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Davey77 vs Capital One *** WON ***

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Ok, this has been going on a while and it's all lumped together on my main thread here:

 

Debt written off due to Carers Allowance? - The Consumer Forums

 

But it's time to separate my different battles out into individual threads.

 

BASICS:

 

Capital One Credit Card. Start Date: September 2003

 

Got into financial difficulties and had all the usual 'pay now' and threats etc etc

 

Eventually asked for a copy of the credit agreement under the consumer credit act 1974 (s77-79).

 

Dear Madam,

With reference to the above account I would be grateful if you would send me a copy of this credit agreement and a full breakdown of the account including any interest or charges applied. I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 -sections 77-79-, I am entitled to receive a copy of any credit agreement and a statement of account on request. I enclose a payment of £1 which represents the fee

payable under the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I understand a copy of any credit agreement along with a statement of account should be supplied within 12 working days.

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with the request for a copy of the agreement and statement of account under these sections of the Act.

Eventually they sent a copy of the application form and terms and conditions (current ones).

Numerous requests for a properly executed agreement were replied with either silence or 'we have sent you everything the law requires'. Here is what they sent (along with T&Cs that referred to the £12 charge. Remember this card was applied for in 2003 well before the £12 charge was introduced.):

 

CapitalOneCCAApplication.jpg

 

Along with my many letters requesting the correct documentation:

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am in receipt of your correspondence in reply to my request for the Credit Card Agreement for the above account.

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement under the terms of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 -sections -77-79-.

 

However, the document that you have provided is clearly marked application form and therefore pre-contractual and not compliant to my request for the CCA under the terms of the above act. It is also a breach of the Act and the Regulations to send the application form rather than a true copy of the agreement.

 

I therefore require that you provide me with a copy of the correct document or your written acknowledgement that you are unable to do so.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CAP1MarP1.jpg

Cap1MarP2.jpg

I actually had already sent a complaint to the FOS based on the lack of a properly executed agreement. This was trashed by them with the following :

 

Cap1FOS1.jpg

Cap1FOS2.jpg

Cap1FOS3.jpg

 

The FOS said i was 'barking up the wrong tree' taking that kind of complaint to them and that the breaches of OFT Debt Collection Guidance and the Banking Code (let alone the CCA) didn't matter and i should expect a creditor to want their money back regardless of any regulations.

 

Trading Standards ignored my complaints for over a year and eventually i found out (by complaining to the Council Complaints dept) that TS had 'investigated and resolved' my complaints 12 months previously. I knew nothing about that and they didn't ask for any details at the time or since. In other words, Trading Standards are either in bed with Cap1 or scared of them.

 

In the end i got tired of asking for an agreement and when Fredricksons (DCA) started giving me the 'we will take you to Court in 7 days) letters, of which never amounted to anything anyway as usual) i decided to try to take Cap1 to Court myself.

 

Having reviewed the copy documents you have sent in response to my request under s78 CCA, I have come to the conclusion that no valid or enforceable agreement exists between us. This is because the only document I signed is a pre-contractual application form which does not contain any prescribed terms, or any other terms or statutory notices as required by the CCA.

 

The documents you have supplied do not comply with s61(1) or s127(3) CCA and are therefore improperly executed and totally unenforceable:

 

s61 CCA - Signing of agreement:

(1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

© the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible.

s127(3) CCA:

(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

Further, the only document I have signed is a pre-contractual application for credit, which may or may not have been accepted, depending on your lending criteria. This was therefore an agreement that falls under s59(1) CCA and is consequently void:

s59 - Agreement to enter future agreement void

(1) An agreement is void if, and to the extent that, it purports to bind a person to enter as debtor or hirer into a prospective regulated agreement.

 

I therefore require a full refund of all payments made to you in the mistaken belief that a valid and enforceable agreement existed. I have calculated this figure to be £***p and I have enclosed a schedule setting out the details of my claim. I have also included statutory interest at the rate of 8% per annum from the date of each payment, and so require settlement in the total sum of £***.

 

I also require that any adverse information provided by you in respect of this account to any credit reference agency be deleted from their records. If I do not receive an acceptable settlement proposal within 14 days of receipt of this letter, I shall issue court proceedings without further notice.

 

Since this letter is the first stage of intended court action, you are required under the general pre-action protocol of the CPR to send me any information I request. Please therefore supply me with a copy of any and all documents in your possession that you will be relying on as a defence to this claim. In particular, since the application form refers to information 'overleaf', I require that you send me a full copy of that original document, i.e. the front and the reverse', plus a true copy of the original terms and conditions. If you do not comply with this request, or send me written confirmation that no original copies of these documents exist, within the 14 days as specified above, I shall consider applying to the court for an order under Part 18 CPR.

 

I sent the N1 to Cap1 April 2008. They gave their intention to defend.

Various replies to defense back and forth. I asked for an agreement complying to the regulations and they stated that they had already done so and that the variation of the T&Cs over time was enough. Pretty complicated stuff in many ways and it's not over yet so i won't post too much about those details just yet.

