HSBC problem

[johnnymitch]

Also, have a read again of the advice you got from pete and jo ...... it is still very relevant ..............

[Dougy79]

Thanks although previously they said to me that it wasn't any court action pending. However I threatened to take them to court with the LBA letter and their stance was, they said they would wait and see the outcome of the courtcase (general one for bank charges) then conclude the matter after that.

[Dougy79]

Ok update on this, I sent the collections dpet a copy of the letter I recieved from the quality service team, but I don't recieve anymore from them, but another letter from the quality service team which I have pasted below.

 

Just a few things to note-all the spelling and grammatical errors are actually theirs! and also they say they refuse x/month where as actually that was what I'm paying them per week.

 

Any advice on what to do/how to reply would be appreciated. I'm not sure if everything they say is 100% true and would like to better gauge my position.

 

Thanks

 

Dear....

Whilst I appreciate that you currently have a dispute on your account with regards to your accounts, please note that we still expect you to run your accounts within the agreeds terms and conditions. If this does not happen then HSBC are entitled to pass your accounts onto a debt recovery agency.

As you have stated that you believe that are charges are unfair, we have deemed this to be a legal challenge, and as such have contacted the relevant department to deal with this. As you are aware there is currently an on-going court case with regards to the legality of bank charges. HSBC are therefore placing all cases on hold whereby a customer is stating that they do not feel that our charges are fair. When the court case has concluded HSBC will act accordingly. However, HSBC still require you to pay back any outstanding balance on the account. It is therefore not acceptable for customer’s to not pay a debit balance on the account and HSBC will follow our collection procedures if this happens.

Given the amount of your outstanding balance on the account, we are unable to accept XX/month as repayment. As your account has been placed on final demand we will require you to contact us immediately to make a repayment offer.

Section 13.6 states that we will not pass any information to the credit reference agencies if your account is in dispute. However, as there is currently a hold on bank charges following the outcome of the court case, customers are unable to place a dispute on the account for this reason. Therefore, any information that we may place at credit reference agency will not contradict the banking code.

This also means we are fully entitled to add charges and interest onto your account, and we may continue to do so whilst your account is in breech of the agreed terms.

~The charges applied to your account have all been applied correctly and in line with the bank’s published tariff. These charges are clearly outlined. Upon signing for your account you singed to say that you agreed to these terms and as such HSBC do expect our customer’s to run their accounts accordingly.

If you have any quieries...........

[Castlebest]

Oh dear the little fibbers

 

Any advice on what to do/how to reply would be appreciated. I'm not sure if everything they say is 100% true and would like to better gauge my position.

 

Dear....

 

Whilst I appreciate that you currently have a dispute on your account with regards to your accounts, please note that we still expect you to run your accounts within the agreeds terms and conditions. If this does not happen then HSBC are entitled to pass your accounts onto a debt recovery agency.

The banking code and the OFT's guidelines on debt collection require them to resolve any dispute before any debt recovery measures are taken by the bank .

 

As you have stated that you believe that are charges are unfair, we have deemed this to be a legal challenge, and as such have contacted the relevant department to deal with this. As you are aware there is currently an on-going court case with regards to the legality of bank charges. HSBC are therefore placing all cases on hold whereby a customer is stating that they do not feel that our charges are fair. When the court case has concluded HSBC will act accordingly. However, HSBC still require you to pay back any outstanding balance on the account. It is therefore not acceptable for customer’s to not pay a debit balance on the account and HSBC will follow our collection procedures if this happens.

The banking code and the OFT's guidelines on debt collection require them to resolve any dispute before any debt recovery measures are taken by the bank .

 

Given the amount of your outstanding balance on the account, we are unable to accept XX/month as repayment. As your account has been placed on final demand we will require you to contact us immediately to make a repayment offer.

As an act of good faith you are making payments to the bank. I would be inclined to tell them that as soon as the balance of the account reaches the same level as the unlawful charges they have deducted from you this will stop until the conclusion of the test case in accordance with their own attitude to this situation.

 

Section 13.6 states that we will not pass any information to the credit reference agencies if your account is in dispute. However, as there is currently a hold on bank charges (pardon?... tell them to stop charging you then!!) following the outcome of the court case, customers are unable to place a dispute on the account for this reason (why? if you have a legitimate complaint you have to dispute it). Therefore, any information that we may place at credit reference agency will not contradict the banking code.

This is pure rubbish and a direct contravention of the banking code.

 

This also means we are fully entitled to add charges and interest onto your account, and we may continue to do so whilst your account is in breech of the agreed terms.

