@npowerhelp Hillards & npower - pre-payment & debt

[pelham9]

well it seems we got an expert(NOT) here on how utlities work a budget scheme.

 

 

Perhaps it would be best to make sure you understand what my post was about before making even slighttly disparaging remarrks. I was not in any way talking about budget plans though their is an element of prepayment in all that I have seen.

 

The remarks I quoted from Hillard's post seemed to me to show that that he considered that the discount given for the DD scheme which he used at one time was a great monetary advantage to customers. I was pointing out that for many customers and this includes me the scheme can cost more than the discount. The utilities policy of management and monitoring these DD schemes is designed to claw back the discount by borrowing from customers saving them the cost of financing fuel paid by quarterly in arrear billing.

[verycatchy7939]

but power compinies bill in arrears as a credit facility dont see why the issue is? teh council do the same with council tax, if u go to rob you be worse off.

[pelham9]

I had NEVER paid in advance.

 

Then you did not pay by the usual direct debit scheme!

 

I must say from your post I cannot be sure how you were paying except that you did pay by the direct debit method at one time. Perhaps you could elucidate. All utility bills are in arrears of usage.

 

A qarterly in arrears bill must be paid within a certain time usually one month if the bill is not disputed before collection activities start. Indeed if the bill is payed in full within two weeks of receipt a 'quick payment' discount as high as 2% is sometimes given (which incidentally reduces the value of any DD discount).

 

Your post can be read in two ways.

 

a) when you received a bill which must have been in arrears you persuaded the utility to accept payment for that bill by three equal monthly payments by direct debit rather than start the collection process. If you managed to do this I congratulate you - you were paying an arrears bill in arrears and you always owed the utility.

 

b) you had a nornal DD plan requiring monthly payments the first three of which were asssessed probably on the previous year usage and paid in advance (one 2 months and two weeks in advance, one one month and 2 weeks in advance , and one two weeks in advance ) of the qarterly bill payment date. All subsequent DD payments are then paid in advance of the following quarterly bill payment date , You then seem to have managed to persuade the utility that the direct debit amount should be based on the previous arrears bill ( bill/3). Once again that is very clever. This would certainly have the effect that part of the larger winter bill would be paid in arrears. These payments in arrears for the winter bill could well have cancelled out the payments in advance inherent in the DD system.

 

Either way the utilities have tightened up their direct debit systems and you would now not get such deals. If you ever get out of your prepaid meter scenario (which is very definitely payment in advance!!) they will not give you such latitude.

 

I have a vague memory a fairly recent thread where the OP was complaining that the utility had withdrawn a similar deal as a) and had classified the OP as a bad payer.

[pelham9]

Very catchy.

 

You are quite right. By accepting that you can pay for gas after using it the utility is in effect giving you a credit. You are entitled to that credit.

 

The direct debit system takes some of that credit from you by taking monthly payments before you actually have to pay. You have to find that money earlier than you otherwise have i.e. in advance. You have to finance it. You may have the money under the mattress and it then costs you nothing to finance it. You may have to take the money out of savings and lose interest. You may be paying high interest on a credit card account and not pay as much off to cover the direct debit and this costs a lot.

 

If as is always the case the winter bill is very high you will be paying for that high bill from the previous spring which is the time that utilities reassess the monthly payment. you build up credit in advance of the time thar the winter bill becomes due. That credit has to be financed by you and costs you.

 

Finally most direct debit plans are set to make sire that you do not run into arrears so more money is taken each month than is needed. This is a direct loan to the utility which you are financing and it costs you.

[hillards]

I'm going to step in now and ask that the discussion about paying in advance, or not, be ceased. This is my thread and you're going way off topic.

 

I've said what I needed to say on that issue and I'd like to get my thread back to my topic if you don't mind.

[indebtstudent]

To answer your question Hillards there is nothing to stop you telling whomever you wish about your experience. Banks tried to put such a clause into some of thier settlements and customers were advised to say they accepted the offer in regard to the complaint but that they would not consent to confidentiality unless there was some seperate payment may for this.