 

Court date is set for the 8th December 2008 (this Monday) and today i get this from Cap1. I don't know what they are talking about as the Court fee remission form has been sent in already. I am trying to get through to the Court today just to make sure:

Cap1-1.jpg

 

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t42/davey77_2007/Cap1-1.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t42/davey77_2007/Cap2.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t42/davey77_2007/Cap3.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t42/davey77_2007/Cap4.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t42/davey77_2007/Cap5.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t42/davey77_2007/Cap6.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t42/davey77_2007/Cap7.jpg


:!: -Any advise I give is based purely on my own experience. It should not be solely relied upon as I am NOT a legal expert and any major decisions you make should not be based on my opinion alone -

HFC Bank - Davey vs HFC

Barclays - Monthly payments made

Cahoot - Agreement received, awaiting 2nd agreement after DCA.

MBNA1&2 - Agreements received. (Currently in limbo)

Halifax - Davey vs Halifax/Cabot

MINT - Davey vs Mint

Amex - Davey vs Amex

Cap1 **WON** £1,500 Written Off Davey vs Cap1

 

Never Sign Anything

 

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Hello Davey77!

 

This is a repeat of my Post over on your Main Thread, but that went up before I noticed you had started this Thread! Hope it's of some use.

 

This is a Witness Statement from someone who doesn't actually have direct knowledge of handling the Agreement itself.

 

...my own knowledge based on information supplied to me or based on enquiries I have made.

 

In other words, this Witness has started off their Witness Statement by saying they base what follows on information that others have supplied to them, or that has been advised to them following their enquiries.

 

This is a Witness Statement from someone who wasn't a Witness to the events.

 

They then go on to write about what would've been sent to you, not from their own first hand experience, but from what others have told them.

 

Who are these others, and why can't they make their own Witness Statements?

 

When exactly did Wendy Starr start working for Capital One? Was she working for them in 2003, and what involvement would she have had in the sending out and in the receipt of the alleged Application Forms?

 

Did she misplace the Agreement, or was it one of the people who told her about what would've been sent to you who lost it?

 

In the Witness Statement:

 

5. The application pack would have contained the credit agreement in the format attached at Exhibit WS1 and would have consisted of:

 

How does she know this? Who told her? Can that person be called as a Witness?

 

5.I.ii a separate declaration under the heading "Credit Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974" and stating that the applicant (the Claimant) had read and agreed to be bound by the full terms and conditions of the credit card agreement with Capital One. On the reverse of this document underneath the heading "Consumer Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. These terms are taken from Clauses 8, 10 and 23 of the Terms and Conditions that you sign with us" there would also have been an extract of the key terms of the credit agreement including the prescribed terms for the purposes of Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983; and

 

Again, this is all guesswork, based on what others have told her. It is not something she appears to have had any direct involvement with by the sound of things. Would a Legal Specialist be involved with licking Stamps to send out Application Forms, and would they get involved with opening envelopes when Application Forms came back?

 

So how does she know what was, or was not sent to you?

 

In any event, the Heading she points out is not, actually, correct if they want the alleged Application Form that would've been sent to you to become an alleged Agreement:

 

See: Consumer Credit Act (1974) and related Regulations

 

This is not headed correctly if they want this Application Form to become a Regulated Credit Card Agreement...they've omitted the word Card!

 

SI 1983/1553 (see link above) says [1(d) applies to your Card]:

 

(1) Subject to paragraph (2) below, a heading in one of the following forms of words--

 

(a) "Hire Purchase Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974";

 

(b) "Conditional Sale Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974";

 

© "Fixed Sum Loan Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974"; or

 

(d) "Credit Card Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974",as the case may require.

 

(2) If none of the headings in 1(a) to (d) above are applicable a heading in the following form of words--

 

"Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974".

 

(3) Where the document and a pawn-receipt are combined, the words ", and Pawn Receipt," shall be inserted in the heading after the word

"Agreement".

 

(4) Where the document embodies an agreement of which at least one part is a credit agreement not regulated by the Act, the word "partly" shall be inserted before "regulated" unless the regulated and unregulated parts of the agreement are clearly separate.

 

(5) Where the credit is being secured on land the words "secured on" followed by the address of the land shall be inserted at the end of the

heading.

 

She then goes on to say that they would've sent you another Document, and that when combined with the Application Form, would've formed the original credit Agreement. Well, the other Document can contain non-vital Terms, but it cannot contain the Prescribed Terms.

 

The rest of the Witness Statement falls apart if she has not proved what was actually sent to you.

 

The rest is just trying to explain how it all hangs together after you gloss over the fact that she is no Witness to the events. But the rest only works if you take a leap of faith and accept that she knows what she is talking about...even though she probably wasn't there at the time, had no involvement in what was sent to you, and is basing all of what she claims on what others may or may not have told her.

 

I think you need to try and get hold of PT2537 or Surfaceagentx20, and see what they have to say.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

Edited by banker_rhymes_with
Typo
  • Haha 1

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Just reserving my front row seat:D

 

I am thinking as you have a court date, this might be better off in the legal forum, Davey. I will ask a mod/site helper to move it for you.


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Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Hello Davey77!

 

I agree with CB, this should really be in the Legal Forum, given the looming Court deadline.

 

That Witness Statement needs to be shot down in flames.