Hang on you just said there was currently a hold on bank charges...

 

~The charges applied to your account have all been applied correctly and in line with the bank’s published tariff. These charges are clearly outlined. Upon signing for your account you singed to say that you agreed to these terms and as such HSBC do expect our customer’s to run their accounts accordingly.

And as a customer of a once respected banking organisation you expect to be treated within the consumer regulations not be systematically milked for additional funds.

 

If you have any quieries...........

 

I do hope thats given you a few ideas regarding a reply to this frankly lame letter

 

pete

[johnnymitch]

Ah, you've beat me to it again pete , I,ve just spent a age typing this up -laffin - so I'll post it for what it's worth .....

Whilst I appreciate that you currently have a dispute on your account with regards to your accounts, please note that we still expect you to run your accounts within the agreeds terms and conditions. If this does not happen then HSBC are entitled to pass your accounts onto a debt recovery agency.

As you have stated that you believe that are charges are unfair, we have deemed this to be a legal challenge, and as such have contacted the relevant department to deal with this.

If you have deemed this as a legal challenge it means you recognise that the account is in dispute!

As you are aware there is currently an on-going court case with regards to the legality of bank charges. HSBC are therefore placing all cases on hold whereby a customer is stating that they do not feel that our charges are fair. When the court case has concluded HSBC will act accordingly. However, HSBC still require you to pay back any outstanding balance on the account. It is therefore not acceptable for customer's to not pay a debit balance on the account and HSBC will follow our collection procedures if this happens.

If the account is in dispute you cannot pursue collection procedures !

Given the amount of your outstanding balance on the account, we are unable to accept XX/month as repayment. As your account has been placed on final demand we will require you to contact us immediately to make a repayment offer.

I have made you an offer of XX.XX which ,if you had taken the trouble to check, is weekly - not monthly and should therefore be more than acceptable to you . I await your concurrence on this .

 

Section 13.6 states that we will not pass any information to the credit reference agencies if your account is in dispute. However, as there is currently a hold on bank charges following the outcome of the court case, customers are unable to place a dispute on the account for this reason. Therefore, any information that we may place at credit reference agency will not contradict the banking code.

Your logic on this is unacceptable. You are using the OFT Test Case to say that customers may not dispute their accounts, but claiming that you have every right to place potentially inaccurate information with a Credit Agency. I have to advise you that I am sending a copy of your letter to FOS, FSA and OFT as I consider you are breaching the terms of the waiver and attempting to mislead me with inaccurate interpretations of the facts.

This also means we are fully entitled to add charges and interest onto your account, and we may continue to do so whilst your account is in breech of the agreed terms.

~The charges applied to your account have all been applied correctly and in line with the bank's published tariff. These charges are clearly outlined. Upon signing for your account you singed to say that you agreed to these terms and as such HSBC do expect our customer's to run their accounts accordingly.

And as customers we expect to be treated fairly under the FSA’s TCF initiative

 

PS - I'd welcome your thoughts , if any pete ...... :grin:

[Castlebest]

We said the same things Johnny, in our own ways I think Dougy will be able to pick out the bits from both of out posts to put together a reply to that pile of crrrrrr.... he has been sent I think it might be a good move to send a copy of this letter to the FOS to see what they make of these lies

 

pete

[johnnymitch]

Thanks pete ,

 

That was my first thought , they shouldn't get away with blatantly lying to customers, twisting the facts to suit themselves. They really are treating customers with more contempt than ever .. and it's time FSA & FOS started doing what they're supposed to be doing - protecting complainants .......

 

There you go guys , rant over for tonight ....

[Dougy79]

Thanks guys, all of that was extremely helpful.

 

There's a lot of very helpful information there

 

I would like to include a lot of these points in my repost to HSBC, but just so my letter is solid and based on facts, would it be possible to get some references to the banking codes and OFT guidelines to the points that you make on here?

 

Thanks for all your help again, it's really appreciated.

[Castlebest]

Hiya Dougy, not had a chance to scan through the banking code and the OFT's guide to debt collection to pull out the sections that apply but here are the links to the full documents.

 

http://www.bankingcode.org.uk/pdfdocs/PERSONAL_CODE_2008.PDF

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/consumer_credit/oft664.pdf

 

I will try to scan through them tomorrow but if I don't get a chance at least you have the source

 

pete

[Dougy79]

Thanks again.

 

Any other advice is appreciated too.

 

I just hope that I don't get letters from any debt collection agency.

[Dougy79]

Oh dear, not sure wht I'm doing wrong here, but I'm having trouble finding the relevant information. If you get any spare time a pointer or two would be great.