 

All I would say on the DD thing is a lot of people are in credit most of the time. There are also LOTS of people who are in A LOT of debt. Also savings rates are virtually nil, how much interest do you believe you would get?

 

As Hillards states this discussion shouldn't hi-jack the thread, lets start a seperate one and discuss it there.

[hillards]

Oooh - unexpected development.

 

The letter to the Ombudsman went off, reluctantly accepting their decision. They've responded to say they have contacted npower to inform them of this and I must let them know if nothing is done within 28 days.

 

I fully expect npower to make a total mess of it all and come up with something well short of what they are expected to do, especially when it comes to credits they promised that were never applied.

 

In the meantime, a chance meeting with the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, Ed Miliband, where I gave him a little bit of the tale of woe - and he asked me to send him further details.

 

I should explain that I know Ed in a professional capacity and have met him on several occasions before. This time it was unexpected and I got the chance for a little chat, which is unusual when he's on business.

 

I have said that I am unhappy with the Ombudsman's office and that it's much less than a slap on the wrist for npower and that I feel very much out of pocket on the sheer amount of time and effort that's gone into this. Lets see if bringing the matter to the attention of 'the man at the top' is going to get me anywhere...

[hillards]

Darn elections and political activity. That's obviously stopped any investigation via that route.

 

In the meantime, npower have written and have disputed a point I made. When they finally pulled their finger out and started talking to me, they gave a £25 credit via the key. I had to give the shop a code to key in, which they did, and I had £25 credit on the meter. However, this never showed on my account, so I queried it - they say:

 

"The credit of £25.00 applied to your meter key does not show on your account. To do this would be superfluous as this would appear as a credit to your bill, when when sent to you would appear as a debit from your bill, so cancelling each other out. This will only show as a credit to your meter and will have shown on the receipt you obtained when the credit was collected."

 

The right hand giveth and left taketh away? The way I see it, they gave me a £25 credit on the key, which got me some energy. They did not credit my account, so I retain the same amount of arrears. The amount of energy I used is taken into account in my bills, so I still have to pay for that energy and it will show on my paper account that I used X amount of units, with or without the £25 credit.

 

It's rubbish, the £25 of energy used is still 'to pay for' on my paper bill, and has been taken into account as they looked at the account recently.

 

They have now applied the credit imposed by the Ombudsman's office, and 'found' a further £30 credit that was supposed to have been applied, but was not. This time it's been taken off the bill, which sort of contradicts what they said about the previous one.

 

A further letter arrived this weekend. They claim they have now adjusted my balance and sent a message to the meter to remove the weekly 'debt recovery' amount. Yes, they've done that. I topped up the other day and it's no longer collecting that - but has left the debt amount still showing! That should have been set to zero, even though no debt it being recovered now.

 

And, they are sending a cheque for the overpayment currently showing on my account - a massive £30. At least I am not in debt to them any more, which is good. I'm still very disappointed in the outcome, 16 months of hassle and the Ombudsman does little more than slaps their wrist. It stinks.

[nottslad]

The Ombudsman aren't really there for slapping wrists hun, more for getting things sorted. npower will have had to pay a few hundred quid for the complaint reaching the ombudsman in the first place...

my suggestion? vote with your feet and get the PPM ripped out by your new energy supplier!

[hillards]

Maybe I should have sued in the first place? Going to the Ombudsman has just wasted even more time really. I'm not happy with the outcome but it's 'like it or lump it' by the sound of it.

 

So, I got a letter saying they had cleared my arrears through applying the credits, and were about to send a cheque for £30 overpayment. Then this mornings post arrived, a letter from npower to ask if we are enjoying using the pre-payment meter and telling us it's set to collect a fixed amount each week. That letter shows a balance of £322 owing now, double what it had been!

 

Yes, they've managed to apply the credit incorrectly, and increased, not decreased the arrears. Am I surprised...?

