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CL/Cohen claimform - old goldfish card 'debt' **DISC'd WON**


scarydays
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I have an CC debt originally with Goldfish. I ran into financial difficulties last year and agreed a repayment plan with a company called Newman who Goldfish has passed the debt to. This worked well. However, back in August when I telephoned to pay my monthly payment they told me that goldfish had taken the debt back off them and I should contact them. Goldfish said they had not done this, but perhaps Newman had passed the debt to someone else. Either way I was to sit tight and wait for another organisation to contact me regarding payment. In this timeframe Goldfish also transferred their business to Barclays.

 

I didn't hear anything. I did contact both newman and Goldfish again on a couple of occassions, as was keen to ensure I was not missing any payments, but was given the same information.

 

Last week I received a couple of letters forwarded from the tenant at my old address (have been at new address since Oct 2005) from a company called CL Finance Limited. The letters said they had taken over the debt and were happy for me to continue with the payment plan. When I telephoned them to pay them they said as they had no response from me the matter was now filed with Northampton County Court. I explained that I had only received the letters as they had been sent to my old address and I was not sure how that had happened, as all correspondence from Goldfish and Newman had always been to my new address.

 

I contacted the court and they have sent me copies of the claim forms (N9A & N9B). I don't dispute the claim that I owe the original debt and am happy to continue paying the amount agreed, but I now have £290 worth of charges on there that I dispute, as it is not my error that these letters were sent to a (very) old address. I am concerned though that if I contest that portion of the debt, I will firstly have to appear in court, which will cost me money to get to Northampton, and secondly, can they just rule that I do owe it all, and therefore risk getting a CCJ?

 

Should I just admit I owe all the debt, ask that they reinstall the payment plan, and move on?

 

Sorry for the long winded query. I hope someone can assist.

 

Many thanks

 

SD

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Hi scarydays, and welcome to CAG. You'll get lots of help and support from the forum members.

 

Can you post the Particulars of Claim (POC) on this thread, minus any figures and your personal details.

 

Have you acknowledged service yet? If not what is the latest date that you can do that? When do you need to submit your defence by?

A couple of hundred years ago Meyer Amshel, (1743-1812), founder of the Rothschild dynasty is reported to have told his five sons, “Let me control a nation’s money and I care not who writes its laws”.

 

PLEASE NOTE - I am not a legal expert, what I have written is my own opinion garnered from reading this forum and consumer legislation, and my own experience of the judicial process.

 

If I have been helpful, please feel free to tickle my scales!!

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What is the issue date of the claim? (Its in the top right hand corner of the claim from the courts).

 

You only have a set amount of time to respond to the claim and as it was sent to an old address and has only just reached you, I'm guessing you've missed that date. In which case that will be the first thing to tackle.

 

Best if you stop talking to them on the phone and keep everything in writing from now on. It would also be a good idea if you don't acknowledge the debt, in case they haven't followed procedures and you can dispute the debt (if you wanted to).

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Hi there Scarydays – difficult for me to advise you really unless you intend to defend the claim – have you had a copy of the credit agreement and do you know if it is enforceable?

Personally, I think you may as well put up a fight because the claim has been issued – you can always throw the towel in before going to court if you feel you can’t defend.

The first step in the process is to establish if CL have a case – they might just be hoping you don’t defend. At the moment you don’t know exactly what CL have to back up their claim do you? For the cost of a letter you may as well request the information from them and see what turns up.

I will post up a copy of the letter I sent to CL’s solicitors on my thread – feel free to copy/adapt to your needs.

If you decide to send the letter requesting the information before submitting your defence you must first submit your acknowledgement of service – you can do this online by going to the moneyclaim website and entering your claim number and password. You only have a limited amount of time to submit your defence after completing the AoS so you need to be completely on top of your timelines.

If you decide to defend on the basis that they can’t provide the relevant info your case will eventually be moved to your local court. CL use Northampton because they can process there claim online and don’t have to bother issuing you important things like credit agreements.

Ask as many questions as you need to and someone will try to help – ultimately you have to make the big decisions and there are no guarantees that you will win but I suggest you make the decisions from an informed point of view – you do have rights you know!

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Thank you for your replies.

 

OK the case details which are attached to the forms are as follows ....

 

The Claimant's claim si for the sum of £x being monies due from the Defendant to the Claimant under a regulated credit agreement between the Defendant and Barclays Bank plc T/a Barclaycard under reference nnnnnnnnnnnn8534 and assigned to the claimant on 19th September 2008

 

The defendant has failed to make payment in accordance with the terms of the agreement and a default notice has been served upon the Defendant pursuant to Section 87(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The date of issue is 12-Jan-09

 

Date of Service is 17- Jan 09.

