why you shouldnt use section 77/78 CCA 1974 if you want the signed agreement

[paulwlton]

IMO a document headed application form which was signed by the debtor is pre-contractual. However, if the application form was part of a package which included terms and conditions including prescribed terms then the pack would be looked upon as the whole document.

[bustthematrix]

There is so much negativity in your post Basa.... I have had similar documents sent to me over the years and all have been challenged. None have gone to court and neither have any belonging to those I've assisted on these forums. CCA law is quite clear on what is enforceable and what is not, as said earlier.

 

I do see where you're coming from but it's fear talking. Your cup truly is half empty Basa.... and that's a shame

We can, and should all learn from each others experiences - this should go without saying. We also certainly need to be aware of the games and tricks the creditors get up to as we may find ourselves needing to counter them at some point.

 

However, as the old saying goes that "attack is the best form of defence", so also consumers must know that it is the law that is on their side and not rely on the weakness or perverseness of judges. For me, P1 speaks very soundly on this matter.

 

I also think people need to be very wary of becoming 'experts' in the tactics of the other side to the detriment of being polished in their own very strong arguments. That will always be your best defence and if used correctly, will usually keep you out of court all together.

[basa48]

So you were the Claimant. There's a huge difference between being a Claimant and being a defendant Basa.... As a Claimant, Carey becomes very relevant because the burden of proof becomes yours and not the creditors. Did someone advise you to go ahead with your claim or was it your decision alone? I'm so sorry things haven't worked out for you with this... it shouldn't be a double-edged sword but unfortunately, it is. As Claimant, your fight is a lot harder.

 

Sorry but there is nothing sinister on behalf of the creditor in all this. They have only put forward what anyone would. No real evidence or argument has been exchanged yet. My truck is with the court for allowing such a lame defence to win a set aside. But to be fair the judge did say he just wanted everyone to be heard even though he expressed surprise that the creditor thought he had a case! It was my decision to take this to court and I will win. We are at the CMC later this month. I look upon all this as good experience of court procedures.

[basa48]

IMO a document headed application form which was signed by the debtor is pre-contractual. However, if the application form was part of a package which included terms and conditions including prescribed terms then the pack would be looked upon as the whole document.

 

Damn !! Why can't I be that succinct?!!!

[basa48]

......... consumers must know that it is the law that is on their side...............

 

CCA 1974 may very well have been written for the protection of debtors, but today its interpretation by the courts gives me cause to think that they may not have the same agenda.

[diddydicky]

is it not time to stopped debating this issue and instead pool our resources and formulate a standard defence to carey for all to use against the creditors/dca's

 

perhaps priority could start us off with a draft and we could discuss and knoick it about until we have a pro forma defence to which all caggers could benefit

[tedney]

Formulate a standard defence to carey for all to use against the creditors/dca's

 

Brilliant Idea, quite agree, although I have little to no expertise in this area!

[trevor33]

I agree. I was getting brain ache from trying to make sense of it all.

[PriorityOne]

is it not time to stopped debating this issue and instead pool our resources and formulate a standard defence to carey for all to use against the creditors/dca's

 

perhaps priority could start us off with a draft and we could discuss and knoick it about until we have a pro forma defence to which all caggers could benefit

 

DD... I don't think its necessary for CCA 1974 because the law is very clear on what's enforceable and what isn't and it all depends on the POC from the other side. CCA 2006 is a little trickier.... but it still depends on the POC from the other side. A good Defence needs to deal with the points raised in the POC for any chance of success.

[basa48]

is it not time to stopped debating this issue and instead pool our resources and formulate a standard defence to carey for all to use against the creditors/dca's

 

I already have worked on this:

 

Using ‘reconstituted’ agreements for s61

 

The claimant in his statement refers to standard procedures and expresses his belief that a copy of a further document comprising terms and conditions would have been provided to the Defendant at the time of signing and that there was a reference to the Conditions in the application so that presumably it is said that those Conditions were incorporated into the credit agreement.

