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    • Piers aint that bad (recently amended opinion)  
    • It looks as if you have been completely ripped off. I'm sorry about that but frankly I don't think there is much you can do – and believe me, it is not often that I say that on this forum. I think it's fairly clear that there has been a deception here and although it won't help massively, I would suggest that you report the crime to the police. They will try to say that is a civil matter and you will have to stick to your guns and say that no there's been a deception, that this man is selling cars in an unroadworthy condition and probably he is committing tax fraud offences as well. I'm afraid that there doesn't even evidence that you have the correct name. It seems entirely possible that such a person simply doesn't exist. I don't see any point in beginning a legal action because if you don't even have the correct name for this dealer, then a judgement recorded against his credit file will make absently no difference at all and you will simply incur the costs of bringing the claim. I doubt very much whether he would bother to respond to a claim or to put in a defence. If he did put in a defence then if you wanted to move on to the hearing stage you would have to pay another fee and this would simply put you even more out of pocket – probably to the tune of about £250 or so – and as it seems very unlikely that you could ever enforce the judgement, you would never get any of this money back. I'm sure you feel very bad and very upset. The only other thing you should do is start going around the review sites and putting up negative reviews about this person and his business – and business names. At least it will put other people on guard and you never know, you might stumble across other people who know more about him and actually know who he is. If you do decide to inform the police then you should tell the police that he is trading under a false name. In terms of your car, I'm afraid that the only way I can suggest to cut your losses is to have the work done. It means that you are £1000 down on the deal – but at least you will have a driving car. However, before doing that I would have the car thoroughly checked over to make sure that there aren't any other defects which are about to materialise which might eventually make the car is simply not economical to repair. You said that there was an MOT certificate in the glove box. Is it a recent MOT certificate? Are you able to speak with the previous owner at all?  Cagger @Daniel Hanson who has also bought a vehicle from the same person may be able to help you in this respect. It seems that he has been lucky enough not to have any problem so far with the car that he bought. I think at the very least, the lessons to be drawn from this are: Don't purchase a used car – or any car from a dealer who is far away from you make sure you check the car yourself make sure that the dealer is well established and do some research on forums and review sites for negative reviews and positive reviews. However, be suspicious of positive reviews. Don't pay cash/bank transfer. You lose all control of your money. Insist on paying by credit card or debit card and if the dealer won't accept it then walk away. Ignore warranties. They are meaningless and they are simply a red herring intended to distract you from your statutory rights. However, as you are discovering, even your statutory rights are meaningless if you are unable to identify the dealer and if you are able to identify any assets belonging to the dealer against which you could enforce judgement. Please do let us know how this develops and if you are able to track anybody down. As I say, I think you should certainly inform the police – but it will be a hard job to get them to take notice because they will simply try to say that it's a civil matter and there is no evidence of a crime. You will have to push hard.
    • That is one mean spirited individual, looks like what a Dickensian female Workhouse Beadle would look like.
    • I'll reply more fully  later as I'm about to go out. But meantime who was this person who you allowed to drive your car? How did you know him? Was he insured to drive your car? If you are to defend the matter we need to find out if you have a reasonable chance of success.
    • I think it particularly telling that overweight poopulist Tory **** whos worst experience on missing a meal is missing out on cake, biscuit and tea for elevensese between free breakfast and free lunch, and who voted as a decidedly overweight whole to leave British children hungry, STILL claim that its age and obesity, not their own policies and practices, that have generating the 'world beating' British death rates.   Perhaps they are leading up to claiming that them voting for children to go hungry was part of the health drive to reduce the childrens risk of catching Covid? Wouldn't put it past them.    
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    • I sent in the bailiffs to the BBC. They collected £350. It made me smile.
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    • Hi @BankFodder
      Sorry for only updating you now, but after your guidance with submitting the claim it was pretty straight forward and I didn't want to unnecessarily waste your time. Especially with this guide you wrote here, so many thanks for that
      So I issued the claim on day 15 and they requested more time to respond.
      They took until the last day to respond and denied the claim, unsurprisingly saying my contract was with Packlink and not with them.
       
      I opted for mediation, and it played out very similarly to other people's experiences.
       
      In the first call I outlined my case, and I referred to the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 as the reason to why I do in fact have a contract with them. 
       
      In the second call the mediator came back with an offer of the full amount of the phone and postage £146.93, but not the court costs. I said I was not willing to accept this and the mediator came across as a bit irritated that I would not accept this and said I should be flexible. I insisted that the law was on my side and I was willing to take them to court. The mediator went back to Hermes with what I said.
       
