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    • I'm trying to understand it all but I certainly tend to agree with my colleague @dx100uk that it looks as if you may have been taken for a ride. You found an advertisement for a bag on an online sales site. Instead of going through the established procedure of that site, which presumably allows them to recover a commission from the seller you started dealing directly with the seller who is an unknown person to you and of course that allowed the seller to avoid paying the commission. At whose suggestion was it that you went off-site? You then pay by PayPal but instead of logging it with PayPal as a payment for a purchased item, you tell PayPal that it was actually simply a gift or transaction between friends and family. This also allowed the seller to avoid paying a PayPal fee on the money. At whose suggestion was it that you paid in this way?       I don't say that you definitely have been scammed, but it doesn't look very good. This is how it might have happened: after you agreed to take the transaction off-site, so you lost the protection of the established system – and the seller avoided the commission and also avoided the sales site knowing that they had sold their item, you then agreed to pay the seller some money – but not for a purchase – simply as a gift. This has two consequences. Firstly, the seller avoids a PayPal fee and secondly, because PayPal has been misled as to the purpose of the payment, you lose the protection of PayPal if it turns out that you've been scammed or there is some other problem with the transaction. The seller then apparently sent you the parcel and they sent you pictures of a package with your address on it. Separately they sent you a Hermes tracking number – but there is no evidence that the package was actually posted to your address. The seller might simply have taken a picture with your address and sent that to you by way of reassurance – and then changed the label and posted the parcel to themselves but sent you a tracking number which is inaccessible to you and in respect of which you will be prevented from getting any information. All you've seen is a parcel with your address on it. All you've been given is a tracking number which satisfied you for a while until the parcel did not arrive and then when you started to make enquiries, you found that you were unable to access any details referring to the tracking number. Of course the tracking number says that the item was delivered – because maybe it was – but in that case it was delivered to the address on the parcel which might have been the seller's own address – or the address of a friend. I don't want to say that this is definitely how it happened, but it is a plausible scenario. Of course Hermes is an awful lot of parcels – but on the other hand I expect that most of the parcel is that going to Hermes hands are delivered successfully. We only get the bad stories on this forum. I can imagine that Hermes rate of successful deliveries is better than 97% because otherwise people wouldn't simply just hate them, they would go out of business.   We can help you bring a complaint against Hermes if you want. However, on the basis of what you say, the odds are stacked against you but it would be useful to try and find out the address which was associated with tracking number. As far as your apparent willingness to travel hundred and 50 miles to ask for your money back, don't bother. If you did actually go there, are you sure that the seller actually lives at the address that you have been given? What evidence do you have that? Of course if you found that the seller didn't reside at that address then it is slamdunk that you have been scammed. But then what are you going to do? You can try to inform the police but of course it won't get you anywhere. You can inform the sales website – but they will say that you brought it on yourself because you agreed to go off-site. You can inform PayPal – that they will say that because you sent the money which was calculated to avoid their fees, you have lost the protection. If you travelled the 150 miles and found that the seller did reside at that address, do you really think that they are going to hand your money over to you? If they are acting dishonestly then they will simply say that it is nothing to do with them, that they addressed it all correctly and they don't understand what has happened and that this is simply Hermes up to their old tricks. What are you going to do? You simply risk getting into a very nasty argument and depending on how bad it went, you might even find that the police are called and I'm afraid that they would be looking at you – not the seller. Maybe you can answer the questions that I've post above as to who it is who initiated the various ways of doing business.    
    • The legal campaign's going well then. The recount in Wisconsin gave Trump more votes but Biden even more, at a cost of $3m. And a donor to the organisation bringing the failed cases is suing to get his $2.5m back.   https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/28/joe-biden-gains-votes-in-wisconsin-county-after-trump-ordered-recount
    • Yes Unicorn feed tax again, can't sue the keeper for more than the Original Charge, so any additional Debt Collection fees aka the £60 they add is abuse,iof process as per HHJ Harvey at Lewes county Court What lookedinfroinfo is indicating is that the main signage on entry and dotted around is merely an " Invitation to Treat", not the offer, the Offer and Acceptance occurs at the payment machine, so wording there is key.
    • Hello and welcome to CAG.   People will be along later to advise you, please bear with us until they're able to get here.   In the meantime, I suggest you edit your attachment because you've left your name on it. Please check it carefully and remove anything that can identify you.   HB
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Lowell/HFO claimform - old barclaycard debt **WON***


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just a thought though, doesn't actually seem fair that they can on other parties defence, be informed of their inaccuracies, then get the oppotunity to change it, how often can they do this, as in, IF, flaws are found on amendment, can they apply again for another amendment? Is it not just a case of them "changing their story" to suit their claim?

