Car failed MOT at one garage, but passed at another! Advice?

[lgch25]

Hi

 

(First apologies if this is a really obvious question, but I will freely admit to being a bit of a 'dumb blonde' when it comes to cars!)

 

I took my Citroen Saxo (03 reg, 43000miles, petrol engine) to be serviced and MOT at the usual Citroen garage/dealership that I have gone to for the last three years. They serviced that car fine but it failed the MOT on three points (one to do with something being loose, then because it was loose it was worn, and apparnetly the brake pads and caliphers needed replacing). They quoted me close to £700 for the repairs but I had doubts that this was all correct as the car is in brilliant condition and had only done 6000miles since the last MOT.

 

So I took it to another garage, again a reputable Citroen dealership. They MOT'd the car and although it failed first time (on something the 1st garage picked up on, that something was loose) rather than replacing the whole unit they replaced the seal around it. The car passed on everything else including brakes and repairs cost me £13 in total!

 

So I'm guessing the first garage were having me on? I mean I showed the 2nd garage the original MOT failure and the guy said anything like that would have been picked up on their MOT. The first garage I went to is a small citoren dealership, the second is a huge company that also deals with Volvo and another make of car.

 

So should I report the first garage to someone? And do I have any grounds to claim back money for the first MOT at the original garage? Advice please!

[Bookworm]

Are you satisfied with your MOT? : Directgov - Motoring

[Conniff]

Welcome lgch. There is no such thing as a 'dumb blonde' when it comes to consumers rights.

 

MoT tests are not an exact science. Ministry inspectors often wait outside testing stations and when a car drives out, they stop it and ask if they have just had an MoT and what the result was. They then have the car back inside the testing station and do their own test to see if the pass or fail was fair.

 

Some testing stations rely on the MoT to bring in customers and are nervous that the ministry inspector will find something has been passed when it should have failed or failed when it 'could' have passed or been marked as an advisory, and can suspend their license.

The MoT manual says "If in doubt, fail it", so they err on the side of caution and fail if there is any doubt.

 

There will be stations that do fail something that is only just on the pass side and no doubt some do so to get work, but the MoT system is very strictly regulated and those later testing stations don't last long.

 

If you are not happy with the first test and believe that it may have been a bit 'over zelous', you can of course complain using the link that Bookworm posted or you could make an appointment to see the service manager to make a complaint to him personally.

I like the direct complaint road as you invariably come away with something that is of benefit to you ie; your next service free or the fitting of an accessory of some sort.

 

Have a think, as the first MoT tester may have been quite justified to have failed those items, so you will gain nothing by a complaint.

Edited December 31, 2008 by Conniff

[raydetinu]

Your local council have testing stations that just do MOT tests and NO repairs ( you need to look these up ) and if you doubt that car has been failed incorrectly you can take it along to these centres for another check and if it passes you can claim your original fail fee back via VOSA.

[the winkler 72]

Hi lgch25 and welcome.

Just to play devils advocate, whats to say the the first guy that tested your car was right about your brake pads and calipers! and the second guy missed it, he's only human, and you could be driving around with defective brakes!!.

Stay clear of main agents find yourself a local independent garage build a relationship with them you dont go to a different hairdresser or doctor everytime do you.

All the best for 09

[patdavies]

he's only human, and you could be driving around with defective brakes!!.

I very much doubt it.

 

If the brakes were defective, then they would not have passed the brake efficiency and balance testing.

 

Worn discs/pads are nothing to do with an MoT test - as long as the brakes achieves the necessary efficiency and balance, and there are no leakages of fluids or damaged hoses/pipes then the car passes.

 

NO dismantling is done (or allowed) for an MoT test, so unless they were leaking or the car failed the brake function tests, I fail to see how faulty calipers could be diagnosed.