      In the third call the mediator said that they would offer the full amount. However, he said that Hermes still thought that I should have taken the case against Packlink instead, and that they would try to recover the court costs themselves from Packlink.
       
      To be fair to them, if Packlink wasn't based in Spain I would've made the claim against them instead. But since they are overseas and the law lets me take action against Hermes directly, it's the best way of trying to recover the money.
       
      So this is a great win. Thank you so much for your help and all of the resources available on this site. It has helped me so much especially as someone who does not know anything about making money claims.
       
      Many thanks, stay safe and have a good Christmas!
       
       
        • Thanks
    • Hermes and mediation hints. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/428981-hermes-and-mediation-hints/&do=findComment&comment=5080003
      • 1 reply
    • Natwest Bank Transfer Fraud Call HMRC Please help. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/428951-natwest-bank-transfer-fraud-call-hmrc-please-help/&do=findComment&comment=5079786
      • 31 replies

Just Recieved A Signed Capital One Agreement


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As i was saying i think i seriously upset ellie!

Im happy to help with support and my own opinions but as i have no legal qualifications If I offer any thoughts to your problems please take it as from my life experience only and not of any legal standing. Always take further advice from the legal experts in your final action,

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Morning fellow Capone sufferers

 

Well it looks like my coach trip is off (sorry), although they've not refused I received a letter from them this morning along with 'a true copy of my agreement' together with pages of T&C's which are completely different to what they orginally sent me under my cca request - the original t&c's quoted £12 late/over limit fees, these latest one's they've sent quote £20 :?

 

Cap1Sept.jpg

 

 

Agreement

 

Cap12ndagree.jpg

 

Any thoughts ? (apart from the obvious)

 

 

hi all,

i have also had an exact copy of this letter last week, i also have the same T&C's as beach posted (v9), but im my case they are not printed on the reverse, i have 5 sheets of A4, all blank on the reverse. (my thread is here to see them) http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/capital-one/208671-being-harrased-capital-one.html

 

as with you, these terms bear no resemblance to the last lot of T&C's i was sent, and also refere to £20 fee's, where as previous T&C's said £12.

i have heard a couple of people now mention Crapital ones "creative dept" and the sugestion that they are adapting the T&C's to suit. now if this is so, surely this would be a deliberate attempt to mislead.

Edited by citizenB
spelling -last word amended :)
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Seems a bulk mailing of these T&C's have gone out in a deliberate attempt by them to confuse and make us all believe that they have enforceable agreements which as you say is misleading and probably breaks OFT guidelines. I think we should all be complaining to the OFT about their behaviour. If this is a true copy of the agreement and T&C's what was the one sent to me before which they also stated was a true copy? How many true copies which are different are they going to come up with?!

Financial chaos - 6 months unable to work from February 2009 after a major car accident, being paid in Sterling but having to pay bills in Euros with an awful exchange rate, financial turmoil ('THE CRISES') causing my earnings to halve and punitive interest rates from credit card sharks!

Credit Cards

Capital One - £11500 Account terminated, in dispute Last contact 03/10

RBS Mint - £10000 Account terminated, in dispute Last contact 11/10

MBNA - £13000 Ongoing dispute Last contact 12/10

MBNA - £6000 Ongoing dispute Last contact 02/10

M&S - £10000 Terminated twice, in dispute Last contact 07/10

Barclaycard - £3000 Repaying

Lloyds TSB - £3000 Repaying

Bank of Scotland - £9000 Repaying

Loan

MBNA - £20000 Terminated and sold on Last contact 06/10

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Ive received more or less exactly the same. However they sent me an applcation not an agreement. Gues the Photoshop guys are working so hard pulling these paper planes together they are crumbling under the pressure. Since these are final response letters it's off to the oft and trading standards is it? Fraud act anyone?

Keep the faith. EiE.

 

Capstone Mortgage 'Services' - Sub-prime garbage - unlawful behaviour/MULTIPLE consumer abuse, TOTALLY in Defiance of REGULATIONS and the law

 

http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pubs/final/gmac_rfc.pdf

 

CONTACT CIB Here

 

http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/Complaintformcib.Htm

 

Kevin Hughes(Compliance Manager-main) @ 02920 380 633

 

Lee Jenkins(prosecuting Amany Attia) 02920 380 643

 

Mark Youde(accounts compliance) 02920 380 955

 

Charlotte Allan @ 0207 596 6108 investigating all the Lehman lenders

 

Jeremy Pilcher 0207 637 6231

 

NO KAGGA LEFT BEHIND...