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I look forward to seeing their amended statement of truth. When they served me with an amended statement, they removed all the mistakes they'd made before but put a whole lot of new ones in. They're not terribly clever.

“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

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Right - I've had a quick think - the N244 from TR is in part a reply to your CPR Pt 18 - you asked them on what basis they brought the claim - they're now amending it to plead the correct claimant - but they were always going to do that - they did that in the claim against me where they were ultimately struck out.

 

What they are applying to strike out is your original - i.e. the holding defence not the amended defence.

 

So to be perfectly honest the timing of the service of any draft amended defence is academic.

 

In terms of a strike out application - they have to establish that you don't have a defence - basically what you do is work through all the points that say you have

 

I've got a similar case next week

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/191754-arrow-global-ignm.html

Edited by I've got no money

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I am not a Practising Lawyer. My comments are my opinion only. You should not rely upon those comments and should always take your own professional advice from a practising Solicitor or Barrister

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just a thought though, doesn't actually seem fair that they can on other parties defence, be informed of their inaccuracies, then get the oppotunity to change it, how often can they do this, as in, IF, flaws are found on amendment, can they apply again for another amendment? Is it not just a case of them "changing their story" to suit their claim?

 

No - there are only a couple of points - one is the fact that its' the wrong claimant - the other is how much they're claiming - don't forget that a claimant (or defendant) can always apply to amend a claim - even after a defence has been filed...

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I am not a Practising Lawyer. My comments are my opinion only. You should not rely upon those comments and should always take your own professional advice from a practising Solicitor or Barrister

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ah, consent is ok in the majority of cases

 

but i never show my hand to a DCA or DCAs solicitors, we all know how devious they can be and its point proven now as they have done exactly that, been devious, took your defence and then bunged in an app for SJ

 

 

I'm sorry PT but I don't agree with that all.

 

Its' as if you're suggesting that by not telling them about your amended defence until you've got permission you in some way prevent them applying for a strike out. That is I have to say wrong in both law and practice

 

The reality is that you have to tell them that you are want to amend - either by asking them OR when you make your application to the court for permission (and of course if you haven't asked them first you don't recover your £75 fee and you could potentially incur liability for the other sides costs - if the court directed a hearing of your application and the other side turned up and said that they would have agreed if you'd asked -but that is a slightly different issue).

 

If the Court deals with the application for permission without a hearing - they get your amended defence and then apply to strike out OR if the court directs a hearing on your application for permission they lodge an application to strike out and have it listed on the same date as your application for permission.

 

Either way they still make their application to strike out - and before doing so they have seen your amended defence in both cases.

Edited by I've got no money

If I've helped feel free to add to my reputation.

 

I am not a Practising Lawyer. My comments are my opinion only. You should not rely upon those comments and should always take your own professional advice from a practising Solicitor or Barrister

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I've just been re-reading the thread - the other thing of course is that even the amended defence is only a holding defence - because they haven't complied with CPR 31.14 requests.

 

Can I just check has the time for replying to the CPR requests expired - if it has - lets play them at their own game

 

Make an application on an N244 to the Court for an Order that they comply with the CPR 31.14 request and in the covering letter ask the court to list the application for the same date as their strike out.

 

In terms of what else you do - its' not till June - so you don't need to fiile anything in respect of the strike out yet...In fact tactically it wouldn't be sensible to file anything until about a week before - unless the order says that you should.

 

What I suggest is to file a a witness statement about a week before and possibly a skeleton a few days before

 

BUT don't panic...

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I am not a Practising Lawyer. My comments are my opinion only. You should not rely upon those comments and should always take your own professional advice from a practising Solicitor or Barrister

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Hi IGNM, see where you're coming from. In any case, I assume that both parties have the right to see any defence, and they also have the right to defend on the information supplied? So although you can hold back disclosure, the other side would've eventually had sight of it in any case, and then would still have appiled themselves for amendment. So they have probably taken the action sooner rather than later.

