Freedom of information act and NHS staff records

[alexb123]

I have been treated by an NHS Psychologist (he was just qualified). He was highly incompetent and I knew he would not stay in the job long.

 

I was right and he has left the profession to work as lecturer. Also, the leading consultant psychologist (his boss) for his department has left as well as his section manager.

 

I wanted to to enquirer on what grounds these people left and I wondered what my rights are under the freedom of information act. The Information Commissioners Office helpline were not much help, does anyone here have any ideas?

 

Any input here would be much appreciated

[flyingdoc]

IMHO you have no right to enquire into these peoples personal employment records.

[Sali]

Even if you have no right to gain personal information on the employment records of these people, if you think they were incompetent you should write a letter of complaint in the first instant. If you are unhappy with the response, escalate your concerns to the Healthcare Commission. Just because a doctor/nurse/psychologist has a piece of paper saying that they are qualified does not mean they are capable. In this case it sounds as if there are issues with those responsible for recruitment and supervision. If you don't stand up and speak, the next person who is referred to this resource may suffer too. Yes, it's time consuming and sometimes stressful to have to take this action, but I think we all have to take responsibility if we are to improve our failing NHS.

[flyingdoc]

In this case it sounds as if there are issues with those responsible for recruitment and supervision.

I think you are jumping to some hefty conclusions, based on one persons opinion of a single practitioner, especially as this is a newly qualified person who perhaps required more experience.

 

You have absolutely no idea why the other people left the service, it could have been totally coincidental.

 

I agree that if the patient is concerned regarding the treatment she received she has a right to complain and I would initially talk to the PALS service at the hospital and if you dont get a satisfactory response then escalate it as described.

[Sali]

Point taken. However, the original post writer thought the psychologist was incompetent. Whether this was because he was newly qualified and inexperienced or incapable and poorly supervised is immaterial. Without complaining how can the situation be improved for the next person? My own experience (over many years) with the NHS leads me to believe that the majority of patients, their families or carers do not complain and consequently we have nurses and doctors with competenency issues. I'm guessing with your nickname of flyingdoc that you work within the healthcare system. I feel that there is a 'circle the wagons' culture within the NHS and that complaints via PALS are just a waste of time, but it's the first stage. When it comes to making the 'right' choice of improving quality of care for the patients or protecting themselves and their reputation, my local hospital goes for the latter. My guess is that it's not alone. How do we change this?

[flyingdoc]

I have absolutely no problem with people making valid complaints regarding care they have (or have not) received, I have myself assisted people to do just that.

Complaints are vital to ensure that standards of care are maintained and improved in a health service that is profoundly failing those it was created to serve.

I worked in the health service for many years and I agree that PALS are a complete waste of time, but it is the first line of any complaint and therefore you have to start there.

Its interesting you feel that there is a circle the wagons culture as from the other side it felt quite the reverse, in fact I had to strenuously defend a member of my staff (I was a ward manager) regarding a complaint that was completely unfounded, but the PALS service had issued a full apology for, leading the complainant to publish the story in the local press. I was incensed.

There are deep seated problems in the health service - and from a clinical point of view - far too much money spent on "PR and image" and far too little spent on clinical care. And a percentage of the money allocated to clinical care is wasted through stupid segregationalist budgeting along with other practices which I will not go into as I have no desire to be sued for libel.

While I have no love of the "Machine" that is the NHS I still have a great affection for the staff who do a very difficult job for an increasingly demanding and ungrateful population.

Nurses in casualty are more likely to get assaulted than police officers in the course of their duty.

you save someones life and instead of thanking you - you get sued because in the melee of their emergency, somone mislaid their pyjama top!

I have no illusions that there are some staff, who need to be challenged in their behaviour (whatever their role) but also consider that this clinician who is listed in this post may well have been newly qualified, and forced into a situation for which they had neither the training or experience, with inadequate resources or supervision.

Complain Please - get the situation changed, but complain objectively, cite your reasons for complaint, your concerns regarding the specific clinician. If you get nothing more than a soothing letter (standard first response) then take it higher - see NHS complaints procedure : Department of Health - Managing your organisation

dont make it a personal attack on the individual - make it a complaint about the standards of care supplied by the NHS.

[Sali]

With such passion, it's a shame (if) you no longer work for the NHS. I wouldn't worry about libel. Although the Government is trying to crack down on it, we still have freedom of speech in this country and you are entitled to an opinion.

 

My sister trained as a nurse years ago and whilst she still works within the NHS, she no longer works on a ward. However, she has seen patient care at my local hospital as a result of the illness of family members, and she was disillusioned and shocked by what she saw and heard. I know she would agree with your comments on 'PR and image.'

 

I would never encourage people to complain for complaining sake. Still, if the clinician listed in the post had been forced into the position where he was out of his depth, then there are serious management issues. What kind of a culture would it suggest if an individual does not feel able to challenge work practices he does not agree with and/or which may have been forced upon him? Wrongly, it sounds as if it's left to the patients and their families to forge change.