 

Cheers,

BRW

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Thread moved.


 
 

Any advice I give is honest and in good faith.:)

If in doubt, you should seek the opinion of a Qualified Professional.

If you can, please donate to this site.

Help keep it up and active, helping people like you.

If you no longer require help, please do what you can to help others

RIP: Rooster-UK - MARTIN3030 - cerberusalert

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Thanks again Banker_Rhymes. That's a big help. I'll be typing away first thing in the morning. Hopefully there is enough time.

 

Seems i got moved.. thanks CB.


:!: -Any advise I give is based purely on my own experience. It should not be solely relied upon as I am NOT a legal expert and any major decisions you make should not be based on my opinion alone -

HFC Bank - Davey vs HFC

Barclays - Monthly payments made

Cahoot - Agreement received, awaiting 2nd agreement after DCA.

MBNA1&2 - Agreements received. (Currently in limbo)

Halifax - Davey vs Halifax/Cabot

MINT - Davey vs Mint

Amex - Davey vs Amex

Cap1 **WON** £1,500 Written Off Davey vs Cap1

 

Never Sign Anything

 

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ugh before i got through to the Court the postman turns up with the remission forms returned.

The problem was that i had requested a recent Income Support letter but it hadn't arrived in time, so i sent the Court remission fee form to the Court with a covering letter stating i was awaiting the benefit letter and would forward that when i received it.

 

That form was returned asking me to supply all documentation.. Luckily the benefit letter arrived so i stuck the lot in the post to the Court.

Well now they have sent the whole lot back saying "sorry, but we require your latest letter to be annexed to this".

Give me a break! I almost didn't send it in but i write another letter and stick them together with a first class stamp.

Guess Cap1 weren't telling porkies after all. Could do without all this at the moment.

 

By the way, i did search for an email address for Cap1 legal dept on the thread but for the life of me couldn't find one. That may still be useful if anyone has it :)


:!: -Any advise I give is based purely on my own experience. It should not be solely relied upon as I am NOT a legal expert and any major decisions you make should not be based on my opinion alone -

HFC Bank - Davey vs HFC

Barclays - Monthly payments made

Cahoot - Agreement received, awaiting 2nd agreement after DCA.

MBNA1&2 - Agreements received. (Currently in limbo)

Halifax - Davey vs Halifax/Cabot

MINT - Davey vs Mint

Amex - Davey vs Amex

Cap1 **WON** £1,500 Written Off Davey vs Cap1

 

Never Sign Anything

 

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I too have done a search for that email addy, Davey.. no luck I'm afraid. :(


Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy -

HERE

2: Take back control of your finances -

Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors?

Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt

Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated -

Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

 

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Thanks for trying anyways CB. No worries. I'll use first class carrier pigeon.. that will do the trick. :)


:!: -Any advise I give is based purely on my own experience. It should not be solely relied upon as I am NOT a legal expert and any major decisions you make should not be based on my opinion alone -

HFC Bank - Davey vs HFC

Barclays - Monthly payments made

Cahoot - Agreement received, awaiting 2nd agreement after DCA.

MBNA1&2 - Agreements received. (Currently in limbo)

Halifax - Davey vs Halifax/Cabot

MINT - Davey vs Mint

Amex - Davey vs Amex

Cap1 **WON** £1,500 Written Off Davey vs Cap1

 

Never Sign Anything

 

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Hello Davey77!

 

Just a quick note to make sure you are aware that the Prescribed Terms must be Contained within the four corners of the Agreement, they cannot be embodied within a 2x Document Agreement.

 

That means they must be directly contained with your Signature, they cannot be found within a 2nd Document.

 

The 2nd Document can include non-essential Terms that would form part of the overall Agreement, but those Terms must not include the key Prescribed Terms.

 

The Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

s61(1)(b) is concerned with those non-essential Terms. Failure to comply with this is not fatal.

 

s61(1)(a) is concerned with the Prescribed Terms. Failure to comply with this is fatal (at least for written Agreements made before the Consumer Credit Act 2006).

 

Where the so called Witness Statement bleats on about a 2nd Document, that can be ignored when talking about the Prescribed Terms.

 

The area to home in on is where the so called Witness Statement tries to say what would've been on the back of the Copy alleged Agreement. That's the part they are trying to nail by smoke and mirrors.

 

You need to read up on:

 

CPR Practice Direction 16 7.3 as that covers the requirement to produce the Original Agreement in Court if the alleged Agreement is based on a Written Document (as yours is).

 

The Civil Evidence Act 1995 as that covers Hearsay evidence, which is what their Copy Agreement is, as is any other Copy Document that they want to produce in Court. They need to notify the Court when they wish to produce Hearsay evidence, and they also need to produce hard evidence to back up the copies if they want them to be considered. Even then, they should carry less weight as evidence, as they are not the real thing.

 

The Real Thing = Evidence

 

This needs nothing else to be taken 100% seriously as fact.

 

A Copy = Hearsay evidence

 

This needs supporting Evidence to increase its weighting, such as detailed notes and real Witness Statements from people who were there.