 

The claimant cites a recent ‘test case’ [Carey v HSBC: [2009] EWHC 3417 (QB)] to persuade the use of ‘reconstituted’ credit agreements as proof of validity of agreements pursuant to the Act.

 

It will be the defendants assertion that such reliance is misplaced in that the judgment given was in respect of compliance with s78 of the Act only, to wit: ‘Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement’ and not for compliance with s61 ‘Signing of Agreements’.

 

In the defendants opinion it is vital that this issue is not relied on in error and argues as follows:

 

1. HHJ Waksman in the High Court clarified the purpose of documentary evidence pursuant to s78 with reference to so called ‘reconstituted’ copies of agreements in Carey v HSBC (supra) where he said:

 

[1]. This judgment deals with two matters concerning requests for copies of credit card agreements pursuant to section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (“the Act”) and the consequences of non-compliance with that provision.

 

[2]. The purpose of this judgment is to give general guidance, in the context of the cases before me, in the hope that this will narrow or eliminate the issues arising in the hundreds of other similar claims issued in County Courts around the country, many of which have been stayed pending the outcome here.

 

[43]. The issue here is this:

 

(1) When providing a copy of an executed agreement in response to a request under s78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974:

 

(a) Must a creditor

(i) provide a photocopy (or other form of complete copy) of the original agreement that was signed by the debtor or at least provide a copy which is derived directly from the original agreement or complete copy thereof, or

(ii) can a creditor provide a document which is a reconstitution of the original agreement which may be from sources other than the actual signed agreement itself?

(b) Must a creditor provide a document which would comply (if signed) with the requirements of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 as to form, as at the date the agreement was made in order to comply with s78?

 

2. Judge Waksman then defines the different ‘purposes’ in relation to copy documents supplied under s78, that is: ‘the Current Information Purpose’ as distinct from ‘the Proof Purpose’.

 

[44]. It is common ground that the purpose of s78 is (at least) to provide the debtor with information as to the terms of the agreement with the creditor, as well as a present statement of his account and future obligations insofar as they are known. Beyond that common ground, however, the parties have adopted very different positions. The Claimants (debtors) say that the information is both as to the present and the original position under the agreement, and the reason for having the information about the original agreement is so that the debtor may be satisfied that he did indeed enter the agreement by signing a document which was a properly executed agreement (“the Proof Purpose”). On the other hand, the Defendants (creditors) say that it is a question only of providing current information, that is, information about the current terms of the agreement along with current financial details (“the Current Information Purpose”).

 

3. He then confirms he considers the s78 document as “the Current Information Purpose” but not “the Proof Purpose” by saying:

 

[53] (3) Once it is accepted that provision of a photocopy to the debtor is not required and that the signature may be omitted, it is not clear why the purpose is not simply information as to what the agreement contained as opposed to proof of its making;

 

(8 ) Moreover, the Proof Purpose contention requires that the creditor retain not only the front of the application form – where the signature would be – but also the reverse, assuming that not all the terms were on the front and the reverse was not simply blank. It would not be enough for the creditor to produce a copy of what it said were the prevailing terms at the time for that card. Mr Uff said that this additional burden might be avoided if the front of the form had some sort of code on it, perhaps at the bottom, to indicate the precise set of terms which would apply and which could in turn be ascertained by reference to that code. But absent that both sides would be needed;

 

(9) (narrative omitted for clarity) ….. In Light the original executed agreement had been lost. So the bank could not provide the source for the copy as the Proof Purpose required…. (narrative omitted for clarity)…..But if that were right it undermines the Proof Purpose advanced which depends on the creditor at least seeing for itself the executed agreement at the time of the request for the copy.

