Natwest Loan CCA - Whats wrong with it? Can You spot it?!!

[Josie8]

Any more RBS? Narwest handwritten agreements out there

[BeerFun]

My problem is that as the amount is over £25000 its not covered by CCA, and therefore, I cant argue that "under CCA" its un-enforcable!!!

 

See my issue?!!!!!!!!!!

 

I guess all I can do is argue that it was miss sold as a loan agreement?

[paulwlton]

When I first wrote to NatWest asking for my CCA, they set a letter stating that as the amount was over £25000, that it wasnt covered by CCA, when 3 days later that CCA loan agreement turned up!!!!!!

 

Now, should I write to Natwest or just go into the branch waving the copy and demand to know why I had been miss sold a loan???!!

 

I would hold tight...where was this agreement sent from.

 

I've pmd you my email

 

Paul

[Josie8]

My problem is that as the amount is over £25000 its not covered by CCA, and therefore, I cant argue that "under CCA" its un-enforcable!!!

 

See my issue?!!!!!!!!!!

 

I guess all I can do is argue that it was miss sold as a loan agreement?

 

 

It is a regulated agreement becuase that is what they have entered into with you. The fact that it exceeds the £25,000 limit makes it unenforceable. It does not change to an unregulated agreement. They are stuck with having issued you with a Consumer regulated loan that doesn't comply.

 

So cool down....there's nowt they can do...................

[cadencealex]

Just make sure they don't default you

[BeerFun]

Thanks Josie,

 

 

 

I received it from East lending centre, via the Credit Management lot at kendal court, as thats whos address I had for writing to.

 

They had tryed to take me to court last year, twice (they wanted bigger payments!), but every time i went into the court Natwest didnt send anyone, so the judge just asked me what i wanted to do, and I said "pay a small amount each month" and he agreed!!

 

Better if I can just get rid of it!

[BeerFun]

Just make sure they don't default you

 

 

Too late!!!!! buggers done that

[cadencealex]

Too late!!!!! buggers done that

 

 

Tell them to remove it then seeing as they can't enforce the CCA

[paulwlton]

Thanks Josie,

 

 

 

I received it from East lending centre, via the Credit Management lot at kendal court, as thats whos address I had for writing to.

 

They had tryed to take me to court last year, twice (they wanted bigger payments!), but every time i went into the court NatWest didnt send anyone, so the judge just asked me what i wanted to do, and I said "pay a small amount each month" and he agreed!!

 

Better if I can just get rid of it!

 

CMS Telford.

[BeerFun]

So does anyone have a link to a suitably worded letter template?

 

Im not good with the various CCA quotes for the right bits

[cadencealex]

CMS Telford.

 

 

 

That is completely illegal Paul - why haven't you done anything about this?????

 

Recreating agreements means fabricating them

 

ILLEGAL

[paulwlton]

That is completely illegal Paul - why haven't you done anything about this?????

 

Recreating agreements means fabricating them

 

ILLEGAL

 

I have tried.

 

How trustworthy is your bank? | Money | The Guardian

MP fears bank's phantom paperwork may be just the tip of an iceberg | Money | The Guardian

Couple stung by £100,000 ‘secret’ loan - Times Online

[cadencealex]

I have tried.

 

How trustworthy is your bank? | Money | The Guardian

MP fears bank's phantom paperwork may be just the tip of an iceberg | Money | The Guardian

Couple stung by £100,000 ‘secret’ loan - Times Online

 

 

Excellent - very pro-active

 

I feel very sorry for the 65 responsible.

 

How come you never took them to Court though? Have you pointed all of this out to the OFT?

 

I would be like a dog with a bone now

[JonCris]

As far as I can see it's as illegal as it can get but trying to get the authorities to act against their mates in the banks is a very real & disgraceful struggle.

 

Also we now know courtesy of Paul that the 'recreated' agreements are NOT true copies, as claimed in the memo, but include terms that were not in force at the time it was entered into. These 'new' terms allow the bank (after judgment) to add contractual compound interest to the loan thereby inflating their balance sheet........... & last but not least & despite what they claim to sue debtors for huge sums of money after the secret account has been allowed to accrue over a number of years

 

This practice means that a debt of a few thousand (say£5K) will mushroom to a sum of 10s of 1,000, in at least 1 case on this forum £100K (DanDebbie mention in the press)& the 1st the debtor will know about this now massive debt is when the final demand for payment arrives out of the blue followed closely by the court summons when you don't pay up because of course you can't & they know it so they will go for possession of your home (pity the bottom has fallen out of the property market init)

 

The reason this came to light is that Paul decided, like everyone here, to reclaim his bank charges & so sent a Subject Access Request. When the bank sent the papers they 'mistakenly' included statement to 2 accounts of which he had no knowledge for amounts that were clearly wrong & it was due to his tenacity & his tenacity alone that this practice was publicly exposed.

 

Since then a number of people have come forward who have been conned in this way & as many don't read these forums it's feared that there will be many others perhaps 100s or even 1,000s who have fallen victim to this alleged [problem] which we understand has been operating for years

Edited January 17, 2009 by JonCris

[JonCris]

Excellent - very pro-active

 

I feel very sorry for the 65 responsible.

 

How come you never took them to Court though? Have you pointed all of this out to the OFT?

 

I would be like a dog with a bone now

 

He has......... repeatedly ...........Get yourself a glass or glasses of vino & read his thread

[BeerFun]

I guess that the banks dont let it get as far as a court incase a preidence is set against them going this? I Hope!!!