 

I posted on another thread with a similar problem. I actually never had a barclaycard. I believe this to be a goldfish account that was moved to barclays.

 

Many thanks.

 

SD

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Hi - just to add to the above, having just looked at Eddiepae's submission, which is related to mine, I acutally don't have a POC. I have received no details from the solicitors (Cohens) I was transferred to them by telephone when I called CL Finance in relation to the letters I received from them. I told Cohens that my address details we wrong and gave them my correct details. They told me on the phone and gave me the number of Northampton court. I telephoned the court, and it is the court that have sent me copies of the forms, a blank claim form, and an attached page which it describes as case details which is where I got the above information from. Thanks.

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Try sending something like this -

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Re: CL Finance Limited v xxxxxxx xxxxxxxx Claim Number xxxxxxxxxx

 

On xx/xx/xxxx I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the County Court Bulk Centre, Northampton. I confirm having returned my Acknowledgement of Service form to the court indicating my intention to contest all of the proceedings.

 

REGARDING YOUR CLAIM:

You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 paragraph 7.3: where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to, or served with, the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached

 

DISCLOSURE AND INSPECTION OF DOCUMENTS:

I request, in accordance with CPR 31.3(1), the inspection of the original version of the following document which has been disclosed in the Particulars of Claim:

 

1. The written agreement, giving rise to the obligation to Barclaycard for the credit advanced, upon which CL Finance Ltd have based their claim.

 

In addition, and in accordance with CPR 31.15©, I request a copy of the document referred to in [1]. I also require, under the same CPR 31.15, a copy of the default notice and a copy of the notice of assignment referred to in the particulars of claim. A copy of the agreement referred to in [1] will not be required if you intend to supply a copy in accordance with CPR PD 16 paragraph 7.3 – what is important is that you comply with my request and supply a legible copy of the consumer credit agreement upon which your claim is based.

 

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the documents I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31 request.

 

 

 

REQUEST FOR FURTHER INFORMATION:

At present I am unable to ascertain how the claim for the amount of £xxxx.xx has been arrived at and if the amount is an accurate representation of any debt allegedly owed to your client. I therefore request, within the next 14 days, a copy of a complete set of statements that cover the term of the agreement, from its inception until its termination, referred to in the particulars of claim.

 

Failure to supply these statements will put me at a disadvantage regarding any defence or counter claim that I might wish to enter regarding part of or your entire claim. If you are unwilling to supply this information I will ask that the court orders you to do so in accordance with CPR part 18 and request that my defence be amended upon the production of such information.

 

If you require more time in which to comply with any of the requests made in this letter you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with any request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request.

 

If you are unable to comply with that part of my request concerned with CPR 31 and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing within the next 7 days.

 

Please note that if you should fail to comply with any part of this request or fail to request more time, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

Yours faithfully

Print Your Name

 

That will give them something to do – If they don’t respond and you need to get your defence in then shout up – I’ve got one waiting in the wings – My date of service is after you so you need to get your defence in before me – keep your thread up to date with any developments and as has been said avoid talking on the phone.

 

Good luck and stay calm.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by atwozee
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It would be worthwhile sending the letter using Royal Mail Special Delivery, it'll cost £4, but you can track and trace and print off the delivery signature from the Royal Mail site for your court file.

A couple of hundred years ago Meyer Amshel, (1743-1812), founder of the Rothschild dynasty is reported to have told his five sons, “Let me control a nation’s money and I care not who writes its laws”.

 

PLEASE NOTE - I am not a legal expert, what I have written is my own opinion garnered from reading this forum and consumer legislation, and my own experience of the judicial process.

 

If I have been helpful, please feel free to tickle my scales!!

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Or signed for – which is quite a bit less – you get a tracking number and can trace it via the royal mail website.

Chances are they won’t reply anyway so you will have to ask the court (in your defence) to order them to comply with your request.

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The Claimant's claim si for the sum of £x being monies due from the Defendant to the Claimant under a regulated credit agreement between the Defendant and Barclays Bank plc T/a Barclaycard under reference nnnnnnnnnnnn8534 and assigned to the claimant on 19th September 2008

 

Hang on a second, before you do anything else....

 

Its possible them stating Barclays in the POC is a mistake, rather than it being due to them now owning the Goldfish accounts.

 

In the letters you've received from CL Finance, who do they say that the card agreement was with?

 

Barclays or Goldfish?

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Thank you DocH, Blueboy and Atwozee for your replies. I will check the letters I have been sent to see what they make reference to and make a decision on what to go forward with. It's been really useful getting info from you all. I am really at sea with all of this, and quite frightened about the consequences. Thanks again.