[JonCris]

Isn't a failure & the reasons for it supposed to be recorded on a central data base:confused:

[JonCris]

One particular [problem] used by MOT garages is when inspecting underneath they make a hole with a screwdriver in the CV joint rubber gator necessitating an expensive labour charge to repair

[scaniaman]

lgch25, There is currently a racket going on by several Main Agents especially where service contracts are concerned. If you read what items the manufacturer says require attention during a service, this is only about half of what a traditional garage will do. Many smaller garages that get cars in that are just over 3yrs old are experiencing difficulty getting wheels off. The reason is that the wheels have never been taken off since manufacture (higher milage cars will have had new tyres). This means that no work has been done on the VITAL brake components for 3 yrs. This is why poeple are being quoted high prices for first MOT, as brake components have never been serviced. This inadequate servicing allows the manufacturer to go to fleet buyers and quote very low servicing costs over the term of a three year lease. I know this doesn't answer MOT query, but as previously stated all MOT's are subject to "interpretation of wear"by individual testers, especially those that may have recently had their fingers wrapped by the Gestapo.

[patdavies]

but as previously stated all MOT's are subject to "interpretation of wear"by individual testers, especially those that may have recently had their fingers wrapped by the Gestapo.

 

Not for brakes.

 

The pads can be down to metal on metal, but as long as it meets the brake function checks and the pipes don't leak/bulge, that is the end of it from an MoT perspective.

 

The wheels are not removed for an MoT test either.

[riget]

Not for brakes.

 

The pads can be down to metal on metal, but as long as it meets the brake function checks and the pipes don't leak/bulge, that is the end of it from an MoT perspective.

 

The wheels are not removed for an MoT test either.

 

Not true, pads should fail if lower than 1.5mm thick at any point.

 

Conniff said: "If in doubt, fail it", not true, if it's not a clear fail then you must advice only.

[scaniaman]

Sorry Pat, thread not as well written as it might have been therefore misled you. The point about brakes and wheels coming off was in responce to the dames claim about repairs costing nearly £700. Whilst no dismantling of any kind is required for MOT, some cars design allows a view into some brake components, and tester may "Advise" brake repairs. As stated by someone else, if brake efficiency and balance is OK, then pads won't count unless seen to be severly worn. Modern disc brakes are of poor design compared to the good old Volvo 240 with it's fixed caliper system. These swinging caliper systems, evenly though well maintained, can lead to uneven pad wear. Where servicing is irregular, damage is also done to discs hence the high cost of repair.

[flyingdoc]

Sorry Riget I think you are mistaken - They dont even take the wheel off for MOT so how are they going to know that the brake pads are less than 1.5mm thick.

 

They only test braking efficiency and balance, look for corrosion on pipes and leaks and fraying on flexible hoses and signs of leakage on calipers and from drums.

 

the 1.5mm you quote seems to me to be suspiciously close to the 1.6mm minimum depth of tread on a tyre - although I am just speculating here.

[lgch25]

ooh what a debate I have started!

 

Thanks for all the advice, I have written to the original garage asking for their response to what has happened. I don't live near enough to go in and talk to them personally. (The original garage is near where my parents live, and where I was staying when my service and MOT was due).

 

In repsonse to Scaniaman's post about the garage 'advising' brake repairs, they first garage actually failed my car at the MOT on the brakes, they weren't advising repair they were saying it was essential for the car to pass MOT. But the brake test at the second garage the car passed first time.

 

JonCris your comment about the screwdriver hole in the cv rubber gaitor rings alarm bells. The first garage said that this was loose and because it was loose it was also worn (or vice versa). But the second garage said the cv gaitor was loose but that the rubber seal just needed replacing.

 

I had previously been a customer at the first garage for four years, the thing that made me wonder about their credibility was that at my MOT last year they told me my indicator switch needed replacing (to a cost of £120) but that the car *might* pass MOT without replacing it this time. I opted to give it a go and see as I was a student at the time and really didn't have the money for that replacement to go ahead, and fortunately the car passed. So this year I was expecting that obviously the indicator switch would need replacing...but it didn't come up at all! Which was why I started questioning the garage's reliability, and good job I did! Incidentally it did not come up on the second garage's MOT either.

 

Thanks for everyone's advice, I'll let you know what the first garage say about it.

