Disciplinary next Monday - Help!

[jhsd]

Hello,

 

I need some advice.. I've worked for the same company for about 20 years, with no problems at all, until my new boss came along a year or so ago.. He has given me bad annual reviews and is always finding things I'm not doing right..

 

On the same day I finally decided to complain about him, they found something to use against me in a disciplinary meeting (surprise surprise).

 

I was told I can't discuss the disciplinary with anyone, so thought I'd check if that is correct before I start posting the detail on here..(and potentially ending up in more trouble)?

 

Thank you in advance for your help..

[flyingdoc]

When entering into a disciplinary hearing you are entitled to take a representative in with you who can be a colleague - therefore you are entitled to discuss the issues with them prior to the hearing.

They have no entitlement to tell you who you can discuss your personal business with, however if you wish to ask advice it may be prudent to keep it general as to issues and not mention identifiable details.

[Sidewinder]

Absolutely right. Who you speak to is your concern, not theirs and indeed it is your prerogative to take independant advice.

 

Best to keep company and personal names out of it at this stage though.

[jhsd]

When entering into a disciplinary hearing you are entitled to take a representative in with you who can be a colleague - therefore you are entitled to discuss the issues with them prior to the hearing.

They have no entitlement to tell you who you can discuss your personal business with, however if you wish to ask advice it may be prudent to keep it general as to issues and not mention identifiable details.

 

Thank you for your reply. I have already had one disciplinary meeting before Christmas (how nice is that dragging it out over Christmas, so that Christmas and New Year was spoilt this year for myself and my family ?). Monday is the verdict (I think). So I did take a colleague last time, and will be doing so on Monday.

 

They definitely said to me in the meeting that I wasn't allowed to discuss it with anyone apart from the colleague who accompanied me to the meeting? Is that incorrect then? I do hope so, as I really need some advice on what they could do to me.

[jhsd]

Absolutely right. Who you speak to is your concern, not theirs and indeed it is your prerogative to take independant advice.

 

Best to keep company and personal names out of it at this stage though.

Thank you for your reply too.. I would definitely keep it general, but even if I tell you the basics of what happened, anyone who knew, would know it was my case... that's why I was a bit worried..

[godpikachu]

well, what is it that you have supposedly done wrong?, have you been permitted to defend yourself in anyway, and if so, what have you said?.

[jhsd]

well, what is it that you have supposedly done wrong?, have you been permitted to defend yourself in anyway, and if so, what have you said?.

Ok, the basics are..

We have an instant messaging system at work that is used for general chat as well as work issues (when people are in different locations).

One such chat between myself and a colleague somehow (we don't know how) got saved onto a place where other people could potentially see it.. And it was found. The person who found it didn't like the content as we had been talking about other people in it.. So this then got escalated to higher management who decided the disciplinary route was their only option.

[nevos]

Did you call the boss a banker

[jhsd]

Did you call the boss a banker

not quite but we did discuss the boss. The boss is the person who has been treating me badly, so surely better to do that than tell them outright in the office my opinion of them?

Anyway, any idea what they might do to me (and the other person involved since it was a conversation between two people)?

[godpikachu]

hmm, you see the problem here is that it can, and more than likley has been taken as "misuse of company property".

 

quite a few firms use an internal instant messenger now, and usually they keep a record of ALL conversations, primarilly to make sure their employees arent abusing the facility, but also to prevent bullying or harrassment etc.

 

thing is, have you tried to raise a greivance against the manager in question?, if not, why not?. the way it will be seen is that you have been talking about people behind thier back, over sensitive matters.

as far as his boss is concerned, he is a golden boy, and cant do any wrong, so a complaint about him would be taken seriously.

 

like ive said before, theres a right way and a wrong way to go about things, youve chosen the wrong way in this case.

 

also, while im thinking, has the other person who oyu were having this conversation with been disciplined over this matter at all?, if not, why not?, you have both committed the same offence..

[jhsd]

hmm, you see the problem here is that it can, and more than likley has been taken as "misuse of company property".

 

quite a few firms use an internal instant messenger now, and usually they keep a record of ALL conversations, primarilly to make sure their employees arent abusing the facility, but also to prevent bullying or harrassment etc.

 

thing is, have you tried to raise a greivance against the manager in question?, if not, why not?. the way it will be seen is that you have been talking about people behind thier back, over sensitive matters.

as far as his boss is concerned, he is a golden boy, and cant do any wrong, so a complaint about him would be taken seriously.

 

like ive said before, theres a right way and a wrong way to go about things, youve chosen the wrong way in this case.