 

(11). It is said that if the debtor cannot have a copy in the sense required (for the most part) by Mr Uff and Mrs Thompson then he is at a disadvantage should he wish to challenge whether he made a properly executed agreement at all. I do not agree. First, this point only has real force if the Proof Purpose underlays s78 and I do not think that it does. Second, it assumes that there is no obligation on the debtor to make out at least some sort of positive case as to improper (or non-) execution of the original agreement. If he does and for example asserts positively that although he has been using a credit card agreement for years he never actually signed an agreement, or one that complied with s61, the creditor may well have to try and find the original in order to deal with that allegation. (I deal further with the absence of such positive allegations in relation to s61 when I consider below the Applications.) But that tells one nothing about the scope of s78;

 

(13) I have already adverted to the overarching purpose of the Act being consumer protection within the ambit of a new and consistent framework which has benefits for lenders, too. But that does not impel a conclusion that the purpose of s78 must be the Proof Purpose.

 

(14) Mrs Thompson submitted that the approach she advocated with Mr Uff was not merely dependent on the Proof Purpose but also followed from the language of s78. But I do not accept that the language here impels that result and all the factors already mentioned point away from it.

 

[54]. Accordingly, the copy need not be as contended for by Mr Uff and Mrs Thompson and instead, a creditor can satisfy its duty under s78 by providing a reconstituted version of the executed agreement which may be from sources other than the actual signed agreement itself.

 

[62]. Mr Uff in particular contended that this was not s78 compliant because the name and the address did not come from the executed agreement. He said that the copy had to be of that document which on its face tied itself to the debtor. Only in that way could the debtor be assured that agreement was indeed to be attributed to him because the name and address on it was reproduced directly on to the copy. But this argument depends on the correctness of the Proof Purpose being the driver behind s78 and the Copies Regulations, which I have rejected. On the other hand, it is not as if the provision by the creditor of the name and address from its records is not of some value to the debtor. It at least indicates that the creditor has a record of the fact of this person at an identified address making an agreement at some point in the past.

 

[63]. The question is “Must a creditor provide a document which would comply (if signed) with the requirements of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 as to form, as at the date the agreement was made?” and the answer to be given is “No”.

 

[105]. I see no difficulty in saying that the framers of the Act saw it as important in the interests of debtors that they should able to obtain a copy of the agreement they made for whatever purpose they want, it being assumed that they ask for a copy because they have mislaid their own, and then, if in fact the agreement has been varied, they are given the up to date terms as well. This is what Options A and B are designed to do, more or less elegantly. The fact that the purpose of s78 falls short of the supply of proof or the best evidence possible of the executed agreement does not undermine this.

 

[199]. ………(narrative omitted for clarity)……. I have already held that the purpose of the s78 copy is not to provide proof. ……..(narrative omitted for clarity)…..

 

4. It is clear that Judge Waksman concluded that ‘reconstituted documents’, whilst they may be acceptable in response to s78 requests for ‘Current Information’ purposes only, they cannot be considered ‘Proof Purpose’ of an executed agreement, i.e. ‘reconstituted’ agreements are not for the purpose of providing proof of compliance with s61.

 

5. Judge Waksman then describes what documents he determined do constitute an executed agreement for the purposes of s61 with reference to ‘Assumed Facts’:

 

[171]. This arises solely in connection with s61(1)(a) and the requirement thereunder that the document signed by the debtor “contains” all the Prescribed Terms. The question is as follows:

“Does the document signed by the debtor contain the Prescribed Terms for the purposes of section 61 and/or section 127(3) if:

 

(a) they are on a sheet which is referred to on the piece of paper that was signed by the debtor; or

(b) where that sheet is attached to the piece of paper signed by the debtor; or

© where that sheet is separate from but was supplied with the piece of paper signed by the debtor?”

 

[173]. The parties in Carey have helpfully agreed the following principles. The fourth one was added by Mr Uff, with their agreement. No other party takes issue with them. The OFT has formulated the matter in a slightly different way but accepts these principles are close to its position.

 

(a) It is not sufficient for the piece of paper signed by the debtor merely to cross-refer to the Prescribed Terms without a copy of those terms being supplied to the debtor at the point of signature;

(b) A document need not be a single piece of paper;

© Whether several pieces of paper constitute one document is a question of substance not form. In particular a physical connection between several pieces of paper is not necessary in order for them to constitute one document;

(d) Additionally, a physical connection (or one or more physical connections) between several pieces of paper does not necessarily constitute them as one document;

(e) Accordingly, where the debtor’s signature and the Prescribed Terms appear on separate pieces of paper, the questions of whether those pieces of paper together constitute one document is a question of substance and not form.