[flyingdoc]

You are correct - I am no longer working for the NHS I got so sick of being held responsible for the failings of a corrupt and incompetent administration.

 

I could write a book - but I wont - its just depressing.

 

It doesnt pay to challenge these practices - things do not change - you just end up either being hounded out or worse.

 

The bottom line is that with one hand the government is making individual practitioners responsible and accountable, while taking all the resources away from them which would enable them to do the job, with the other.

 

Staff in the NHS are like the crew of the titanc, bailing furiously with seives.

 

the ship is sinking and unfortunately most of them will go down with it.

[Sali]

I am really saddened by your response. I think the NHS has been losing the best of its staff for some years now for the reasons you give, which perhaps explains why it's in the state that it is. I have never worked in the NHS but have been in a similar work situation where I've felt that I've been banging my head against a brick wall. I stood, I fought and I failed, but I would do exactly the same again, because I believed it to be the right thing. I know it can be soul-destroying.

It is interesting that you feel that individuals within the NHS are being held accountable and responsible by the government, because that's not been my experience. I have big issues with my local hospital. I raised them once and got my soothing letter. I took it no further and now deeply regret it, because those same issues (and more) remained a year later with catastrophic results for my family.

I know it must be demoralising to feel constantly criticised, but the nurses are in the 'line of fire', whereas the administrators are sitting comfortably out of sight. It is the hospital managers' heads that I would like to see roll. I'm not terribly confident that my complaint will have a positive outcome, but if you see things are wrong, doing nothing at all is just not an option. There's a tiny part of me that still believes.

[alexb123]

I am interested to find this information because whilst previously on the telephone to the head of department he asked if I had telephone before I therefore believe that other complaints may have been lodged against the Psychologist in question.

 

I have made an application under the freedom of information act and I will see what they come back with and update the thread.

 

Many Thanks

[flyingdoc]

Again alex - I would defend to my last breath the right of the individual practitioner his/her right to privacy.

 

They should give you information insofar as it relates directly to you.

 

You also have a right to see your medical records should you require.

 

You should not be able to access information regarding the work. or disciplinary record of a person where the information has no connection with you personally.

[alexb123]

FlyingDoc are you also against feedback on ebay?

 

And would you have applied the same logic to Dr Shipman?

[ErikaPNP]

Feedback on eBay? That is a terrible comparison. Feedback on eBay relates to a transaction between two parties to enable future customers to gauge whether or not they should enter into a transaction themselves. It also has the option of remaining private.

 

Doctor Shipman, again a completely different kettle of fish. Information held about an individuals treatment can be made available to that individual. Private information about a person's employment cannot be divulged to a third party unless it concerns them, and if it did concern you then you would have been advised of such, as in invited to a hearing.

 

Unless you are the person's employer, are part of an internal investigatory team, part of a tribunal team, or prosecution service or the individual, you have no right or need to know on what grounds a person left their post.

 

The freedom of information act allows you to see information held about YOU, not others. There is another act. The Data Protection Act. An employees record and personnel file is between employee and employer, it is not public property.

[flyingdoc]

Shipman was allowed to continue because the monitoring mechanisms that should have been in place failed.

 

This again is something to do with the status that the Medical Profession still holds to itself. and woe betide any other health profession that dares to question a Doctor.

 

As Erica says this is a totally different kettle of fish - and you are, I fear, unhappy because you are not getting the answers that you want.

 

I am sorry if my answers displease you but I know that if personal information about Healthcare Professionals was published in the way that you seem to think you are entitled to - there would be many that would simply stop working in healthcare and those that remained would be persecuted by unhappy and often vindictive complainents.

 

There was a move a couple of years ago to make Nurses home addresses available on the Nursing Register so that you could literaly look up where any registered nurse lived.

 

Had this been passed then I am certain that the number of UK nurses in the profession would have plummeted and the number of attacks on nurses would have spiralled.

 

I dont see why you think that your rights should outweigh anyone elses.

[Rob S]

You should not be able to access information regarding the work. or disciplinary record of a person where the information has no connection with you personally.

 

What about details of a persons qualifications, do you think that should be made available?

[alexb123]

Feedback on eBay? That is a terrible comparison. Feedback on eBay relates to a transaction between two parties to enable future customers to gauge whether or not they should enter into a transaction themselves. It also has the option of remaining private.

 

 

My point is people are interested and happy to leave/read feedback from someone selling socks but in flyingDoc's view we should not be allow to see information regarding people who we in trust out lives?

[alexb123]

Shipman was allowed to continue because the monitoring mechanisms that should have been in place failed.

 

This again is something to do with the status that the Medical Profession still holds to itself. and woe betide any other health profession that dares to question a Doctor.

 

As Erica says this is a totally different kettle of fish - and you are, I fear, unhappy because you are not getting the answers that you want.

 

I am sorry if my answers displease you but I know that if personal information about Healthcare Professionals was published in the way that you seem to think you are entitled to - there would be many that would simply stop working in healthcare and those that remained would be persecuted by unhappy and often vindictive complainents.