 

The short answer is yes - tho as I'm discovering the SJ tactic is one which an increasing number of creditors are going for

 

In Pank's case the amended defence didn't actually tell them much - because Pank doesn't have any docs yet...

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I am not a Practising Lawyer. My comments are my opinion only. You should not rely upon those comments and should always take your own professional advice from a practising Solicitor or Barrister

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I look forward to seeing their amended statement of truth. When they served me with an amended statement, they removed all the mistakes they'd made before but put a whole lot of new ones in. They're not terribly clever.

 

Yes - me too - I have to say that I don't find a threat of an SJ from TR at all threatening.

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I am not a Practising Lawyer. My comments are my opinion only. You should not rely upon those comments and should always take your own professional advice from a practising Solicitor or Barrister

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Great idea about the counter-N244 re non-conformity with CPR request. The move to strike seems highly vexatious given that TR know they haven't complied.

 

By asking to change the claimant to HFO Capital, are there any locus standii issues - a Cayman Islands offshore entity?

“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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Great idea about the counter-N244 re non-conformity with CPR request. The move to strike seems highly vexatious given that TR know they haven't complied.

 

By asking to change the claimant to HFO Capital, are there any locus standii issues - a Cayman Islands offshore entity?

 

I knew that this was gonna happen one day...I'm gonna have to check the rules on security for costs to see if the Cayman Islands are a convention country - if the're not then potentially you can seek an order that they pay money into court.

 

The other thought I've had is that HFO do this stuff with the wrong name all the time - they did it with my case and then when challenged amended the claim - I'm wondering if it might be possible to oppose their application to amend on the basis that they deliberately brought proceedings knowing that it was the wrong claimant...

 

I'd argue that using SJ where there is a CPR 31 request in existence is an abuse of process - there is lots and lots to say in the response to the SJ

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I am not a Practising Lawyer. My comments are my opinion only. You should not rely upon those comments and should always take your own professional advice from a practising Solicitor or Barrister

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Pank, I hope you're a little calmer now - please don't panic over this. It will get sorted.

“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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Getting a strike out application is frightening but don't forget that not only do they have a weak case but this is TR...anyway I hope that you're a bit calmer now

If I've helped feel free to add to my reputation.

 

I am not a Practising Lawyer. My comments are my opinion only. You should not rely upon those comments and should always take your own professional advice from a practising Solicitor or Barrister

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Hold steady there Pank. They ARE snakes but the guidance you are getting seems sound. There may be a few conflicting statements but don't let them worry you as it clears the head I think. Remember TS at wherever they are based have a team of officers working on HFO full time - taht's how bad they are. You'll lick 'em. Just stand firm.

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Hold steady there Pank. They ARE snakes but the guidance you are getting seems sound. There may be a few conflicting statements but don't let them worry you as it clears the head I think. Remember TS at wherever they are based have a team of officers working on HFO full time - taht's how bad they are. You'll lick 'em. Just stand firm.

 

The other thing not to forget is that TR only actually have one real Solicitor...and he appears to have his finger in that many pies...

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I am not a Practising Lawyer. My comments are my opinion only. You should not rely upon those comments and should always take your own professional advice from a practising Solicitor or Barrister

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I'm sorry PT but I don't agree with that all.

 

Its' as if you're suggesting that by not telling them about your amended defence until you've got permission you in some way prevent them applying for a strike out. That is I have to say wrong in both law and practice

 

The reality is that you have to tell them that you are want to amend - either by asking them OR when you make your application to the court for permission (and of course if you haven't asked them first you don't recover your £75 fee and you could potentially incur liability for the other sides costs - if the court directed a hearing of your application and the other side turned up and said that they would have agreed if you'd asked -but that is a slightly different issue).

 

If the Court deals with the application for permission without a hearing - they get your amended defence and then apply to strike out OR if the court directs a hearing on your application for permission they lodge an application to strike out and have it listed on the same date as your application for permission.

 

Either way they still make their application to strike out - and before doing so they have seen your amended defence in both cases.

