Rbs Have Admitted They Cant Find My Cca - Can I Stop Paying?

[Guest flubdub]

The letter is here;

 

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h79/rebeccagornall/001-1.jpg

 

What does this mean? Im either confused or excited! I cant work out which!!

Its for £5000.

Thanks

Edited November 21, 2008 by flubdub

[spamheed]

That's 1-0 to you.

 

They cannot provide you with a copy of the CCA, so the debt is unenforceable. however would you kindly continue to pay us - LOL

 

The end paragraph is rubbish, if they do not have the agreement then they do not have your permission to process your data, such authority would have been given on the signed CCA (which they don't have)

 

You can stop paying them - keep that letter VERY safe, they have conceded that they have nothing to prove your liability, but this doesn't mean that they won't sell the debt on.

[Guest flubdub]

Woohoo!! So should I write a letter saying that they CANNOT pass the info on to CRA's?

They reckon theyve sent us a cca for another loan we have with them, but its not ours - wrong account number and not right signature so Im guessing they dont actually have that one either or theyd have copied and pasted onto this one that they say they dont have, surely?

[Monty2007]

My understanding is that they WILL default you when you stop paying and they do have the right to process your data and will update the CRA. I wish this was not the case but it definitely is.

 

My advice would be to make them an offer for settlement of the loan and call their bluff. You can definitely get away with not paying it back and they will simply go through the process and may even sell it to a DCA, but they will continue to update your credit files and I have not seen a post yet on CAG where this has been successfully challenged. I have the same with Amex, no CCA but they have defaulted me and this still shows on my credit file 3 years later.

 

It depends on your personal circumstances what you chose to do next but im my view their last paragraph is correct.

[spamheed]

I would tend to keep each account completely separate.

 

They have failed to provide a CCA FOR THIS ACCOUNT only, they may well have a CCA for a different account, it may be a referencing error on their system which has caused them to send the incorrect information.

 

I wouldn't write to them unless they begin to demand monies from you

[Monty2007]

Woohoo!! So should I write a letter saying that they CANNOT pass the info on to CRA's?

They reckon theyve sent us a cca for another loan we have with them, but its not ours - wrong account number and not right signature so Im guessing they dont actually have that one either or theyd have copied and pasted onto this one that they say they dont have, surely?

 

If they have sent you another person's agreement then this is a breach of the data protection act and you should report them to the information commissioner.

[angel_1]

HIYA flubdub

 

what a result, but like monty says i feel it would be a good thing to send that information you got from another person to the information commissioner - i would also send copies of your letter to the info comm with copies of the info directly to the person so they in turn can complain

 

in this day and age, we are always told to keep our financial info safe and such a bank have made a mistake had it been received by a fraudster they could have started to build up a identity theft situation against the person whose info you received,

 

I would be very very cross and demand compensation from the bank so you will be helping the other person in some small way, in keeping their info safe and alerting them to the fact too

 

well thats what i would do of course your choice, but i think we must highlight these breaches when they occur, its important to do the right thing at all times

 

will subscribe and see for updates,

 

would it be possible for a full and final settlement offer, im not too sure what all that really entails yet, still learning but see what others think if this may get them off your back and off your credit file and remove all adverse comments too from your file if a senior manager confirms it with their proper signature and not a digital signature,

 

anyway have fun and good luck ciao maz

[Guest flubdub]

Monty - I already have done. They sent me a CCA that had someone elses signature on (but looked suspiciously like it COULD be mine if I wasnt going to look at it properly, it had my initial, and the surname was almost the same, mine is Fishwick, theirs was Fisher) They account number was not mine either.

Then they sent me a loan application form. Again, the signature wasnt mine, nor the same as the CCA's.

Then they send a Duty of Care checklist with a THIRD signature on!

Do they know what theyre doing?

[Guest flubdub]

I would ask for a F&F, but were not in a position to give anything right now. We barely have enough to live on.

Iv reported to OFT, FOS and Iv made copies of all the 'wrong' documents they sent me, written a letter, and put in an envelope to send to the Info Commisioner.

I thought when you signed a CCA, you were saying that they can pass anything on to the CRA's. How can they do this without a cca?

[Josie8]

I would ask for a F&F, but were not in a position to give anything right now. We barely have enough to live on.

Iv reported to OFT, FOS and Iv made copies of all the 'wrong' documents they sent me, written a letter, and put in an envelope to send to the Info Commisioner.

I thought when you signed a CCA, you were saying that they can pass anything on to the CRA's. How can they do this without a cca?

 

 

because its effectively an all creditors membersclub so they can blackball you if they want. The ICO is ineffectual. However might be worth reporting them to FOS as they admit to being in breach of s.77.

 

Only other alternative is to make application to court under DPA for order to remove CRA history.

[42man]

When was the loan taken out Flubdub ?

[Monty2007]

The absence of the credit agreement means that they cannot enforce the collection of the debt even in court; they are hoping that you simply continue to pay. Their right to process your data is different - I will try to explain from what I understand.

 

Firstly, the CRA's are hidden behind legislation that is confirmed by the Information Commissioner in that the accuracy (and liability) of their information lies with exclusively the creditors. You will see their standard replies all over this site and goes something along the lines that the OC can only make changes to the data on your credit files. The CRA's just receive large files of data but they will write to the creditor to check it when you dispute it with them. In most cases it is upheld.

 

In your case you are saying (as I did) that in the absence of an executed agreement (under the 1974 CCA) then they cannot prove that you granted permission for them to process your data. Again they will claim that you received the cash loan (which can be verified through their banking records) and that you have maintained payments to them (again can be verified by bank records). Hence they are legitimately updating your payment information in respect of your payment history. They have the right to do this, irrespective of being able to produce an agreement.