[nottslad]

because its so difficult to choose to credit or debit! Utter incompetence! If you accept the ombudsman decision, I think it means you kind of agree to not take legal action (thats the way the financial ombudsman work) not quite sure as dont deal with accounts at that stage

[indebtstudent]

I'm not sure nottslads post is correct, with the FOS it depends on the situation. EG my bro has a stayed case about bank charges, it does not prevent him going to the FOS on hardship grounds, but the FOS wouldn't rule on the same issue because its in court (well kinda).

 

However there is nothing to stop you putting on the FOS claim form that you intend to take action in court at a later date.

 

I've not had any dealins with the Energy Ombudsmen myself, the best evidence I've had is kinda anecdotal, the odd note on an account saying that the EO is kicking NPower's arse yet again. Usually its writing off balances for late or non-existant bills.

 

However personally I would draw some comfort from the fees aspect, although you did not feel you got proper redress if customers in a similar situation go to the EO they are going to have to spend a lot of money.

 

Finally you say your account is clear, good for you. You are now free to change supplier. Personally I would out of principle anyway because you've been treated so badly. Now you can either do a comparison to work out who is cheapest on PP or contact other companies asking to take it out.

 

You may even be able to get NPower to do the work before you bugger off...

[hillards]

Well... In the letter npower sent, to say they had complied with the Energy Ombudsman's decision, there is a line reading: "Although no further investigation will take place into issues already covered you may wish to persue a legal course of action which we will respond to in the appropriate way"

 

What do they mean by that I wonder? The Ombudsman's office say I must take their decision and leave it at that, nothing more would be done. I couldn't really find a legal course of action, other than to sue - but on what grounds? I don't think gross incompetence is a crime?

 

I have written to them and said I do not accept their explanation of the credit they didn't apply, but just sent to the key. As far as I can work it out, they 'gave me' £25 credit on the key. I put that in the meter and got £25 of energy before I had to top up again. However, that energy was then part of my next bill, which they calculated from meter readings, not the amount of money paid.If that £25 was never credited then it just put me £25 further into arrears...

 

I have told them I am reporting that back to the Ombudsman as I am not satisfied they have applied the credit to my account, they say they have not, in as many words.

 

I have also lodged a further complaint about the new letter stating I'm in arrears etc. See what they say about that.

 

I may ask them to change the meters, we had gas on card meter too, but that debt was paid off some time ago. I am talking to other suppliers and think I've come up with the best deal, it just needs a clear path to be able to change.

 

Are we sure the MD of npower isn't Roy Rogers of something like that?

[hillards]

And.... Letter from npower, they will be sending me a cheque for £25 as a 'resolution'. They've also apologised for the letter that showed the incorrect figure when they took the weekly debt recovery charge off.

 

They say to disregard the 'debt' screen on the meter. They say that npower does not use this for debt recovery purposes and if I choose another supplier, they will reset it.

 

As always, they ask me to call their 0845 number to discuss things further. I've told them on countless occasions that I will not do that as I'm on VM and it's a whopping 11p a minute plus a connection charge. From my mobile it's 25p a minute - saynoto0870 does not give an alternate number for the one I've been given

 

18 months this has taken but - result! All sorted, despite the bad feeling that still exists on a number of points that they've 'apologised' for. No assurance that this sort of catastrophe cannot happen to someone else.

 

Right - where's that email I got from my new choice of supplier...?

 

Just to finish things off - the community project I mentioned at the start has finally worked out and I'm actually getting paid again, from this month. I will write this experience up and offer it to the media, I don't know if they would want it as it's gone on so long and has been resolved. Maybe just to highlight the way these things happen and how long you can wait to get it sorted out? Anyone have any suggestions on a magazine who may be worth contacting? It would be nice to get a few bob extra for the story, after all the hassle.

 

I don't have any faith in the Ombudsman's office, they've not a great deal that I couldn't have done myself via the small claims court. I will update Ed Milliband, as long as he's back in office of course - I haven't heard any results at the time of typing this.

Edited May 6, 2010 by hillards