me for £42.50 they say "I owe to them for two letters they allege they sent to me".

 

My question is can they try and levy on my goods even if the debt is paid in full to the council? What can they do to try to recover there alleged fees ?

 

I have a meeting with my local M.P in two weeks, as I am trying to get Newlyn investigated for Fraudulent misrepresentation as they tried to extort £130 out of me for a car that they said they levied against. No idea who's the car was lol ( levy charge dropped after the council investigated the fact that I don't own a car )

 

Many thanks

 

Excellent. I know someone in the same circumstance. Newlyn claimed to have levied on two cars in the car park near where they live. They even provided details of the registration of the cars. When they were challanged as to why they had levied on these cars, they stated the car was the same make as they were looking for. Surely an illegal levy.

 

They can only charge £24.50 for a first visit and £18 for the 2nd visit. They are not allowed to send and charge for letters.

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

Thats interesting that charges are for visits not letters, as I have a letter from the council stating that they have spoken to Newlyn, and they have charged me for " First letter £24.50 and second letter £18.00 " I wonder how they are going to enplane trying to charge me for letters !!!!

Can some one point me to the page regarding charges so I can print it and show it to my M.P