 

Ideally, they would need actual Witness Statements from the people who handled your Document, i.e. the ones who sent it out to you, the ones who booked it back in, the ones who Scanned it, the ones who elected to Destroy a live Statutory Document, the ones who looked after the Scan, and the ones who Printed off Copies from that Scan. All need to be Signed and Dated.

 

A Legal Assistant writing an essay saying what she thinks was the case is nowhere near what is needed to support their position. This Witness needs to be called in for some serious cross-examination, starting with asking them when they started working for Capital One...were they even there in 2003 and, if so, in which Department did they work?

 

Cheers,

BRW

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thanks for all the help there.. much appreciated. I have other docs and info but feel its hard to post them up right at this moment (what with other battles i have going on at the mo which one day could end up in Court). Totally agree though that saying 'would have' and 'maybe' from someone who wasn't there on the day really isn't much in the way of hard factual evidence is it.

 

OK i'll get back to work now, busy day.. thanks again, i'll keep popping in as i go! :)


:!: -Any advise I give is based purely on my own experience. It should not be solely relied upon as I am NOT a legal expert and any major decisions you make should not be based on my opinion alone -

HFC Bank - Davey vs HFC

Barclays - Monthly payments made

Cahoot - Agreement received, awaiting 2nd agreement after DCA.

MBNA1&2 - Agreements received. (Currently in limbo)

Halifax - Davey vs Halifax/Cabot

MINT - Davey vs Mint

Amex - Davey vs Amex

Cap1 **WON** £1,500 Written Off Davey vs Cap1

 

Never Sign Anything

 

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Hello Davey77!

 

5. The Claimant applied for his credit card by responding to a direct mailing application pack which had been sent to him by the Defendant. The application pack would have contained the credit agreement in the format attached at Exhibit “WS1” and would have consisted of:

 

What does Exhibit WS1 comprise of? More copies, or have they included a blank Original example of what they would've sent you?

 

This doesn't mean it's an example of what they did send, because it's entirely possible they realised their mistake, and had a new batch of blank Application Forms Printed that had Terms added to the Rear. That would be a printing job worth doing (for them) if it can mean hood winking Judges into letting them make Copies of otherwise Unenforceable Application Forms into Enforceable Copy Agreements!

 

I trust bankers about as far as I can throw one of them, so would never rule anything out.

 

Unless this Starr character was involved in this from day one, how can she possibly know all that she claims...Wintess Statement creation via Crystal Ball perhaps?

 

If you can elaborate on what WS1 looks like, that may help to get to bottom of what they are bringing along to try and big up the lack of an Original Signed Agreement.

 

I think you should research what a proper Document Management System should entail, and then get Starr to explain to the Court how the one they haven't got at Capital One works by comparison. She can also explain how theirs loses Original Documents for example.

 

Cheers,

BRW

Edited by banker_rhymes_with
Typo Word Mangle

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Hello Davey77!

 

This may help you to get a good discussion going on the so called Witness Statement!

 

I've pulled the Text for you, so that others can now cut and paste to add any comments to help you pull that Witness Statement apart:

 

Made on behalf of the Defendant

Witness: Wendy StarrShip Enterprise

1st Statement of Witness

Exhibits: 3

 

Dated: 27 November 2008

 

IN THE TORQUAY AND NEWTON ABBOT COUNTY COURT

 

CLAIM NO:

 

BETWEEN:

Davey77

Claimant

 

-and-

 

CAPITAL ONE BANK (EUROPE) PLC

Defendant

 

WITNESS STATEMENT OF WENDY STARRSHIP ENTERPRISE

 

I, Wendy StarrShip Enterprise of Capital One Bank (Europe) plc. Trent House, Station Street, Nottingham, NG2 3HX, will say as follows:

 

1. The facts and matters referred to in this statement are, unless otherwise indicated, of my own knowledge based on information supplied to me or based on enquiries I have made. The same is true to the best of my information, knowledge and belief. Where the facts or the matters referred to in this statement are not within my own knowledge, the source of the information is stated. [BRW Translation: I'm making this up as I go along, and have a deep faith that you won't notice my lack of a Paddle as I head up this creek]

 

2. I make this statement in support of Capital One Bank (Europe) plc’s (“the Defendant”) defence of Mr (“the Claimant”) claim. [because they pay me to write this guff, and I don't want to be made redundant]

 

3. I work as a Legal Specialist in the Consumer Lending team within the Defendant’s Legal Department [my specialist subject is fiction]. The team comprises 6 lawyers and 5 legal specialists [and a right slippery bunch we are too].

 

4. The Claimant entered into his credit agreement for a running-account credit facility with the Defendant when he signed his credit agreement on 2 September 2003 [I mean Application Form, but if I keep saying Agreement enough times, I may get away with this]. The account was subsequently opened on 18 September 2003.