 

There was a move a couple of years ago to make Nurses home addresses available on the Nursing Register so that you could literaly look up where any registered nurse lived.

 

Had this been passed then I am certain that the number of UK nurses in the profession would have plummeted and the number of attacks on nurses would have spiralled.

 

I dont see why you think that your rights should outweigh anyone elses.

 

I am entitled to know the complaints lodged against a department and some other information, that is all I was look for. And I only want the information I am legally entitled to I am not asking anyone to write new laws for me.

[flyingdoc]

You are entitled?

What is it exactly that you think you are entitled to?

Are you entitled to know the disciplinary record of the person who butchers the meat in the supermarket you use, or perhaps the driver of the bus you ride( you do entrust your lives to these people also, or not to poison you or crash the bus)

You have the right to make complaints and you have the right to information in the public domain (league tables) you also have the right to see your own notes (or such notes as your doctor deems you can see) and any data particularly relating to you.

However I do not see why any person who chooses to work in healhcare should be required to give up their personal rights.

I am personally sick to death of people who seem to think that just because you are their Nurse/Doctor or carer that they in some way own you.

Pursue your complaint - I urge you, this is the only way that improvements may be made - but in doing so dont trample the rights of the people who work very difficult circumstances.

[ErikaPNP]

My point is people are interested and happy to leave/read feedback from someone selling socks but in flyingDoc's view we should not be allow to see information regarding people who we in trust out lives?

 

And my point is the two are non comparable for the reasons stated. eBay members are VOLUNTERING this information, the private option is there if they choose to use it and it is part of the terms and conditions entered into upon registering. It also solely relates to activities on the site, you couldn't contact eBay and ask for the contents of "ebay messages" sent between traders unless you were the police, FIS or party to the transaction in question. You can see feedback left only, if the member allows you to view it by making their feedback public. So if you want to make eBay a comparison, you can see similar applies here. People are privy to information based on the NEED or the RIGHT to know.

 

It is not a "view" of flying doc, it is a piece of legislation called the Data Protection Act. A law which stands to protect the privacy of people, If this sort of information was made available to Joe Public it would be a breach of the law. A person, no matter what his professional capacity is as entitled to his privacy as the next person. His employers cannot go handing out reasons for his leaving to any Tom Dick or Harry who requests it.

 

You are not entitled to know on what grounds a person left employment unless you are one of the people stated in my previous post.

[alexb123]

My point is I would rather know the background of a health professional than anyone else. Health professionals are 'professionals' and they should adhere and be accountable to the very highest of standard, a butcher or bus driver can be an bod off the street.

 

Also, people here seem to have taken my question on a far deeper level than was intended. I'm sure the ethics etc of this debate have been considered in passing the relevant laws. I'm not saying the outcome was the most ethical.

 

All I wanted to know was which information would be available to me, I am happy to accept whatever information is sent to me.

[ErikaPNP]

IT's not about the debate of points made. It's to do with answering your query:

 

All I wanted to know was which information would be available to me

I wanted to to enquirer on what grounds these people left and I wondered what my rights are under the freedom of information act

I believe your original query had been answered. The freedom of information act allows you to see data held about YOU. The Data protection act prevents the details you want, about SOMEONE ELSE being released to you.

[flyingdoc]

Healthcare professionals are accountable to a higher standard as they should be - but they are judged by those qualified to do so not just by "bods off the street" which is, with the greatest respect what you are.

 

Just because you have been treated by a particular specialist, you feel you are qualified to judge them? I think not.

You are qualified to give your opinion of a practitioner whom you have seen but that will hardly be a qualified and balanced one - rather one based on a single patients experience.

[alexb123]

Flying my whole point of wanting this information was to see if what happened to me happened to other patients. So I respect that it is only my view which may not be representative of everyones experience.

 

Also, my g/f is a few months away from her own doctorate so I could pass this information to her and according to your theory she would be better equipped to understand and deal with a situation than myself who was there and experienced it first hand? I think not. However, she would be better equipped to know the rules and regulations.

 

As a patient I more entitled than anyone else to make a judgment of my treatment! However, from an unqualified perspective I may be right or wrong in that judgement.

[flyingdoc]

if you want to know what has happened to other patients then what you need to do is perhaps websearch it and/or post information on a health centered webblog and allow others to tell you their experience.

 

Your g/f doctorate will enable her to give qualified opinion in her field, but as you say not about your experience.

 

I apologise if I appear to be overly defensive here but as a healthcare professional whose rights have been continually abused by the service and who has been physically, verbally and professionally abused by those who I was supposed to be helping any attack on what little privacy we have left is particularly galling to me.

 

All the changes that have come about in the health service have, with much justification, been regarding patients - with no thought to the additional pressure, workload, responsibilities and indignity that the staff would have to suffer to make it work.

 

I personally had had enough and got out. Many with far more dedication than me have stayed.

[alexb123]

flying I understand your frustration and under the surface I think our views aren't that far apart anyway