 

"We would not seek a battle, as we are; Nor, as we are, we say we will not shun it"

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Artie,

Assuming you've stopped paying them, if they aren't pestering you for the money while you wait I'd personally let sleeping dogs lie, then respond depending on what they eventually do next.

Elsa x

PLEASE NOTE... I AM MOST SORRY BUT I HAVE VERY LIMITED AVAILABILITY AT THE MOMENT DUE TO EXTREME PRESSURE OF WORK - IF YOU REQUIRE URGENT HELP ON YOUR THREAD AND ARE GETTING NO RESPONSE PLEASE HIT THE TRIANGLE FOR SITE TEAM ASSISTANCE. ELSA XXX

 

Please check out my BLOG for the quick guide to debt threats - it has all the info & letter template links you need to get started on your journey of TAKING CONTROL. :roll:

 

All opinions are my own based on research. I am not legally qualified, if in doubt please consult a legal expert.

Hope this has helped or made you smile. Keep your chin up, you're among friends now! Elsa xxx

Please click the *star* of any CAG member who has helped you .

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Doesn't always help when you do get an agreement.

 

How many of us have two pieces of paper purporting to be one document, but that the lovely ellie won't acknowledge whether both pages were copied from both sides of the same one original document? I can't remember how many times I have directly asked 'is this two sides of the same original agreement I signed', only to have the same shi** drivelled back at me about how they have complied. I didn't bleeding well ask if they'd complied, I asked if they were trying to pass off two different unenforceable documents as one enforceable one!!

 

Not that I'm bitter.

Time flies like an arrow...

Fruit flies like a banana.

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Doesn't always help when you do get an agreement.

 

How many of us have two pieces of paper purporting to be one document, but that the lovely ellie won't acknowledge whether both pages were copied from both sides of the same one original document? I can't remember how many times I have directly asked 'is this two sides of the same original agreement I signed', only to have the same shi** drivelled back at me about how they have complied. I didn't bleeding well ask if they'd complied, I asked if they were trying to pass off two different unenforceable documents as one enforceable one!!

 

Not that I'm bitter.

Hi Lexis!

Nice to see you back!:) Yes we keep going round in circles dont we !:D:D

Im happy to help with support and my own opinions but as i have no legal qualifications If I offer any thoughts to your problems please take it as from my life experience only and not of any legal standing. Always take further advice from the legal experts in your final action,

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hi all,

i have also had an exact copy of this letter last week, i also have the same T&C's as beach posted (v9), but im my case they are not printed on the reverse, i have 5 sheets of A4, all blank on the reverse. (my thread is here to see them) http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/capital-one/208671-being-harrased-capital-one.html

 

as with you, these terms bear no resemblance to the last lot of T&C's i was sent, and also refere to £20 fee's, where as previous T&C's said £12.

i have heard a couple of people now mention Crapital ones "creative dept" and the sugestion that they are adapting the T&C's to suit. now if this is so, surely this would be a deliberate attempt to mislead.

They are having a:-

ist2_1269590-giraffe-cartoon.jpg

Edited by Old Cogger
:mad2::-x:jaw::sad:
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Doesn't always help when you do get an agreement.

 

How many of us have two pieces of paper purporting to be one document, but that the lovely ellie won't acknowledge whether both pages were copied from both sides of the same one original document? I can't remember how many times I have directly asked 'is this two sides of the same original agreement I signed', only to have the same shi** drivelled back at me about how they have complied. I didn't bleeding well ask if they'd complied, I asked if they were trying to pass off two different unenforceable documents as one enforceable one!!

 

Not that I'm bitter.

 

 

Doesn!t the so called signature appearing on so called agreements is croping up too often over the years????? a long serving staff member or the latest rubber stamp?????

:mad2::-x:jaw::sad:
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Assuming you've stopped paying them, if they aren't pestering you for the money while you wait I'd personally let sleeping dogs lie, then respond depending on what they eventually do next.

Elsa x

 

I had exactly the same back on 2 accounts with them, stopped paying about a year ago and heard nothing since :eek: What's the bet they're the next lot to go under? Bunch of *******s:cool:

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You have the same with MBNA. Same stamp and signature stretching back many years on MBNA, VIRGIN and Abbey agreements.

 

Poor sod must have worn out so many cycle clips rushing between 3 banks. Bet he or she looks aged.

 

Yup :rolleyes:

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  • 2 weeks later...

hi all, i have read pretty much all this thread from the start.. so i know a little, but still cant find what i do next.

 

me and wife both have Crapital one card, sent CCA letter, got back a lame letter with no signed 'true executed copy' and some reference on how they dont have to supply us a true executed copy under some data protectiion legislation - anyone else had this from them? i sent back the standard reply template from this very site sayignthey breeched the CCA blpah blah and have to respond - i also put in big letters on my letter ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE, all letters sent recorded.