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Its possible them stating Barclays in the POC is a mistake, rather than it being due to them now owning the Goldfish accounts.

 

This is why you must get a copy of all the relevant documents – if the original agreement turns up showing that it’s a Goldfish account then there will be another paper trail to follow – was there a valid assignment of the account to Barclaycard and so on.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi there, I'm back looking for more advice.

 

I sent the acknowledgement of service form to the court and now need to submit my defence by this Friday, 13th.

 

I sent the letter suggested above by Atwozee to Cohens but have so far not had a response.

 

Any help as to what I need to put in the defence would be really helpful.

 

Thanks

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Hi scarydays, you might send atwozee a PM as he mentions in an earlier thread that he has a defence prepared for you.

A couple of hundred years ago Meyer Amshel, (1743-1812), founder of the Rothschild dynasty is reported to have told his five sons, “Let me control a nation’s money and I care not who writes its laws”.

 

PLEASE NOTE - I am not a legal expert, what I have written is my own opinion garnered from reading this forum and consumer legislation, and my own experience of the judicial process.

 

If I have been helpful, please feel free to tickle my scales!!

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I will be using something like this one - there are other versions on the forum though so you might want to search through the CL Finance threads - The main thing is to get the court to order CL finance to supply you with the info - then you can decide if you still want to defend.

 

If you submit your defence online then there is a maximum 8000 characters - this is way under - .

 

1. I xxxxxxxxx of xxxxxxxxxxxxx am the Defendant in this action and make the following statement as my defence to the claim made by xxxxxxxxxxxx

2. Except where otherwise mentioned in this defence, I neither admit nor deny any allegation made in the Claimants Particulars of Claim and put the Claimant to strict proof thereof.

3. The Defendant is embarrassed in pleading to the Particulars of Claim as it stands at present, inter alia: -

4. The Claimants' particulars of claims disclose no legal cause of action and they are embarrassing to the Defendant as the Claimant's statement of case is insufficiently particularised and does not comply with CPR part 16. In this regard I wish to draw the courts attention to the following matters;

a) The Particulars of Claim are vague and insufficient and do not disclose an adequate statement of facts relating to or proceeding the alleged cause of action.

b) The Claimant refers to a regulated credit agreement within the Particulars of Claim but does not substantiate the type of regulated agreement or the date upon which this agreement was executed.

c) A copy of any evidence in relation to any amount outstanding under the agreement has not been served attached to the claim form nor has any attempt been made by the Claimant to substantiate how the amount claimed has been reached.

d) A copy of the purported written agreement referred to in the Particulars of Claim has not been served attached to the claim form, or served under separate cover. In accordance with the provisions of CPR PD 16 paragraph 7.3:

‘where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to, or served with, the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.’

5. The Claimants claim is based upon a regulated credit agreement for a Barclaycard credit card account number xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and that agreement is regulated under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (“CCA”) and that agreement being a multiple agreement as defined in section 18 of the CCA shall be regulated accordingly. See Office of Fair Trading v Lloyds TSB Bank plc [2006] EWCA Civ 268 paragraphs 39, 41 and 59.

6. The written agreement referred to in [5] must comply with the provisions and regulations of the CCA and if it is to be enforced by a court order it must comply with the minimum provisions of section 127(3) of the CCA. See Wilson and Anor v Hurstanger Ltd [2007] EWCA Civ 299 Paragraph 11 and Wilson v First County Trust Ltd [2001] EWCA Civ 633 paragraph 26.

7. The prescribed terms referred to in section 127(3) of the CCA are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553). See Wilson v First County Trust Ltd [2001] EWCA Civ 633 paragraphs 3, 4, 5.

8. For a creditor to be entitled to terminate a regulated credit agreement where there is a breach, demand repayment in full or take any legal action to recover any monies due under the agreement, a creditor must first serve a Default Notice under section 87(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and, in accordance with section 88(1), it must be in the prescribed form. The Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations 1983 sets out the prescribed form for such a Default Notice. The particulars of claim refer to a Default Notice served pursuant to section 87(1) and the Claimant is put to strict proof that such a notice in the prescribed form was served and is valid. See Woodchester v Swayne [1998] EWCA Civ 1209.

9. In a letter dated xx/xx/xxxx and received by the Claimants solicitors on xx/xx/xxxx the Claimant was asked to provide information, in accordance with CPR 31, and that which is necessary before the Defendant is able to submit a fully particularised defence or counter claim.