 

 

[174]. As a matter of law, those principles appear to me to be correct, in the context of s61.

 

 

 

Judge Waksman then identifies the documents supplied as The Assumed Facts.

 

[177]. According to HSBC, p197 is a reconstituted application form. I referred to it above in the context of Issues 1 and 2. The assumed facts here are as follows:

 

(1) Ms Carey signed a form which contained, among other things, the entries at p197 including the specific reference to being bound by “the terms and conditions attached”; that form did not itself have the Prescribed Terms stated on the front or the reverse;

 

(2) The form (referred to as “a signature page” in the WS from Alan Burden dated 3 December 2009) would have been produced with Ms Carey’s details already on, for her to sign once her application, already made, had been approved;

 

(3) At the same time as the form was produced electronically, the relevant terms and conditions (including the Prescribed Terms and information) would have been printed off and physically attached to the form by a staple;

 

(4) Ms Carey would then have been invited to read the agreement, consisting of the signature page and attached terms and would then have signed and dated the signature page. It would then have been countersigned by the bank;

 

(5) The relevant terms and conditions would not have been precisely in the form of pages 198-201 simply because that is a s63 copy with the different cancellation clause. But they would have been the full terms with the Prescribed Terms included either in landscape form (as shown at pp198-201) or portrait form.

 

6. As can be seen from the above narration, the document supplied as the reconstituted application form did not have the prescribed terms on the front or reverse.

 

7. A further document ‘a signature page’ forming the agreement was then produced with Ms Carey’s details already on, for her to sign and this form was in addition to an ‘application, already made’.

 

8. Neither of these situations is present in this case in that the application form refers to ‘general conditions’ supplied separately and no other document other than the application form was supplied to the defendant for signing.

 

9. Subsequently no other document was signed by the defendant nor has one been produced by the claimant as an executed agreement.

 

10. These observations as to ‘substance and not form’ as contended for by Judge Waksman are that the signature page and its terms and conditions do not have to take the ‘form’ of one piece of paper (the so called ‘four corners rule’), but that in ‘substance’ should be one homogenous document. I would refine that further by observing that a document that is signed as an agreement that refers to terms on the ‘reverse’ or ‘attached’ or display contiguous page numbering or in any way implying the terms were unarguably present at the point of signature would be regarded as one document containing those terms. On the other hand, a signed document that states the terms were ‘supplied separately’ or contains phrases such as ‘I have received…’ and ‘I have read …’ would suggest the terms were in another document separate from and not contained within the signed document at the time of signing.

 

 

11. Also Reg. 7 of Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 makes further provision in respect of copies where the agreement has been varied under the heading “Copies of agreements or security instruments where the agreement or security instrument has been varied”“

 

Where an agreement has been varied in accordance with section 82(1) of the Act, every copy of the executed agreement given to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act other than section 85(1) shall include either—

 

(i). an easily legible copy of the latest notice of variation given in accordance with section 82(1) of the Act relating to each discrete term of the agreement which has been varied; or

 

(ii). an easily legible statement of the terms of the agreement as varied in accordance with section 82(1) of the Act”.

 

 

12. Judge Waksman discusses this as Issue 2:

 

[69]. “If an agreement has been varied by the creditor under a unilateral power of variation, is a copy of the executed agreement as varied, a sufficient copy for the purposes of section 78(1), or must the creditor provide a copy of the original agreement as well?”

 

and after lengthy argument, he concludes:

 

[108]. Accordingly, I conclude that Reg. 7 requires a copy of the executed agreement in its original form as well as a statement of the terms as they are at the time of the request.

 

 

13. Clearly the creditor has varied this agreement in that credit limits and interest rates have been varied and therefore a copy of the executed agreement in its original form is required to comply with the Regulation. The reconstituted documents provided are not copies of the executed agreement in their original form, and it follows the original document cannot be shown to contain the prescribed terms and to have been properly executed.

