Taz11 v Co-Op Enforceable cca ??

[Taz11]

Well,Well,Well.. lucky me, I've been given a special offer!!!!...lol After sending a letter to Red Castle Recoveries telling them where to stick their court threat and "doorstep call", I get this from Co-Op this morning. I see it as a small victory and see it as them being on the back foot. Would you agree ???

 

 

I like the bit where it says "the chance to settle the above debt" er ??? where is the above debt ????.......lol

 

[citizenB]

**pout**, I am dead jealous :D

[Taz11]

aaaaah, bless them, they are actually thinking of my best interest after all

 

and there's me thinking they were nothing more than money grabbing individuals. Sometimes your impression of people can be so wrong ...lol

 

When they get it down to ZERO, think I might accept, but I won't hold my breath...lol.

[Taz11]

Just one little twist on this CB, if, as they have previously stated they have sent a default and terminated the account.......how the hell can they then make me an offer???? for an account that has been terminated.??? :confused:

[citizenB]

Just one little twist on this CB, if, as they have previously stated they have sent a default and terminated the account.......how the hell can they then make me an offer???? for an account that has been terminated.??? :confused:

 

 

Ummm, is that a trick question . I truly do not know the answer to that one.

 

Thought, does this mean that Gothia/Red are now off the scene ?. Interesting that you send a bogoff letter to them and you now get this offer from the Co-op ??.

 

BTW, how is your son's friend ? is he off the critical list ?

[Taz11]

Hi CB,

 

Not really sure about Gothia/Red, haven't heard a thing from them, but strange that I've received an offer from Co-Op after my bog off letter I quite agree .............especially from a terminated account.!!!!

 

 

Thanks for asking about my sons friend, unfortunately we had a heart wrenching message from his dad telling us that he is still in an acute coma, and doctors have told them he has brain damage . He has now been in the coma for about 6 weeks without wakening . Unfortunately, the young girl who was also involved passed away:(. It has really hit my son rather badly, you really don't realise what sort of feelings these teens have for each other these days. Many look on at them as yobs, etc..., but I am really surprised how my son and friends bond these days.......even to the point where they hug/greet each other, boys and girls. I think this is great!!! and does show what strong feelings they have at this age.

 

 

Things like that make money problems absolutely trivial .

I feel for the boys parents and brothers/sisters as I have a son exactly the same age, who played football with the lad regularly in a local team.

 

 

thanks again for asking

 

Taz11

[citizenB]

That is truly tragic news, Taz, such a sad waste of life. Yes, it is unfortunate that all teenagers are tarred with the same brush.

 

I imagine as soon as Gothia/Red heard of the situation they passed it back PDQ LOL.

[Taz11]

oh well they seemed to have reared their head again, after "terminating" my agreement and sending a "default" notice, they instructed Red castle recoveries, who I sent packing, and they replied with an apology...lol, and then sent Resolution Legal Services with their tail between their legs.

 

I now have the following, firstly enforceable ??, secondly legible ??, and thirdly if they have to send a copy of a microfiche, can I assume they do not have the original. As ever what would your replies be to this current installment??

 

thanks Taz11 oh and these are exactly how I received them:confused:

img010.pdf

img011.pdf

img012.pdf

img013.pdf

[citizenB]

Hmmm, and what, I wonder are those supposed to prove ?

 

This is still for only one of the accounts, yes?

 

Is there anything that links those pages together ?

 

Almost certainly I would suggest they come under the heading of illegible and I would think they are microfiched copies, badly scanned in the first place as well.

 

Unfortunately, I would like to say that this proves that they dont have an original copy.. but I think that might be a bit presumptious. However, I would be seriously wondering why, if they do.. why they just havent sent you a copy of it.

 

I would say that this has now been passed back to the Co-op with Red having considered it a bit dodgy to handle.

 

Give me a couple of hours and I will look for a response for you.

[citizenB]

Taz, I have been looking for a letter that deals with illegible documents. At the moment I am not having any luck. Will continue looking and post it up for you as soon as I find one.

[Taz11]

Hi CB,

 

Thanks so much. I'm sure, like yourself, assuming that they do not have an original. Apart from the obvious illegibility, I'd like to see them produce an original in court.

 

 

Taz11

[whoopi73]

Hi Taz - sorry to intrude on this thread, I too have a similar issue with Co-Op and have recieved

1. DN word for word the same as yours - this was in March for me.

2. Letter as per your last attachment with a copy of the front page of an application form and a printout of internet terms etc. (Never even had the internet in 1999 but they infer I must have "clicked" to accept....?) in June 2009.

 

I have sent three letters and now have had a call from their risk team (step before legal dept she told me) and want to know when can I pay? I've requested the CCA again on the phone (I know I shouldn't discuss with them verbally but I can't help it...:o). Problem with Coop is had they not added purchases and withdrawels to my account after it was cloned last year I wouldn't have even started looking at validity etc. Discovered numerous cloned and fraud transactions.

[citizenB]

Taz,

 

You might be able to do something with this one.. provided by Vint1954 on another thread.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2384734.html

 

 

 

 

xxxxxx 2009.

 

Dear xxxxxxxxx,

 

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

 

Re account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xx

 

I write regarding recent communication regarding the above account.