 

5. The Claimant applied for his credit card by responding to a direct mailing application pack which had been sent to him by the Defendant. The application pack would have contained the credit agreement in the format attached at Exhibit “WS1” and would have consisted of:

 

I. The signature page of the credit agreement to be signed and returned, and which in turn included:

 

i. a section headed ‘Ultra Short Application’ for the Claimant to complete his personal details:

 

ii. a separate declaration under the heading “Credit Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974” [incorrect Heading] and stating that the applicant (the Claimant) had read and agreed to be bound by the full terms and conditions of the credit card agreement with Capital One. On the reverse of this document underneath the heading “Consumer Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 7974 [incorrect Heading, again, and how does Mistress StarrShip know what was on the reverse?]. These terms are taken from Clauses 8, 10 and 23 of the Terms and Conditions that you sign with us”, there would also have been an extract of the key terms of the credit agreement including the prescribed terms for the purposes of Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983; and

 

iii. a place for both the Claimant and the Defendant to sign the credit agreement on the front.

 

II. A further document headed “Credit Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 - Terms and Conditions” containing the full terms and conditions of the credit agreement. This document was referred to in the declaration on the signature page of the credit agreement (referred to at section I.ii above) which the Claimant signed. This document also formed the copy agreement for the Claimant to keep.

 

Together, the documents referred to at section I and II above and being Exhibit WS1, formed the original credit agreement [do they really, prove it].

 

6. In addition, when the Claimant received his credit token (credit card) he would also have received a further copy of the credit agreement. This copy comprised the document to which the credit card was attached and which would have contained the financial particulars relating to the credit agreement and a leaflet containing the rest of the terms of the credit agreement.

 

7. It is acknowledged that the Defendant’s Defence dated 28 May 2008 did not clearly set out that it is in fact the documents referred to at both sections I and II above (Exhibit WS1 to this Witness Statement) that together formed the Claimant’s original credit agreement (although all these documents were exhibited to the Defence). I believe that this is the reason why the Claimant has alleged that the Defendant has not provided him with a copy of his original credit agreement. However, Exhibit A of the Defence clearly states that the terms enclosed on the reverse of the signature page of the credit agreement are ‘taken from Clauses 8, 10 and 23 of the Terms and Conditions that you sign with us….‘ For further clarity I will state that it is in fact both Exhibits A and B of the Defence that form the Claimant’s original credit agreement.

 

8. It is the Defendant’s belief that the documents at Exhibit WS1 together embody [the CCA says nothing about embody] the terms of the credit agreement and contain [prove it] all the prescribed terms in accordance with the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983. namely: details of the credit limit (by including a statement that the creditor will set and notify the debtor of the credit limit as permitted by the regulations), rate of interest and payment terms.

 

9. The Claimant contends that the credit agreement does not contain any of the prescribed terms [no, the Application Form doesn't, there's a big difference between the two]. The Prescribed Terms for the purposes of section 61(1) (a) and 127(3) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (“the CCA”) are set out in Schedule 6 of the 1983 Regulations. The relevant terms for a credit card (running-account credit facility) are:

 

a. a term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit (which can be expressed as a statement that the credit limit will be determined by the creditor from time to time under the agreement and that notice of it will be given by him to the debtor pursuant to Schedule 1 of the 1983 Regulations);

 

b. a term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement; and

 

c. a term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of the number of repayments, the amount of the repayments, the frequency and timing of them, the dates of them, and the manner in which any of the above may be determined, or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.

 

10. The Prescribed Terms are set out in the Claimant’s credit agreement as follows:

 

a. The required statement relating to the Claimant’s credit limit is stated in Section 10 of the credit agreement (section 2 of the extract of terms on the reverse of the signature page of the credit agreement) headed “Financial and Related Particulars” as “We will set and notify you of the credit limit(s) for your account. We may change your credit limit (s) from time to time and notify you of any change”. [she's on a roll now, as she is assuming everyone has glossed over the lack of the Original alleged Agreement]

 

b. The term relating to the rate of interest is also included at Section 10 “Financial and Related Particulars” as follows “Interest will be charged monthly for each statement period (being the period between monthly statement dates) on the average daily outstanding balance including all transactions an other charges debited to the account The current interest rates are shown below. The monthly interest rates are equal to one twelfth of the sum of the Base Rate as at the seventh day prior to the beginning of the statement period, plus for purchases and balance transfers a margin of 22.98%, The margin is 22.98% for cash withdrawals. There is also a handling fee of 1.5% on cash withdrawals (minimum £2). The Base Rate may change from time to time. At the time this agreement was prepared this formula gave interest rates shown below. For those charges in section 11 that are applied to your account, interest will be charged as if they were purchases.

 

c. The term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make repayments is included at Section 10 as “You must make the minimum payment by the due date shown on your monthly statement. The amount of the minimum payment will be shown on your Monthly Statement and will be an amount equal to 5% of the new balance or £5.00, whichever is greater. In addition, you must immediately pay any amounts in excess of your credit limit or which are overdue and the amount of any transaction made in breach of this agreement”.

 

The applicable interest rates at the time the credit agreement was prepared are contained in the table at section 10 of the terms and conditions of the credit agreement (section 2 of the extract of terms on the reverse of the signature page of the credit agreement). The APR is also detailed within this section.

 

11. The Claimant states that the Defendant has failed to comply with the provision of Section 64 (1) of the CCA 1974 by failing to provide him with notice of his cancellation rights. The terms relating to cancellation are set out in the credit agreement as follows:

 

a. The signature page of the credit agreement (contained within Exhibit ‘WS1’) includes the statement “Your Right to Cancel” “Once you have signed this agreement you will have for a short time a right to cancel. Exact details of how and when you can do this will be sent to you by post by Capita! One.” as required by Regulation 2 (7) of the 1983 Regulations and set out in Schedule 2 Part I.