 

also, while im thinking, has the other person who oyu were having this conversation with been disciplined over this matter at all?, if not, why not?, you have both committed the same offence..

 

Yes, we're both being disciplined... My main concern is that it was a private conversation, between two people, and was our opinions. The unfortunate thing was that it became public..

 

If they want to discipline every one who chats either on line, or in the office, and discuss either their boss, or other people, then there wouldn't be many people left..

 

And yes, I did finally give in and complain about my boss (I don't like to complain officially, so had been holding back for ages). Strangely enough as soon as I complained about him, this conversation was produced.

[godpikachu]

Yes, we're both being disciplined... My main concern is that it was a private conversation, between two people, and was our opinions. The unfortunate thing was that it became public..

 

theres no such thing as a private conversation at work, especially when using works email or IM system.

stuff like that is best kept informal and spoken only, dont owrry about it, everyone is entitled to wax lyrical about their work and have a moan about their boss etc, but not in writing.

 

 

And yes, I did finally give in and complain about my boss (I don't like to complain officially, so had been holding back for ages). Strangely enough as soon as I complained about him, this conversation was produced.

 

hmm, and has this complaint been passed to your managers superior?, as obviously the person who the complaint is about cannot be trusted to handle it in an unbiased manner.

also, has any outcome been anounced for your complaint, other than your impending revenge disciplinary?, in fact, is your managers superior even aware that you have raised a greivance about their misconduct?.

 

i ask this because about 10 years back i was in a simarlar situation, i raised a complaint about my manager with her manager, and in response my manager quickly sacked me when she found out about it, making up a few bulls**t reasons to amount to gross misconduct, thus keeping her job and having my complaint dismissed.

[jhsd]

hmm, and has this complaint been passed to your managers superior?, as obviously the person who the complaint is about cannot be trusted to handle it in an unbiased manner.

also, has any outcome been anounced for your complaint, other than your impending revenge disciplinary?, in fact, is your managers superior even aware that you have raised a greivance about their misconduct?.

 

i ask this because about 10 years back i was in a simarlar situation, i raised a complaint about my manager with her manager, and in response my manager quickly sacked me when she found out about it, making up a few bulls**t reasons to amount to gross misconduct, thus keeping her job and having my complaint dismissed.

 

The person I complained to about my manager, was their immediate superior. And their superior totally discredited everything I had to say about my manager (one of the reason I was holding back from complaning for so long, I knew that would happen)..

 

And it was their superior that then, straight after I'd complained, produced this saved conversation, as my manager had escalated it to them as their first course of action (rather than my manager dealing with it)..

 

We are now very concerned we will be dismissed..

[godpikachu]

can i just ask what exactly your manager has done to you?, because sometimes what you feel may be "bullying", may just be them running a tight ship.

 

also, so long as you have worked there for more than 12 months, you will be entitled to file for an employment tribunal for unfair dismissal, should the worst happen.

[jhsd]

can i just ask what exactly your manager has done to you?, because sometimes what you feel may be "bullying", may just be them running a tight ship.

 

also, so long as you have worked there for more than 12 months, you will be entitled to file for an employment tribunal for unfair dismissal, should the worst happen.

 

Just treating me differently to other people, picking me up on the most minor things he thinks I do wrong, etc etc.. I always work lots more hours for the company than I am paid for, and am totally dedicated to my job, always try my hardest if not harder, yet it still isn't good enough.. But still, all I did in return was talk about him (just in the wrong place obviously)..

 

And yes, I can appeal against dismissal and go to an employment tribunal. To be honest, I'd rather just be able to get on and do my job.

[Sidewinder]

Not butting in particularly, but does your company actually have a policy about using e mail and IM facilities? You say that IM is used for general chit-chat, but is this permitted or just 'accepted'? Has anybody been warned about this before? If the facility is used for non-work related matters either by policy or by custom and practice then management have no reson to believe that they will not be discussed from time to time. If this was purely internal, then it was unlikely to bring the company into disrepute, and (depending on what was said) the management might be overreacting - do they not think that the same is said verbally, as is the nature of manger/employee relationships at times?

 

You could of course include in mitigation that the attitude of your manager has been causing you a good deal of anxiety but you did not know how to handle it officially as you felt that a grievance would be simply dismissed. Your use of IM to let off steam to a colleague, whilst perhaps unwise was an example of the stress which the relationship has caused you.

 

Absolutely true though that you should ALWAYS believe that a copy of every word written will be seen by management. Very often an unbelievable amount of information is stored and can be retrieved for later use (dependant on a policy being in place to dictate that of course)

[godpikachu]

hmm, sounds like theres a bit of discrimination going off there then, i assume you havent done anything to warrant them being nasty to you?.