 

thing is, they havent responded to either me or wifeys replies to them?

 

they keep calling her and tryign to hassle her for payment etc, calling her mobile, home phone - i have now started her a log of times/dates of phonecalls etc. she keeps tellign them, the accoutn is in dispute and you need to repsond to my letters but they keep asking "wheres your payment, your account is in arrears etc"

 

they havent been chasing me yet... just a text message askign me to call them (as if)

 

my wifes very concerned, i have got her to read this thread, which she has read part of.

 

i jsut need to know if anyone else has experinced, and recived what we have, what to do next, and how we proceed, as the 2nd letter that we sent says you have 14 days to respond... im not sure the next course of action we take, if any?

 

please help, and thanks in advance

 

Pete

:) sucessfully reclaimed against the following in last 4 yrs (thanks to you all and this site) :-

HSBC x 2 accounts,

CAPITAL ONE c/card x 2 accounts

LLOYDS TSB (loan and account charges)

BLACKHORSE FINANCE (2 x loans)

PPI insurance (3 x loans)

 

Currently Persuing:-

BARCLAYS PARTNER FINANCE - HP

CAPITAL ONE - AGAIN! (CCA/DEFAULT/plus charges!):evil:

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Send them the telephone harassment letter (in the templates library) and that should stop the calls. Don't even speak to them on the phone at all!

 

If you have charges to reclaim, send for a Subject Access Request (also in the library), it'll cost you £10. Then you can see all list of charges if you haven't got statements. Remind them the account is in dispute because they haven't complied with your CCA request. Open your own thread and you will get plenty assistance:)

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Send them the telephone harassment letter (in the templates library) and that should stop the calls. Don't even speak to them on the phone at all!

 

If you have charges to reclaim, send for a Subject Access Request (also in the library), it'll cost you £10. Then you can see all list of charges if you haven't got statements. Remind them the account is in dispute because they haven't complied with your CCA request. Open your own thread and you will get plenty assistance:) But remember to post a linky here so that you get a starting pot of help;)

 

Cap1 are yet another horrible one to deal with as (as is true with all the banks) getting a straight answer from them is as likely as brad pitt walking into my front room (((mmm, brad pit, arghhhhhhh))) ahem, I digress:oops:

 

Anyway, as AA rightly says, keep sending the stop calling letters, and when they phone either ignore the call, or better yet (if you can take having to answer the phone every time) just follow this format...

 

Cap1 - Hello, can we speak to x please?

You - Can I ask who's calling?

C1 - Mr X from Cap1

Y - Thank you. All contact is to be made in writing as has been stated before and will be in my notes. I do not discuss financial matters over the phone, and I'm going to hang up now. Goodbye.

 

Be polite but firm, and don't enter into any other dialogue. You have stated you are going to hang up so it's not like you're doing it out of anger. If you feel you can add it in it's always worth saying you record your calls which should keep them a bit more polite than normal (better yet if you actually do record them!).

 

Keeping a log is exactly what you need to do so that's great, but if you can add a name to the time and date entries then it just helps when you make a complaint, especially if you find the same person is ringing.

 

With regards to what you do next, what did you say you were going to do after 14 days? If it was just an open 'please respond', then I'd be on to trading standards for the harassment, along with the FOS and OFT. If you've threatened something specific then you're best to go along with that.

 

Lexis:)

Time flies like an arrow...

Fruit flies like a banana.

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Hi pdaddy,

 

I'm going through this at the moment with MBNA - bit further along now - waiting for a hearing date. Don't take the calls - they will get nasty & make threats & try to bully you into paying while ignoring anything you ask for - they really are quite rude! I had one particularly obnoxious idiot who kept ringing back when I hung up. I started putting the phone next to the TV so he wouldn't get lonely talking to himself. The calls soon stopped.

 

Make the same request for the 'true certified copy of the agreement' only this time do it under CPR rules assuming they are making threats of further action. None of this will make the slightest difference - they really are a******s. Treat the DCA's the same way & if they threaten to call round send the standard letter revoking permission for them to do so.

 

Keep a log of everything & don't throw envelopes away - especially the one with the default notice when it comes.

 

Once they have ignored the CPR request you have a choice - sit back & wait for them to start legal action or sell the debt on or give up - or instigate your own legal action for disclosure. I didn't do the SAR request until they instructed solicitors then you have all the information - suprise suprise they now cant provide a copy of the agreement due to retrieval problems.