[cadencealex]

He has......... repeatedly ...........Get yourself a glass or glasses of vino & read his thread

 

 

I will do

 

Vino sounds good

 

 

Erm... and will read his thread too...

[paulwlton]

I guess that the banks dont let it get as far as a court incase a preidence is set against them going this? I Hope!!!

 

I wouldn't be too sure on that their lawyers use every dirty trick possible, including: failure to submit documents, misleading the court, ambushing the litigant in person with documents they are seeking to rely upon just minutes before an hearing, character assassination, the list goes on, unfortunatley the DJs have fallen for it. Sparkie and D&D have come across simillar tactics.

 

Paul

Edited January 17, 2009 by paulwlton

[paulwlton]

Oh, I have no memory of signing at that document! I remeber signing a document, just not that particular one, the info looks right, ie the repayments etc.

 

You have no memory of signing this particular agreement because you didn't.... the agreement was created at CMS Telford in 2008.

 

I suggest as a matter of urgency you forward CMS Telford a Subject Access Request.

 

How much is outstanding on the loan and when was it sent to CMS?

 

Has a CCJ been obtained yet for the outstanding amount?

 

PW

Edited January 17, 2009 by paulwlton

[BeerFun]

They have agreed to reduce the sum from £23500 to £17000, if I make over payments.

 

No CCJ, but did take me to court seeking due to failure to maintain a Tomlinson agreement ( which we had agreed after a Default), but they failed to turn up and the judge sided with me and said that I only need to pay a minimum monthly sum.

 

Interestingly the court also detailed the sum as £17000!

 

The good thing is that they would have to go in front of the same judge if they wanted to try for a ccj, in which case i would just take the copy of the CCA they sent me, and argue that it was miss sold.

[paulwlton]

They have agreed to reduce the sum from £23500 to £17000, if I make over payments.

 

No CCJ, but did take me to court seeking due to failure to maintain a Tomlinson agreement ( which we had agreed after a Default), but they failed to turn up and the judge sided with me and said that I only need to pay a minimum monthly sum.

 

Interestingly the court also detailed the sum as £17000!

 

The good thing is that they would have to go in front of the same judge if they wanted to try for a ccj, in which case i would just take the copy of the CCA they sent me, and argue that it was miss sold.

 

I can think of stronger aruments than "miss sold"

 

I would send somethink like this.

 

 

SUBJECT ACCESS REQUEST – DATA PROTECTION ACT 1998

 

 

As per my rights under the above Act, please send me details (in a legible format) of ALL data from ALL relevant filing systems held by yourselves that in any way relates to me as the data subject.

 

I expect that this information will include (but is not limited to) the following:

 

Copies of any regulated consumer credit agreement between us

Copies of all statements of any account held by you on me

Copies of any computer or manual notes in relation to any account held on me

Copies of any and all letters sent by you to me

Copies of any and all letters sent by me to you

Copies of any and all written communications to and from any 3rd parties that relate to me

Copies of all telephone call transcripts made in relation to any account held by me

Copies of any record of times/dates of any telephone calls made in respect of any account held by me

 

I also require that you forward to me data relating to any automated internal debt monitoring system used by your organisation which relates to me known as a router account.

 

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee for this information of £10 and understand that you must comply with this request within 40 days of receipt of this letter.

 

 

I look forward to your prompt response.

Edited January 18, 2009 by paulwlton

[shakespeare62]

It is a regulated agreement becuase that is what they have entered into with you. The fact that it exceeds the £25,000 limit makes it unenforceable. It does not change to an unregulated agreement. They are stuck with having issued you with a Consumer regulated loan that doesn't comply.

 

So cool down....there's nowt they can do...................

 

I think sections 2 - 5 of the consumer credit Act 2006 (in force 1st October 2008 ?) removed the 25K financial limit on regulated agreements except for High net earners (i.e. those earning over 150K salary p.a. / assets over £500k).

 

Would it apply for claims being heard after 1st Oct 2008 even if alleged agreement was made before that date ?

 

There is a similar issue with Nat West on the link below where Nat West can't find the original agreement and the judge mistakenly states they dont need original agreement because it's over 25K ..(the particular agreement was under 25K when made anyway)

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/132505-help-needed-re-natest-6.html#post1907390

Edited January 18, 2009 by shakespeare62
edited typos

[shakespeare62]

Here is a link to section 2 "Removal of financial limits" for regulated agreements , CCA 2006 :-

 

Consumer Credit Act 2006 (c. 14)

[Josie8]

I think sections 2 - 5 of the consumer credit Act 2006 (in force 1st October 2008 ?) removed the 25K financial limit on regulated agreements except for High net earners (i.e. those earning over 150K salary p.a. / assets over £500k). Only for loans after 6th April 2007

 

Would it apply for claims being heard after 1st Oct 2008 even if alleged agreement was made before that date ? YES

 

There is a similar issue with Nat West on the link below where Nat West can't find the original agreement and the judge mistakenly states they dont need original agreement because it's over 25K ..(the particular agreement was under 25K when made anyway)

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/132505-help-needed-re-natest-6.html#post1907390

 

 

See above

[Josie8]

Here is a link to section 2 "Removal of financial limits" for regulated agreements , CCA 2006 :-

 

Consumer Credit Act 2006 (c. 14)

 

 

Only for loans after 6th April 2007 re unenforceability

Edited January 19, 2009 by Josie8