 

it might be worth mentioning your extra work and dedication at your disciplinary, and also asking why your complaint wasnt taken seriously.

you do actually have the right to appeal against the decision on your complaint, especially in a case whaere you feel that you are being discriminated against.

[jhsd]

Not butting in particularly, but does your company actually have a policy about using e mail and IM facilities? You say that IM is used for general chit-chat, but is this permitted or just 'accepted'? Has anybody been warned about this before? If the facility is used for non-work related matters either by policy or by custom and practice then management have no reson to believe that they will not be discussed from time to time. If this was purely internal, then it was unlikely to bring the company into disrepute, and (depending on what was said) the management might be overreacting - do they not think that the same is said verbally, as is the nature of manger/employee relationships at times?

 

Absolutely true though that you should ALWAYS believe that a copy of every word written will be seen by management. Very often an unbelievable amount of information is stored and can be retrieved for later use (dependant on a policy being in place to dictate that of course)

 

Please feel free to butt in.. I've found all the answers so far quite worrying, in as much as I don't really want to be sacked for something that the majority of people do...

 

I don't think they have a policy. Obviously we're not allowed to forward personal joke emails around, not allowed to look at porn on the internet, not allowed to bring the company into disrepute as you say etc etc.. Not sure if using IM for general chit chat is definitely allowed.. Not now we all come to think about it. We all assumed it was.. It is however "accepted". Everyone does it.. Well, not quite so many people now, this has scared lots of people. And this is the first time any one has ever been disciplined for what has been said in one of these IMs..

 

I do think management are over reacting. We said nothing that we wouldn't have said out loud had we been in the same location. Obviously we'd have said it discreetly..

 

I have no problems being disciplined as such, I just don't need to lose my job over something that I don't think can be a sackable offence really, but I think that management may try and do it anyway..

[jhsd]

hmm, sounds like theres a bit of discrimination going off there then, i assume you havent done anything to warrant them being nasty to you?.

 

it might be worth mentioning your extra work and dedication at your disciplinary, and also asking why your complaint wasnt taken seriously.

you do actually have the right to appeal against the decision on your complaint, especially in a case whaere you feel that you are being discriminated against.

 

Yes I agree.. I accompanied a colleague to all their disciplinaries a while back (they got sacked and eventually won unfair dismissal at tribunal) but feel that since then management may have had it in for me..

 

The management know how much work I do.. And also I mentioned it at my first disciplinary as they were concerned about how much time the chat had taken (I estimated ten minutes of my time!)... I will mention it again Monday if I need to.

 

I will ask about my complaint too. I feel now it probably wasn't taken seriously as the IM had already been seen by then, and was imminently about to be produced...

 

I didn't take the complaint any further before all this, as historically, if people raise grievances about managers where I work, they do tend to end up being disciplined back. It is a sad state of affairs.

 

If I do get sacked, I think the company can be named and shamed?

[godpikachu]

Yes I agree.. I accompanied a colleague to all their disciplinaries a while back (they got sacked and eventually won unfair dismissal at tribunal) but feel that since then management may have had it in for me..

 

i dont think this will have anything to do with it, well, not unless the managment are really stupid and ridiculously vindictive, and enjoy paying out compensation.

 

The management know how much work I do.. And also I mentioned it at my first disciplinary as they were concerned about how much time the chat had taken (I estimated ten minutes of my time!)... I will mention it again Monday if I need to.

 

I will ask about my complaint too. I feel now it probably wasn't taken seriously as the IM had already been seen by then, and was imminently about to be produced...

 

yeah, i would ask if they have taken any of that into consideration in their witch hunt..er, sorry, disciplinary proceedure. also, being as youve made a written complaint, it would be nice of them to provide a written response.

 

If I do get sacked, I think the company can be named and shamed?

 

nah, thatd be being as vindictive as them, if they do sack you, then your employment tribunal will be payback enough.

[jhsd]

...think I'd better start crossing my fingers.. and hoping...

[godpikachu]

well, see what happens, you never know.

[jhsd]

Hello again

 

Well, I escaped being dismissed, got a final written warning and various other punishments...

 

And have learnt a very huge lesson...

[flyingdoc]

Good news - glad its over.

[godpikachu]

various other punishments?, such as what?.

your employer does have the right to punish you if you have committed misconduct, but not be punitive in their punishment.

 

also, what is to be done about your complaint?, are they disregarding it?, if so, what reason has been given.

 

you do realise that you have the right to appeal against this decision if it is not agreeable dont you?.