 

I have got to the point where they are going for summary judgement & trying to take the house. I followed Sunflower's route & at this point instructed a solicitor under a CFA agreement. I'm now looking forward to MBNA getting mugged in court. You can do the court bit yourself if you have time & are confident in being able to counter all their arguments & recognise the bulls**t. Just remember the judge is unlikely to help & it is up to you to pick holes in their arguements & defend your own position.

 

I decided that as my house was at stake & the solicitor is free under a CFA agreement (assuming he likes your case) it would be nice for MBNA's solicitors to have a chat with my barrister in court. :D

 

My wife is a lot happier now & the pressure is off.

 

All the best & chin up.

 

BM

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HI all, thnaks for quick replies...

 

heres a copy of the 2nd letter we sent them...

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE!

 

Date: 2nd October 2009

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

 

I am writing to you again, for the 3rd time after this week receiving yet more telephone calls from your organisation, yet you have failed TWICE to respond to both my letters dated 14th august and then again my reply to you on 11th September 2009

BOTH letters have been sent recorded delivery and I have obtained a POD so I know they have been delivered, and safely received by your company. Maybe you didn’t see the big typeset ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE, so for the avoidance of doubt, I have put in bold 26point font for you above. I hope this helps.

It would seem you have not yet absorbed the contents of these letters, and I ask you to act immediately and cease calling me, threatening me with more default charges, (which you cannot legally charge to my account since its been in dispute from 28th august) so I respectfully ask you immediately remove these charges, stop sending me threatening letters and default letters and furnish me with the information I have requested.

You are probably aware, and im sure you are, as I believe you have thousands of similar claims as mine, that yours is a very serious breach, so I would appreciate you attend to this matter with some degree of urgency.

The law clearly states and is set out to protect consumers like myself against these charges, interest, harassment etc when an account is in dispute! (Please see description in BOLD for reference)

So for the avoidance of doubt, I shall, yet again, for the 3rd time clearly set out the reason why my account is in dispute:-

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

 

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on 28th August 2009

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document. In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore, you are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true signed copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before you enter into a default situation.

 

This limit has expired.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 78(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested. You will also be aware of the CPUTR 2008 and the OFT's guidelines on debt collection which state under the title Deceptive and/or unfair methods - Examples of unfair practices are as follows - 2.8

 

(i) - 'Failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is queried or disputed, possibly resulting in debtors being wrongly pursued'

 

(k) - 'Not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonable queried or disputed debt'

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; you must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

 

so how does this look? id prefer not to have to go to court etc, and was hopign to get this debt written off on the grounds of it being un-enforceable, and my understanding of it is, if they cannot legally enforce the debt, they cannot go to the courts - is this right/correct?

also, my wife tells me she has today checked her credit file and cap1 have put it down as late payments - again surely this is illegal whislt in dispute?

any other advice? cheers

p

 

 

:) sucessfully reclaimed against the following in last 4 yrs (thanks to you all and this site) :-

HSBC x 2 accounts,

CAPITAL ONE c/card x 2 accounts

LLOYDS TSB (loan and account charges)

BLACKHORSE FINANCE (2 x loans)

PPI insurance (3 x loans)

 

Currently Persuing:-

BARCLAYS PARTNER FINANCE - HP

CAPITAL ONE - AGAIN! (CCA/DEFAULT/plus charges!):evil:

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also, my wife tells me she has today checked her credit file and cap1 have put it down as late payments - again surely this is illegal whislt in dispute?

 

It's against OFT guidelines and CPUTR, but it's not illegal so they'll go ahead and do it regardless.

 

They are not likely to write it off due to it being unenforceable - although this does happen it's not that common simply because if the banks did it willy nilly they'd lose billions.

 

They have to posture and stamp their feet that they are correct otherwise they have a real problem on their hands, regardless of whether they have a leg to stand on or not.

 

OH has a BOS account that I CCA'd in June last year. They have sent me a copy of an illegible application form with no prescribed terms several times, have admitted it is not enforceable last year, have defaulted and terminated (both incorrectly) twice, and yet will not back down. They have even started saying they don't know why I think it's unenforceable despite me having it in writing that they think this too!!

 

That does make it sound depressing I know, but it's just to show that they really will do whatever the hell they want and you just have to adapt to them. There are plenty of people who have got them written off, but I think you'll find they have likely gone to court to get to that stage.

 

And you are right, with no enforceable agreement they can not (well should not) enforce it in court.

 

Have you SAR'd them? Always worth doing that just to get more evidence in your favour.

Time flies like an arrow...

Fruit flies like a banana.

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