 

The only way to potentially stop them is through legal action on the basis that you (could) claim that the loan is fully paid up and they are demanding further payment and have defaulted you incorrectly and the corresponding CRA records are incorrect. This opens up a can of worms as you can imagine.

 

Given your earlier post I would personally stop payments and let them know that the account is in dispute. Reporting them to the Information Commissioners Office will also let them no that you are no muppett and they may throw in the towel. Be prepared through for a default and negative maks on your credit files, you may want to challenge this in court later.

 

I am sure there are some mods who can add here;

[Guest flubdub]

It is my partners before we got together, about three years ago I think.

[42man]

You could send this to them.....this was used by another learned cagger against the RBS...

 

Dear xxxx,

 

Thank you for your letter dated xxxx, however I find it difficult to believe that you have mislaid such an important document as the copy of the credit agreement.

 

As I am sure you are aware; especially with the recent highlighted cases of 'lost' data, which seems to be a serious issue I was led to believe that you are legally obliged to keep copy agreements for a 6 year period. As I’m sure you are aware, this 6 year period starts from the closing of an account not the opening of one.

 

 

It would appear that you have failed in your obligations to comply with the various anti money laundering regulations in not keeping such documents. This, as I’m sure you are aware, is a very serious offence.

 

I now require the balance of this account to be returned to zero.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter a statutory notice under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies. Should you refuse to comply, you must within 14 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data. It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’, you must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you fail to respond within 14 days, I will expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore, you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take any action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following would apply:

• You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
  
• You may not add any further interest or charges to the account.
  
• You may not pass the account to any third party.
  
• You may not register any information in respect of the account with any of the credit reference agencies.
  
• You may not issue a default notice related to the account.
  

Please be aware, the CCA 1974 is very clear that a default can only be issued for breach of a valid, regulated agreement. As there is no agreement a default cannot be lawfully issued as no valid, regulated agreement has been breached.

I would ask that you review this account and respond favourably within 14 days of the date of this letter. Failure to do so will result in me reporting this matter to The Financial Crime Branch of HM Treasury and any other authorities as I see fit.

 

I look forward to your reply in due course.

 

Yours faithfully

[Guest flubdub]

Thanks Monty - very helpful!

 

42 Man - would that work? I doubt they will return the balance to 0 will they? Will this loan show as outstanding credit on my file, ie, a % of my allowed credit, or will it just disappear?

[42man]

It worked for the original poster !!

[42man]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/93884-wescot-rbofs-oh-dear-2.html#post935411

[Guest flubdub]

Was the default removed? Iv read the thread but think I missed something.

[42man]

I don't think the default was in the above case BUT you might have to take it to court...

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/115280-useful-information.html

[Monty2007]

I don't think the default was in the above case BUT you might have to take it to court...

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/115280-useful-information.html

 

That is my view. It would need to be either a case involving charges or one in respect of their right to process your data in the absence of a valid CCA. I think you have a better chance with the former and include the fact that they don't have a CCA as part of your defence.

[Guest flubdub]

Ok, I have a few things going with RBS, I am claiming hardship for bank charges. We need them desperately.

 

I am claiming PPI back for the loan that they cannot provide the CCA for?

Have I got no hope of claiming this back now as they cant prove the debts mine?

 

I complained about the bish bash way they gave my partner three loans which all totalled £5000 (again, the loan they cant provide the cca for).

 

Here is the letter I recieved back.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h79/rebeccagornall/002.jpg

 

And here is my response.

D*******

6 *********

****

Lancs

PR* ***

 

21st November, 2008

 

Case Reference Number:********

Dear Mrs McGillivray,

I write to you in response to the letter received from you on 20th November, stating that you disagree with my allegations of mis-selling.

 

Firstly, how you can say that by lending somebody so much money they are left with MINUS £56 a week, is responsible, I have no idea, and can only presume your “stringent screening processes” are flawed, however, I expected that response from you, and got it accordingly.

 

Secondly, you state in your letter that you have provided me with my CCA for this account. You have done no such thing, and I have a letter from yourselves to back this up.

You also say in your letter that the paragraph above my signature stipulates that the agreement should only be signed if the person wishes to be bound by the terms and conditions of the credit agreement. You cannot prove that I signed any such agreement.

 

When I wrote to you regarding irresponsible lending, it was for loan account number ********, as you will know, this is the loan that comes to £5000 when all three of the smaller loans have been added together, and I stated this in my letter to you.

This morning I received a letter from RBS saying, amongst other things, (and I quote);

“We regret to advise that the loan agreement for loan number ******* has been misfiled and despite searching our records we have been unable to locate it.”

 

 

You say in your letter “I hope my letter assures you that a full assessment would have been made.”

 

No, your letter does not assure me in any way regarding the banks practices.

 

 

“Neither of these issues [financial hardship charge reclaiming] affects the requirement or you to make an arrangement to repay the outstanding debt to the Bank….”

 

You are correct, they do not affect the requirement to repay the alleged debt, however, you have committed an offence by not complying with either of my requests under Section 77(1) of the Consumer Credit Act for my agreements. Therefore under Section 77 (4) of the Consumer Credit Act, you cannot enforce repayment.

 

 

Regards,

D**** ******

 

What do you think? Im not actually hoping to get anywhere really, I just wanted to log a complaint, but after todays letter, I feel like just getting one last dig in there!

Anyone got any other suggestions of things to add? Like "now bugger off you slimy bunch of whatchamacallits!!!"

 

:D:D

Edited November 21, 2008 by flubdub

[noomill060]

flubdub- you've left your name in that letter!!

[noomill060]

Oh, hang on, no you havent.

 

Doh!

[Guest flubdub]

Thanks anyway.

It wouldnt be my name anyway, Im writing on behalf of my partner.

[Guest flubdub]

bumpety