10. The Claimant has thus far failed to supply any of the requested information or copies of documents and I am unable to submit an adequate defence or counter claim. It is requested by the Defendant that the court, in accordance with CPR part 18, orders the Claimant to comply with the following request for information.

a) Inspection of the original written agreement upon which the Claimant’s claim is based and/or for the original agreement to be made available in court.

b) A copy of the written agreement.

c) A copy of the default notice.

d) A copy of all statements/transactions showing how the claim of £xxxx.xx has been reached.

e) A copy of the notice of assignment sent by the assignee to the defendant in compliance with s136 of the Law of Property Act 1925.

f) A copy of the assignment, referred to in the notice of assignment, giving the claimant entitlement to the make the claim.

11. The Defendant respectfully requests that, upon receipt of the documents requested in [10], sufficient time is allowed to submit an amended defence and counter claim.

12. The Claimant’s claim to be entitled to £xxxx.xx or any other sum is denied.

 

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Many thanks Atwozee. Is it worth mentioning in my defence that CL Finance were writing to me at an address I lived at 3 and a half years ago (it was only luck that my husband was down that way and bumped into the new people there) and also that my claim form came blank - there are no details on it at all.

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You can save that for later – if it goes any further of course – at this stage it’s not really relevant.

Without providing the info you’ve asked for they don’t have a case – if they can’t provide the info they will probably discontinue – it’s a bit of a waiting game unfortunately.

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Ok - so I submitted my defence, it was due in today.

 

And today I receive a letter from Howard Cohen.

 

This time the letter is entitled RE: GOLDFISH CREDIT CARD DEBT

 

We refer to your recent letter in which you have made a request for information under the Civil Procedure Rules.

 

We are not obliged to provide this information, and would advise that the particulars of claim detailed in the County Court Claim Form should be sufficient to allow you to respond accordingly.

 

Please reply to the claim form immediately. Please refer to the Claim Form for details of the time limit by which you are expected to respond. Failure to do so will result in a Judgement being entered without reference to you.

 

If you are in any doubt as to your position in this matter, please seek your own legal advice.

 

So ..... what do you make of that?

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If you sent a cpr 31.14 letter then they are talking rubbish.

They will have to provide the information at some stage – once they see your defence they will realise they have a bit of work to do – they have 28 days from receiving your defence to decide whether to continue – keep an eye on the date because if you don’t here anything after this time you can apply for the case to be struck out.

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Well they don’t have a valid reason not to comply – it’s in your defence anyway so it will be highlighted to the judge – if it gets that far of course. I can’t see them paying the fee unless they can provide the info.

The court will send you a letter letting you know when the claimant was sent a copy of your defence – you can phone the court to find out when it was sent – add 4 days for post and that would be the day.

Keep your thread updated and let’s see where it goes from here.

Make sure you have a read of the case law that you put in your defence and if there is anything you don’t understand then shout up.

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There is apparently a 3 week backlog at Northampton, so there may be some delay in forwarding your defence to the claimants:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/175368-urgent-need-defend-ccj-5.html#post1978569

A couple of hundred years ago Meyer Amshel, (1743-1812), founder of the Rothschild dynasty is reported to have told his five sons, “Let me control a nation’s money and I care not who writes its laws”.

 

PLEASE NOTE - I am not a legal expert, what I have written is my own opinion garnered from reading this forum and consumer legislation, and my own experience of the judicial process.

 

If I have been helpful, please feel free to tickle my scales!!

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I have received an acknowledgement form the court today that they received my defence and a copy has been passed to the claimant. So I guess the clock starts ticking on the 28 days. It says the claimant may contact me directly to resolve the dispute informally - will this be in writing, or will they try to contact me by telephone? And if/when they do contact me, do I just keep insisting that they provide the documentation requested?

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  • 1 month later...

OK - update from me.

 

I have today received some info from Northampton court. It is notification that the case is to be moved to my local court and an allocation questionnaire to be completed by 3rd April.

 

I have received nothing from Howard Cohen.

 

Can I now apply for this to be struck out?

 

The POC states this is for a Barclaycard - I have never had a Barclaycard.

 

The orignal documentation from HC and Northampton was sent to an address I vacated 3 and a half years ago. It was only by chance that my Husband was in the vicinity and happened to bump into the new occupants.

 

I have requested information from them as part of my defence and have not heard anything.

 

So what next? Would love some more assistance.

 

Thanks

 

SD

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Did Howard Cohen send you a letter stating they were amending the POC?

 

If the account number they quoted on the claim valid, ie is it the number of an account you held with Goldfish or whoever?

 

Next step is to complete the allocation questionnaire and return it by the date stated on it. I'm sure someone can help you with it, you could use the one I used recently but you may need to make some changes as your case is a bit different.

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