[gwc1000]

Sorry Riget I think you are mistaken - They dont even take the wheel off for MOT so how are they going to know that the brake pads are less than 1.5mm thick.

 

They only test braking efficiency and balance, look for corrosion on pipes and leaks and fraying on flexible hoses and signs of leakage on calipers and from drums.

 

the 1.5mm you quote seems to me to be suspiciously close to the 1.6mm minimum depth of tread on a tyre - although I am just speculating here.

 

Oh, dear. Please check out the MoT Testers Manual:

MOT UK car and vehicle MOT information equipment car servicing parts and spares - brake components

Inspection f, g and h

[flyingdoc]

Once more I stand corrected

 

although I am still not sure how they are supposed to check these things without removing a wheel.

 

pads on some cars may be seen with the wheel on but how are they going to see linings and the condition of the interior of drums.

[gwc1000]

When standing in the pit the pads on most makes can be seen and the thickness checked. Sometimes a small mirror is used. Also the condition of discs are easily checked from underneath. The interior of drums if fitted cannot be checked.

[riget]

35 years mending cars I have learnt something then lol.

We could have a situation here that does crop up ocationaly.

As has been said pads can be hard to see, often only the inner one, even then not very well, to fail I have to be sure the pads are below 1.5mm, if I'm not sure but I can see the pads are worn low, I pass and advice.

(I cannot remove the wheel to get a better look).

Now as in lgch25 case, the car was also serviced, so when I service the car I can remove the wheels, I see that the outer pads are worn below 1.5mm, the inner pad is still good, so I determine the calipers are sticking.

So now when I do the mot, I can't see the outer pad but I know it's a fail, so what do I do?

I have to fail it on the pads, what about the calipers? The car passes the roller brake test but I know the calipers are sticking.

As I am responsible for the mot test I will fail the car even though it could legitly pass at another testing station.

[lgch25]

Riget, thanks that is very helpful and certainly could explain the situation with the brakes. I'll certainly bear that in mind when the garage contact me and will consider taking the car to a garage to get the brakes checked and, if necessary, replaced.

 

Although I was under the impression that with a service and MOT booked together, the car should be serviced to the extent that it would pass the MOT on all serviced points. So surely if on the service they find the brake pads are worn to that extent they should have contacted me anyway to say that they were worn and recommend replacing them before the MOT, as the car could fail on brakes without it? (This has been my previous arrangement with this garage).

 

But thanks very much for that info, I will definitely consider asking for the brakes to be serviced.

[Conniff]

It would be more prudent to MoT the car first and then any failures/advices can be attended to during the service.

That would mean the car would not have to be retested and a pass can be applied.

[gwc1000]

I have to fail it on the pads, what about the calipers? The car passes the roller brake test but I know the calipers are sticking.

 

When the car is jacked up over the pit on the crossmember so that the suspension hangs to check balljoints, all MoT testers at this point spin each wheel to specifically check that no brakes are binding, if any are it's a fail.

[riget]

Yes I know how cars work and how to do a mot, brake calipers can be seized or sticking yet the wheel can still spin free.

[DorsetStrider]

Yes I know how cars work and how to do a mot, brake calipers can be seized or sticking yet the wheel can still spin free.

 

 

As part of the MOT the amount of friction material on the pad is inspected (usually a visible inpection via a small hole in the front of the caliper) to pass the MOT there must be enough friction material on the pad to last 12 months. If the calipers are seized or sticking but the wheel still turns you will notice that one pad is worn considerably more than the other pad on the same disk.

[the winkler 72]

nice one dorset...

[riget]

As part of the MOT the amount of friction material on the pad is inspected (usually a visible inpection via a small hole in the front of the caliper) to pass the MOT there must be enough friction material on the pad to last 12 months. If the calipers are seized or sticking but the wheel still turns you will notice that one pad is worn considerably more than the other pad on the same disk.

 

Why do people keep wanting to tell me my job.

 

You are wrong, to fail the mot a pad has to have 1.5mm or less friction material left, it doesn't matter if it lasts 12 months or 12 minutes.

I've already said about one pad wearing more than another, and calipers sticking.