 

14. Whilst there would appear to be a factual issue to be determined in this case and one in which we invite the Court to believe the defendant, it is submitted, irrespective of the submissions made by the Claimant, that as a matter of objective reality the Credit Agreement failed to comply with section 61(1)(a) of the 1974 Act since it does not contain the prescribed terms.

 

15. It is respectfully submitted that the court should adopt the same reasoning as Judge Waksman in his High Court ruling in determining this issue, that is that documents supplied as proof of an executed agreement must be copies of the original documents in their original form as signed by the debtor, irrespective of whether or not it finds that the creditor has supplied reconstituted or copy documents it may claim were supplied at the time of signing.

........................................................................................

 

Comments welcome.

Edited November 30, 2010 by basa48

[PriorityOne]

It's a good start Basa but IMO, it needs to be a lot tighter..... there are also other issues that could be questioned in response to the POC; DN, any variations to the alleged Agreement, etc.

 

If, for example, all that's produced is a reconstruction, then what is there to compare it with; since no original can be produced? What evidence is there to ascertain that the document supplied is indeed a true reconstruction since the truth is no longer available? How can the Defendant be certain of any variations made during the course of the Agreement and/or check that the alleged Agreement was terminated in the correct way when there is no longer any true alleged Agreement to check these things against?

 

That sort of thing perhaps worded in a clearer way ..... as I'm so tired tonight..... .... but linked to Waksman, if the POC makes it appropriate to do so.

 

So hope it snows in my area tonight, then I won't have to go into work tomorrow... !!

[basa48]

It's a good start Basa but IMO, it needs to be a lot tighter..... there are also other issues that could be questioned in response to the POC; DN, any variations to the alleged Agreement, etc.

 

If, for example, all that's produced is a reconstruction, then what is there to compare it with; since no original can be produced? What evidence is there to ascertain that the document supplied is indeed a true reconstruction since the truth is no longer available? How can the Defendant be certain of any variations made during the course of the Agreement and/or check that the alleged Agreement was terminated in the correct way when there is no longer any true alleged Agreement to check these things against?

 

That sort of thing perhaps worded in a clearer way ..... as I'm so tired tonight..... .... but linked to Waksman, if the POC makes it appropriate to do so.

 

So hope it snows in my area tonight, then I won't have to go into work tomorrow... !!

 

I'm whacked too, and it is snowing here! Yea!!

 

DN don't really figure in Waksman and as far as variations are concerned a variation in credit limit or interest rate come within s82. How many accounts have not been varied ???

 

As far as recons are concerned, that is what Carey is all about. If a creditor cannot produce an original agreement then he can create one 'from sources other than the original agreement'. But remember these reconstructions are only good for s78 and who uses that for unenforceability??

 

There can be no evidence a recon is true and accurate, that is why it is imperative a debtor insists he never saw a T&Cs with prescribed terms and definitely never signed one!!

 

I don't follow your concerns about termination? If an agreement is terminated, end of. If it was done following a valid DN what is the problem? Or are you referring to 'termination for convenience' clauses. If the account is in default then s87 takes precedence over such clauses.

[means2anend]

There is so much negativity in your post Basa.... I have had similar documents sent to me over the years and all have been challenged. None have gone to court and neither have any belonging to those I've assisted on these forums. CCA law is quite clear on what is enforceable and what is not, as said earlier.

 

I do see where you're coming from but it's fear talking. Your cup truly is half empty Basa.... and that's a shame.

 

No disrespect ~Basa because I enjoy reading your posts...BUT P1 what can I say....words used without causing hurt...well done...and I wholeheartedly agree with what you have said in the last couple of posts...as well as others(posts that is)

 

rgds

 

m2ae

[diddydicky]

excellent Basa- there is a core argument - whatever the POC's state that i was looking for-- i will have a read through and add my comments (but sick at moment|)

[basa48]

No disrespect ~Basa because I enjoy reading your posts...BUT P1 what can I say....words used without causing hurt...well done...and I wholeheartedly agree with what you have said in the last couple of posts...as well as others(posts that is)

 

rgds

 

m2ae

 

No disrespect taken. I am actually a 'glass half full' person. But the worst mistake anyone can make is to underestimate your enemy. I look at the worst possible scenario and prepare for that.