 

Further to my request under the above act, your attention is drawn to the fact that this account is now subject to a serious dispute. On xxxxxxxx, by recorded delivery, I requested that you supply me a copy of the executed credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78, a copy of this request is enclosed. To date you have failed to comply with my request, instead supplying me with an illegible and unenforceable document, that may or may not be an agreement. Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to you, nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I have to date only received terms and conditions from yourselves. I suggest that you provide me with a copy of the origional document.

 

I would remind you that while this alleged account remains in dispute, that you:

• May not ask for payment against this account.
  
• I am not obliged to offer any payment against this account.
  
• Cannot register any data with a third party.
  
• Cannot take any enforcement action, including registering Defaults.
  
• Cannot pass the account on to a third party for collection.
  
• Cannot sell the account.
  

Contrary to your assertion, xxxxxxxx have not complied with the terms of CCA 1974 s78. The documents that you have supplied, do not comply with your duties to supply a “True Copy” of any agreement you claim to have been signed by me.

 

In a recent letter from the enforcement department of the OFT, the text below was quoted, explaining what is required.

 

“The copy of the executed agreement need not be an exact copy but it must be a ‘true copy’ and not some reconstruction of what the original might have been and it must contain the same terms as the original. Where the terms have been varied as provided for within the agreement, the copy of the original agreement must be accompanied by a document setting out the current terms, as varied. Certain details may be omitted from the original agreement eg the signature but the debtor must be in no doubt as to the true nature of his obligations under the loan.

 

Should no original agreement be in existence it is very hard to say that the copy the creditor offers to the debtor is, in fact, a true copy as there would be no original with which to compare it. In our view the onus of proof would be on the creditor to show that the copy is a true one and where none existed he may have difficulty discharging this. Neither should creditors suggest that a consumer has signed a credit agreement where they are unable to provide evidence to support this — to do so is likely to be a misleading action under Regulation 5 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (the CPRs) and would also constitute an unfair or improper business practice.”

 

 

I also refer you to the information below.

 

1. A valid credit agreement must contain certain terms within the signature document (s.60(1)(2) CCA 1974). These core terms are the credit limit, repayment terms and the rate of interest (SI 1983/1553 (6 Signing of agreement) which states that the prescribed terms must be within the signature document. (Column 2 schedule 6). s.61(1)(a) states the agreement must contain all the prescribed terms and be signed by both the debtor and on behalf of the creditor.

 

 

 

2. Further, s.127(3) CCA 1974 makes the account unenforceable if it is not in the proper form and content or improperly executed.

 

In Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd (2007) it was stated “In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties … and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under s.61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127(3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement”.

 

2. The need for prescribed terms to be contained in the credit agreement is confirmed by the Author of the CCA1974 act, I quote ““As the draftsman of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 I would like to thank Dr Richard Lawson for his interesting and well-argued article (30 August 2003) on Wilson v First County Trust Ltd [2003] UKHL 40, [2003] 4 All ER 97.

 

 

Dr Lawson may be interested to know that I included the provision in question (section 127(3)) entirely on my own initiative. It seemed right to me that if the creditor company couldn’t be bothered to ensure that all the prescribed particulars were accurately included in the credit agreement it deserved to find it unenforceable, and that the court should not have power to relieve it from this penalty. Nobody queried this, and it went through Parliament without debate. I’m glad the House of Lords has now vindicated my reasoning and confirmed that nobody’s human rights were infringed.” - 167 Justice of the Peace (2003) 773.”

 

 

I am now granting to you a further 7 days to produce a copy of an executableagreement.After that I will consider that the above matter is closed and that you will no longer pursue the alleged debt.If you are insisting that the non enforceable document, that you have supplied, is the only alleged agreement in your possession, then I would suggest that the best course of action would be to immediately set the balance of the above account number to zero.

 

I look forward to your response.

 

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17.03.09

[Taz11]

Hi CB,

 

As you can appreciate I have other concerns at the moment , but this is an excellent find. This will be copy and pasted asap and will be sent recorded. Thanks once again CB, another top post from you.

 

thanks again and much appreciated

 

Taz11 xx

[Taz11]

Well, I got a reply CB with regards to the letter you posted above,

 

Apparently , they are going to rely on this document:??. (one posted above) Thoughts appreciated.

 

thanks

Taz11

co-op 8th sept.pdf

[citizenB]

Well now, TBH, I dont see how they can.. because it is a load of rubbish:confused:

 

Not sure where you go from here, Taz. Lets leave it until tomorrow and see if you get any more contributions.

 

The only thing I would say you are left with is a complaint to the OFT. They, of course will do nothing for the individual, but they will record the complaint and as and when they receive sufficient they will investigate.

 

The letter you need to send, along with a copy of the duff application/agreement and the most recent letter from the co-op is ....

 

HERE

 

I would also suggest you copy the letter to the co-op advising what steps you have taken.

[Taz11]

Thanks CB, to be honest I haven't heard from Co-Op for ages until DCA's crawled back under their appropriate rocks :D. At which time I obviously received the illegible document and the recent letter. If I receive any other threats from them, I'll follow the course of action as you suggest...........I'm just expecting another batch of dca's....lol. I do hope they try court, and produce that rubbish I attached above..............as, according to them they are relying on it

[exasperated]

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