WHOA hold on there a minute

 

What i was saying and if i may say so, Blackstone's Civil Practice seems to agree here, is that the correct approach is to make an application on notice if the parties are not in agreement. so by asking for consent you tell them what you intend to argue

 

As i said earlier you are dealing with the lowest of low here, rattlesnakes, show them your hand early and they will use it against you FACT!!! seen it happen time and time again

 

where is the op left now? with a SJ application, no consent to amend defence , personally id have gone for an application to amend full stop

 

but there we go, if we all agreed then there would never be need for court action or lawyers would there

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WHOA hold on there a minute

 

What i was saying and if i may say so, Blackstone's Civil Practice seems to agree here, is that the correct approach is to make an application on notice if the parties are not in agreement. so by asking for consent you tell them what you intend to argue

 

As i said earlier you are dealing with the lowest of low here, rattlesnakes, show them your hand early and they will use it against you FACT!!! seen it happen time and time again

 

where is the op left now? with a SJ application, no consent to amend defence , personally id have gone for an application to amend full stop

 

but there we go, if we all agreed then there would never be need for court action or lawyers would there

 

The reference to Blackstones is where the parties are not in agreement - i.e. you've asked and they've said no.

 

The OP is in exactly the same position as she would have been had she applied to the court and got permission to amend - they would have still have applied to strike out...exactly the same arguments will be advanced as if permission to amend had been given.

 

They are entitled to receive the amended defence and are entitled to consider it and to make a decision as to whether they want to apply to strike out - its' not a case of telling them what your case is - they are entitled to know it - you could argue that this way its' saved the OP a £75 fee - as she can apply for permission to amend at the strike out hearing - which she can do through her skeleton...without payment of a fee

 

The fact that you may or may not have got permission to amend does not in any way impact upon the ability

of the Claimant to apply to strike out

Edited by I've got no money

If I've helped feel free to add to my reputation.

 

I am not a Practising Lawyer. My comments are my opinion only. You should not rely upon those comments and should always take your own professional advice from a practising Solicitor or Barrister

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I`d say Pank is in the same position she was in before the submission of the Amended defence.

 

I got a SJ application from EGG after my 1st weak defence went in. I did request an amended defence and this was denied by the court- due to myself not being able to attend the SJ Hearing- a decision to refuse the Amended defence was made in my absence along with a refusal to submit a counterclaim!! :( I think it`s all about shredding their POC in the fiorst instance with your initial defence!!

 

IGNM & pt are both being great great help i`d say Pank;)

Any feeling that I`ve helped you today- then add to my reputation and click those scales!

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Right you all, I am a bit calmer now.

Low and behold I have also this morning received all ther paper work from Thurnbull this morning.

I have uploaded it here the skeleon and the witness statement.

 

Apart from this they have enclosed the Barclaycard application form with is not still possible to properly read. The copies of the statements again some with the wrong details on.

 

I have not had the courtesy of a reply regarding my amended defence. Should I resend it again or should I just now apply to the court so have it amended?

Right you all, thank you for your thoughts, and I welcome thoughts of what I should do now?

 

Cheers

Skeleton and witness.pdf

Edited by Pank
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This is a quick post before I go to court for my hearing.

 

In terms of the amended defence what I suggest we do is that we prepare you a skeleton argument and in paragraph 1 we ask for permission to amend the defence - so at this precise moment you don't need to do anything about it. You could make an application to amend bUT there is a fee (unless you're exempt) - if you do it through the skeleton it's free.

If I've helped feel free to add to my reputation.

 

I am not a Practising Lawyer. My comments are my opinion only. You should not rely upon those comments and should always take your own professional advice from a practising Solicitor or Barrister

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I have amended the attachment. Cheers, I never seem to be able to black things out properly...... story of my life.......

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I had got to the last stage of claiming my monies back for an very old account older then six years.

Anyway, they sent me a letter agreeong to pay me £500 something. They told me that they had passed this credit on to the agency dealing with my account??!!

Has anyone lese had this? This account was paid and closed 4-5 years ago. There is no agency or third party envolved..

What should I do? Carry on through the courts?

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Just having a look at this. Interesting PDF, lots of holes to pick...

 

Any chance of seeing the missing pages? They could be useful.

“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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  • dx100uk changed the title to Lowell/HFO claimform - old barclaycard debt **WON***
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