 

I do not want to see anyone fail because they didn't see a possible pitfall.

[oilyrag]

Well done guys, at last we are getting to the real core of what in my humble opinion is the real core of Carey et al. Plus a thanks to basa for taking the time to put together a very real basis for us all to build on.

 

regards

oilyrag

[PriorityOne]

I'm whacked too, and it is snowing here! Yea!!

 

DN don't really figure in Waksman No I bet they don't.... 8)....and as far as variations are concerned a variation in credit limit or interest rate come within s82. How many accounts have not been varied ??? The burden of proof is upon the Claimant to resolve any anomalies....

 

As far as recons are concerned, that is what Carey is all about. If a creditor cannot produce an original agreement then he can create one 'from sources other than the original agreement'. But remember these reconstructions are only good for s78 and who uses that for unenforceability?? Well. some have slipped through on the back of a reconstruction but IMO, the Defence was far too weak.

 

There can be no evidence a recon is true and accurate, that is why it is imperative a debtor insists he never saw a T&Cs with prescribed terms and definitely never signed one!! Of course and as I've said many times, in what other area of law would this farce be accepted as factual evidence?

 

I don't follow your concerns about termination? If an agreement is terminated, end of. If it was done following a valid DN what is the problem? But is it valid? Can the creditor/DCA even locate it? Or are you referring to 'termination for convenience' clauses. If the account is in default then s87 takes precedence over such clauses.

 

The burden of proof needs to be heavy.... and closely linked to the POC. Basically, shoot down as much as possible in the POC because until you've had sight of the docs. alleged to be in their possession (or not), you're not in a position to confirm or deny anything, are you?

[basa48]

.... ....and as far as variations are concerned a variation in credit limit or interest rate come within s82. How many accounts have not been varied ???

 

The burden of proof is upon the Claimant to resolve any anomalies....

 

Not sure what you mean?

 

As far as recons are concerned, that is what Carey is all about. If a creditor cannot produce an original agreement then he can create one 'from sources other than the original agreement'. But remember these reconstructions are only good for s78 and who uses that for unenforceability??

 

Well. some have slipped through on the back of a reconstruction but IMO, the Defence was far too weak.

 

Or the judge was a dummy!

 

There can be no evidence a recon is true and accurate, that is why it is imperative a debtor insists he never saw a T&Cs with prescribed terms and definitely never signed one!!

 

Of course and as I've said many times, in what other area of law would this farce be accepted as factual evidence?

 

Well Waksman has made it so, so we have to live with it.

 

I don't follow your concerns about termination? If an agreement is terminated, end of. If it was done following a valid DN what is the problem?

 

But is it valid? Can the creditor/DCA even locate it?

 

Again I don't see where you are coming from. DNs and termination are a whole other field of arguments. I'm just arguing Waksman, s78/s61 and recons atm

 

Or are you referring to 'termination for convenience' clauses. If the account is in default then s87 takes precedence over such clauses.

 

The burden of proof needs to be heavy.... and closely linked to the POC. Basically, shoot down as much as possible in the POC because until you've had sight of the docs. alleged to be in their possession (or not), you're not in a position to confirm or deny anything, are you?

 

Well now this is the debtors current dilemma! If the debtor receives nothing but a recon or nothing at all how IS he to know if his REAL agreement was enforceable or not? Do you assume there is no enforceable agreement and hope a judge will agree an original is necessary or hope that the OC/DCA doesn't produce an original at disclosure and blow you out of the water.

 

(I'm lucky I have what the OCs have said are copies of the originals – albeit not enforceable as they stand).