 

b. The copy of the credit agreement sent to the Claimant for him to keep (contained within Exhibit WS1) also included a box headed “Your Right To Cancel” which set out the Claimant’s right of cancellation, how and when this may be exercised and the name and address of the person to whom notice of cancellation may be given by the statement “Once you have signed you will have for a short time a right to cancel this agreement. You can do this by sending or taking a WRITTEN notice of cancellation to Capital One Bank (Europe) Plc, PO Box 5285, Nottingham, NG2 3YN...” as required by Regulation 5 (1) of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 and Part II of the Schedule thereof,

 

c. In addition, the Claimant would have been provided with a further copy of the credit agreement when he received his credit card (credit token). This further copy comprised a document to which the card was attached which would have contained the prescribed terms relating to the credit agreement and a leaflet containing the rest of the terms of the credit agreement including the Claimant’s right to cancel and a Cancellation Form as required by Regulation 5 (2) of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 and Part Ill and Part IV of the Schedule thereof

 

12. The Claimant contends that the credit agreement does not contain the required reference to charges on default as required by the 1983 Regulations Schedule 1(22). Pursuant to Schedule 1(22) the credit agreement should include an indication of any charges payable to the Defendant by the Claimant if he breaches the Agreement. This is satisfied by the statements in Section 11 of the credit agreement which contains a power to enforce charges on various incidents of default. The credit agreement also sets out the level of those charges. [she's assuming we now accept what would've been there]!

 

13. The Claimant states that the Defendant is in breach of Section 78 of the CCA by failing to provide him with a copy of his original terms and conditions in response to a request submitted under Section 78. The Defendant’s Executive Response Team received a request under section 78 of the CCA from the Claimant dated 11 April 2007 and the Defendant’s Executive Response Team responded on 1 May 2007. A copy of the Claimant’s request and the Defendant’s response is attached at Exhibit “WS2”.

 

14. The Claimant wrote to the Defendant again in a letter dated 27 April 2007 to say that he had only received a copy of his application form. On the 16 July 2007 the Defendant replied and advised that it would send the documents out again and that they would be sent separately. The correspondence is attached at Exhibit “WS3”.

 

15. It is the Defendant’s belief [you gotta have faith] that the Claimant will have received the signature page of his credit agreement together with the current terms and conditions of his credit agreement. Indeed this has been acknowledged as having been received by the Claimant in paragraph 1 of his Reply to the Defence dated 12 June 2008.

 

16. The Claimant has stated that he had received a copy of what he has referred to as his application form and in addition had received separate terms and conditions, that are entirely different from the terms and conditions that the Defendant now claims are applicable. This is not the case as originally the Claimant made a request under Section 78 of the CCA and not a copy of the original terms and conditions of his credit agreement, which is the documentation attached at Exhibit “WS1”. [eh? What does that mean?]

 

17. Under Section 78 of the CCA a creditor is obliged to provide the debtor with a “copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it” if the debtor requests this in writing and pays a £1 fee. Regulation 3 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 states that “every copy of an executed agreement” shall be a “true copy”. However, there may be omitted from such certain information including the signature box, signature and dale of signature and name and address of the debtor. Pursuant to Regulation 7 of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 where an agreement may be unilaterally varied [how do we know it can be unilaterally varied then?], every copy of the “executed agreement” given to the debtor shall include the terms of the credit agreement as varied. As a result, in providing the Claimant with a copy of the terms of his credit agreement as varied at the date of the response to the section 78 request, the Defendant has complied with the provisions of Section 78 of the CCA [this is logic Jim, but not as we know it]

 

18. On the basis that the Defendant has provided the Claimant with a copy of both the original credit agreement that he signed in September 2003 and a copy of the terms and conditions of his credit agreement as varied at the time of the section 78 request, I consider that the Claimant has fulfilled its obligations to the Claimant and that the Claimant has no further claim against the Defendant. There remains in place an enforceable agreement between the parties. [she would say that, now wouldn't she! It's her Job after all!]

 

Statement of Truth [even though she probably wasn't there anyway, and would never have been involved in the issues, and has no idea who was there at the time either!]

 

I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. [all start signing the Chorus Line...you gotta have faith!]

 

Wendy StarrShip Enterprise

Dated this 27th day of November 2008

 

Please do double check the Text, as I only proof read it quickly.

 

Call this an early Christmas present!

 

Cheers,

BRW

Edited by banker_rhymes_with
Red bits for consideration!

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BRW, that is priceless :lol::lol:


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4: Staying Calm About Debt

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2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

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5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

 

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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wow that's really nice of you to take the trouble...thanks BRW! But...... perhaps i can use that next time as..

 

the claim has been struck out!! Letter this morning from Judge Moon. Hearing Vacated, claim struck out. Must have been because of the hearing fee issue!!!!??

 

Judges letter Is dated the 2nd which was when the letter from the Court came to say i needed to resend the remission form. ?! Ugh left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

Not my fault either as the Court held onto the remission for ages before sending it back at the very last minute saying they needed more info and after Moon had issued the strike out...

 

But... also this morning from Cap1:

 

3 letters recorded deliver. 1 was some rubbish about the account no longer being managed by the debt collection agency?! Right, ok.

 

The other 2 were exactly the same and from Wendy Starr.

 

"Without prejudice save as to costs

 

As advised, Capital One is in the process of instructing a Barrister to represent us at the hearing on Monday 8 December 2008. However, before we incur the cost of doing so, I am instructed to make an offer to settle this claim prior to the hearing in the sum of £674.01

 

This offer is full and final settlement of any and all claims arising out of the subject matter of the proceedings and is open until 12.00 pm on 5 December 2008. After this deadline has passed, the offer will be withdrawn and our instructions to our Barrister will be to proceed to defend the claim on the basis on the documentation already provided to you.

 

I would be grateful therefore if you would telephone me on receipt of this letter in order to discuss the matter. My direct line etc etc

 

Wendy Starr"


:!: -Any advise I give is based purely on my own experience. It should not be solely relied upon as I am NOT a legal expert and any major decisions you make should not be based on my opinion alone -

HFC Bank - Davey vs HFC

Barclays - Monthly payments made

Cahoot - Agreement received, awaiting 2nd agreement after DCA.

MBNA1&2 - Agreements received. (Currently in limbo)

Halifax - Davey vs Halifax/Cabot

MINT - Davey vs Mint

Amex - Davey vs Amex

Cap1 **WON** £1,500 Written Off Davey vs Cap1

 

Never Sign Anything

 

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Hello Davey77!

 

That's interesting!

 

If I understand this, the Court seem to have Struck Out your Claim, probably due to some confusion over the EX160 Fee Remission Form issue.

 

However, then Capital One have written to make a Full & Final Offer!

 

Are they trying to Pay you, or are they asking you to Pay them? As I read it above, they are trying to Pay you.

 

If so, maybe call Wendy Underpants and have her arm off before she checks their Post! Demand they Fax/Email through the Full & Final Offer Today...in view of the tight deadlines of course!

 

That Witness Statement still needs to be pulled apart, because if they don't use it this time, sure as eggs is eggs, they'll trot out something similar for another CAGGER.

 

The Threat of a Barrister is all just hot air to try and undermine your confidence. The Offer is the potentially interesting issue, that's if they really are trying to Pay you to get rid of you!

 

Maybe they've been reading your Threads and realise you won't be put off by that Witness Statement (from a Witness who wasn't actually a Witness) as they'd hoped.

 

Cheers,

BRW

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Edited to say. I had inidicated confusion,however BRW's post snuck in and made sense for me.:)

Edited by citizenB
spelling mistake

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

 

Looking for a draft letter? Use the CAG Library

Dealing with Customer Service Departments? - read the CAG Guide first

 

1: Making a PPI claim ? - Q & A's and spreadsheets for single premium policy -

HERE

2: Take back control of your finances -

Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors?

Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt

Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated -

Please Read

 

 

BCOBS

 

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

 

 

 

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Hey yes it's almost certain it was struck out because the Court messed up (or at least were really slow in pointing out the remission form was not fulfilled quickly enough).

 

The letter i sent yesterday to Cap1 was largely based on your (BRW) view point (which was mine also) on the witness statement and pointing out how i felt i had a lot to say and could argue my case to the Judge pointing out the Law etc etc. They will get that today no doubt. I also gave Cap1 my email address. I am averse to ringing these people. You never get the same in words as you do in writing... never have before anyways.

 

You are correct in that they are trying to offer me the money. £674.01 was my originally N1 claim amount.

 

Surely they know that i can issue another N1 (at no cost) and cause them expense over the next 8 months again. Wendy has my email address and they seem a lot keener than me the last few days to communicate so i will see what my inbox brings me.

They could revoke the offer and pass it to a DCA.. in which case i am either try to write to the Court to explain the delay in the fee remission and see if that gets another hearing (dont know how it works) or issues another N1, again. :)


:!: -Any advise I give is based purely on my own experience. It should not be solely relied upon as I am NOT a legal expert and any major decisions you make should not be based on my opinion alone -

HFC Bank - Davey vs HFC

Barclays - Monthly payments made

Cahoot - Agreement received, awaiting 2nd agreement after DCA.

MBNA1&2 - Agreements received. (Currently in limbo)

Halifax - Davey vs Halifax/Cabot

MINT - Davey vs Mint

Amex - Davey vs Amex

Cap1 **WON** £1,500 Written Off Davey vs Cap1

 

Never Sign Anything

 

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By email 5 mins ago:

 

Dear Mr X

 

Without prejudice save as to costs

 

I acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 3 December 2008 and note its contents.

 

You may already have now received my letter also dated 3 December 2008 in which I set out an offer made by Capital One to settle this matter prior to the court hearing.

 

If you have not yet received my letter, I am instructed to offer the sum of £674.01 in full and final settlement of any and all claims arising out of the subject matter of the proceedings.