[PriorityOne]

 

Well now this is the debtors current dilemma! If the debtor receives nothing but a recon or nothing at all how IS he to know if his REAL agreement was enforceable or not? Do you assume there is no enforceable agreement and hope a judge will agree an original is necessary or hope that the OC/DCA doesn't produce an original at disclosure and blow you out of the water.

 

(I'm lucky I have what the OCs have said are copies of the originals – albeit not enforceable as they stand).

 

He/she doesn't.... and that's what makes it a farce. If the correct CPR requests are made (and subsequently ignored) though, then the creditor/DCA cannot blow anyone out of the water but himself by deliberately frustating proceedings.

 

What I meant in earlier posts is, that the Claimant has to prove his case in circumstances where the creditor/DCA issues proceedings against a consumer. DNs/termination may be a different argument but one that shouldn't be ignored; consumers need to cover all the bases and if the creditor/DCA is trying to run with Waksman under CCA 2006, then the consumer needs to throw up as many potential anomalies as possible, IMO.

 

Your situation is entirely different Basa because you are the Claimant and not the creditor.... so I'm not sure that what I'm saying will make sense from your own perspective as you're trying to prove a case and not defend one.

 

No work today.... snow day!!

[basa48]

Your situation is entirely different Basa because you are the Claimant and not the creditor.... so I'm not sure that what I'm saying will make sense from your own perspective as you're trying to prove a case and not defend one.

 

No work today.... snow day!!

 

I am claimant in only one of 4 disputed accounts. It is a very small account and is really only a test case for me. I may not win in terms of a cash award but I can't lose the enforceability bit. Two others are typical application form scenarios (one with an invalid DN and termination) and the last an unlawful repudiation.

 

I'd always be concerned if I were disputing agreements subject to CCA 2006. There is no real protection from a duff judge.

 

Snowed but had to work anyways - ya boo sucks!!!!

[PriorityOne]

I am claimant in only one of 4 disputed accounts. It is a very small account and is really only a test case for me. I may not win in terms of a cash award but I can't lose the enforceability bit. Two others are typical application form scenarios (one with an invalid DN and termination) and the last an unlawful repudiation.

 

I'd always be concerned if I were disputing agreements subject to CCA 2006. There is no real protection from a duff judge.

 

Snowed but had to work anyways - ya boo sucks!!!!

 

I hope that you'll keep us all updated as things progress in your battles Basa....

 

Going to work in this weather is a nightmare for people..... there are so many accidents out there, so be careful....

[basa48]

I hope that you'll keep us all updated as things progress in your battles Basa....

 

Be assured I certainly will.

 

I have been at this 22 months now with 15 different DCAs/Solicitors !!!

 

Going to work in this weather is a nightmare for people..... there are so many accidents out there, so be careful....

 

I go to work on the bus.

[oilyrag]

Best of Luck with all this basa. We are in a similar situation of similar magnitude but going a little longer than yours now.

 

regards

oilyrag

[basa48]

Best of Luck with all this basa. We are in a similar situation of similar magnitude but going a little longer than yours now.

 

regards

oilyrag

 

Thanks 'oilyrag but you may have misunderstood. The 22 months / 15 DCAs refers to 3 other accounts I am not pursuing.

 

The account I am pursuing has been dragging on in and out of court since June 09. There is no DCA involved. There is a CMC this month.

[means2anend]

I have thoroughly enjoyed the last 2 pages Basa ,P1 and Oily.....but the fact remains...Carey states that A recon must be 'honest true and accurate' AND created in GOOD FAITH....how on earth then can we prove that the particular recon was done in BAD FAITH...This is where battles are won and lost LONG BEFORE proceedings are ISSUED as is mentioned somewhere in the previous posts....AND so correspondence with the DCA/s and or OC/s reminding them of their DUTY under CPUTR 2008 regs 5, 6 and 7 is SO VITAL as it is at this point that will determine whether they will run or continue...Hopefully there will be NEITHER debtor and claimant

 

rgds

 

m2ae

 

p.s Basa I have cut and pasted your condensed and concentrated narrative of Carey onto a blank word document and shall be reading it thoroughly...thanks