 

This offer is open until 12.00 p.m. on 5 December 2008. After this deadline has passed, the offer will be withdrawn and our instructions to our barrister will be to proceed to defend the claim on the basis of the documentation already provided to you. We would hope however that we may reach a mutually agreeable settlement.

 

I would be grateful therefore if you would telephone me or respond via email in order to discuss the matter. My direct line is 0115 843 3013. If I am not available, please leave a message on my voicemail and I will return your call as soon as possible.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Wendy Starr

Legal Specialist


:!: -Any advise I give is based purely on my own experience. It should not be solely relied upon as I am NOT a legal expert and any major decisions you make should not be based on my opinion alone -

HFC Bank - Davey vs HFC

Barclays - Monthly payments made

Cahoot - Agreement received, awaiting 2nd agreement after DCA.

MBNA1&2 - Agreements received. (Currently in limbo)

Halifax - Davey vs Halifax/Cabot

MINT - Davey vs Mint

Amex - Davey vs Amex

Cap1 **WON** £1,500 Written Off Davey vs Cap1

 

Never Sign Anything

 

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Hello Davey77!

 

You are correct in that they are trying to offer me the money. £674.01 was my originally N1 claim amount.

 

Excellent!

 

I am averse to ringing these people. You never get the same in words as you do in writing... never have before anyways.

 

Fully agree, that was why I added that you should demand that the Full & Final Offer is confirmed in Writing via Fax/Email Today!

 

I think you can get the original Claim re-started, that's if the Court made an error on the handling of the EX160 Form.

 

So, assuming that to be the case, there should be nothing to stop you pressing ahead once that has been cleared up.

 

Perhaps point this out to Capital One (in writing), and say you will, however, accept their Full & Final Offer to save bothering the Court.

 

Draft that with the Court in mind, so that should push come to shove, you can produce that to confirm you gave them the chance to avoid wasting the Court's valuable time.

 

I'd read up on Full & Final Offers (I'm no expert), because you need to make sure they don't sneak in a poison pill of some sort. Demand that they do make it a complete end, and they must also delete anything nasty they have said about you over with their mates at the Credit Reference Agencies (CRAs).

 

But in summary, looks like Capital One know they are onto a loosing wicket here, the Threats are just them lashing out to try and bolster their retreat when they pull up the stumps and head back to the changing rooms.

 

Time to move in to put them out of their misery!

 

Cheers,

BRW

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I am being dumb here but as to the rest of the amount alledgely owed on the card i imagine that stays there.. if i agree i'll get 'pay £1500 by next thursday' letters from a DCA in a week?

 

Going to have to compose a reply...


:!: -Any advise I give is based purely on my own experience. It should not be solely relied upon as I am NOT a legal expert and any major decisions you make should not be based on my opinion alone -

HFC Bank - Davey vs HFC

Barclays - Monthly payments made

Cahoot - Agreement received, awaiting 2nd agreement after DCA.

MBNA1&2 - Agreements received. (Currently in limbo)

Halifax - Davey vs Halifax/Cabot

MINT - Davey vs Mint

Amex - Davey vs Amex

Cap1 **WON** £1,500 Written Off Davey vs Cap1

 

Never Sign Anything

 

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Totally agree there BRW.. i need to clarify the status of the ammount aledgely owed and the credit file asap via email now while she is sitting at her computer twidling her thumbs :)


:!: -Any advise I give is based purely on my own experience. It should not be solely relied upon as I am NOT a legal expert and any major decisions you make should not be based on my opinion alone -

HFC Bank - Davey vs HFC

Barclays - Monthly payments made

Cahoot - Agreement received, awaiting 2nd agreement after DCA.

MBNA1&2 - Agreements received. (Currently in limbo)

Halifax - Davey vs Halifax/Cabot

MINT - Davey vs Mint

Amex - Davey vs Amex

Cap1 **WON** £1,500 Written Off Davey vs Cap1

 

Never Sign Anything

 

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I do need permission from the judge to get the Court hearing back on i believe but im sure once i explain the reasons why the benefit letter was later than expected and i did communicate that to the Court then it's probably i would get a new hearing..


:!: -Any advise I give is based purely on my own experience. It should not be solely relied upon as I am NOT a legal expert and any major decisions you make should not be based on my opinion alone -

HFC Bank - Davey vs HFC

Barclays - Monthly payments made

Cahoot - Agreement received, awaiting 2nd agreement after DCA.

MBNA1&2 - Agreements received. (Currently in limbo)

Halifax - Davey vs Halifax/Cabot

MINT - Davey vs Mint

Amex - Davey vs Amex

Cap1 **WON** £1,500 Written Off Davey vs Cap1

 

Never Sign Anything

 

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Hello Davey77!

 

Our Posts just landed at the same time!

 

By email 5 mins ago:

 

Dear Mr X

 

Without prejudice save as to costs

 

I'm delighted for you, this is good news.

 

Don't call her, obviously! But do perhaps send back an email to accept, once you have checked any CAG Threads on Full & Final Offers.

 

Christmas for you is now on Capital One!

 

Do let us know when this is sorted, because I'm sure the Site Team will be only too pleased to change the Thread Title for you.

 

Cheers,

BRW

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