 

Thanks.

[johnnymitch]

Hi Dougy ,

 

Pete has given you a couple of great leads there - it's worth scanning through and picking the bits you think are relevant .......

 

As regards getting anything from a Debt Collector it will probably be Metropolitan Collection Services (MCS) who are HSBC's in -house collection department and not really an agency at all .... so I wouldn't worry too much about that .

[Dougy79]

Ok so no big blokes with baseball bats are likely to be coming round then?

 

I have tried reading through the banking code document,. but I'm still a bit lost. But I did find some good ones on the other link, most notably

 

not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or

disputed debt."

 

And possibly 2.4B"

falsely implying or stating that action can or will be taken when it legally

cannot"-which they threatened possible legal proceedings in one of the letters

Not sure if this is useful?

Edited February 9, 2009 by Dougy79
re-formattting

[Dougy79]

Just to update you, I sent the below letter, and the the below response.

 

I'm now really scared about the debt collection agency-how to deal with them and also wondering whether or not what HSBC have done is true and by the book.

 

any advice really appreciated. Getting worried now that i'll get some big guy knocking at the door.

 

 

" Account Number xxxxxxxxxx in Dispute

 

Thank you for you letter of the xx/xx/xxxx

I will take the opportunity to clarify statements made in said letter.

 

 

“Whilst I appreciate that you currently have a dispute on your account with regards to your accounts, please note that we still expect you to run your accounts within the agreed terms and conditions. If this does not happen then HSBC are entitled to pass your accounts onto a debt recovery agency.”

 

This is a clear indication that you acknowledge that the account is in dispute.

 

”As you have stated that you believe that are charges are unfair, we have deemed this to be a legal challenge, and as such have contacted the relevant department to deal with this.”

 

That is correct

 

“As you are aware there is currently an on-going court case with regards to the legality of bank charges. HSBC are therefore placing all cases on hold whereby a customer is stating that they do not feel that our charges are fair”

 

This would be for the courts to decide, hence the court case

 

“When the court case has concluded HSBC will act accordingly. However, HSBC still require you to pay back any outstanding balance on the account. It is therefore not acceptable for customer’s to not pay a debit balance on the account and HSBC will follow our collection procedures if this happens.”

 

As the account is in dispute, which again you have acknowledged, there are things that you are not allowed to do, all as stipulated in my previous letter

 

”Given the amount of your outstanding balance on the account, we are unable to accept XX/month as repayment. As your account has been placed on final demand we will require you to contact us immediately to make a repayment offer.”

 

I must point out that the figure mentioned above was not what was actually offered. What was offered was £xx.xx Per Week not per Month

 

”Section 13.6 states that we will not pass any information to the credit reference agencies if your account is in dispute. However, as there is currently a hold on bank charges following the outcome of the court case, customers are unable to place a dispute on the account for this reason. Therefore, any information that we may place at credit reference agency will not contradict the banking code”

 

The question of the hold or more accurately the Stayed Court cases and the circumstance surrounding the FSA waiver has absolutely NO effect on whether any dispute can be overwritten.Or are you saying that no Dispute can exist, due to the hold on the Courts Cases, which is what you are suggesting?

 

This also means we are fully entitled to add charges and interest onto your account, and we may continue to do so whilst your account is in breech of the agreed terms.

 

This aligns again with the Section 13.6 of the Banking Code and again I ask are you denying that condition exists?

 

I hope to receive your full co-operation in this matter look forward to receiving you written reply within 14 days of this letter, in order that we can both move forward.

 

 

 

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Firstly, I would like to clarify that we are not in an active dispute, the FSA have agreed to put on hold charge complaints until the outcome of the court case has been decided and has not ruled that banks must suspend their normal collection proceedures. We cannot be in an active dispute while an external decision is made by an independent third party. We are in adherence with the banking code and if you have any written proof to the contrary please provide us with a copy instead of your own conclusions regaring this matter.

 

Your payment offer of £X per month or per week would not be acceptable due to the level of debt, we have asked you on numerous occasions to contact our financial guidance team to discuss what is acceptableto the bank and you have not made contact even after final demand was issued, we advised within that notice that if no acceptable agreement was reached within 28 days your account would be passed onto a debt collection agency.

 

As no agreement has been reachedthis has now been done and your credit file noted accordingly, if the court does not rule in the banks favour then any error in writing off the amount would be rectified. I would like to point out that according to the charges summary sent out for the last 6 years, £520 would be the amount you could possibly reclaim (I would have to check this it may be more now).

 

The amount of debt written off was £1403.86 and therefore was not all bank charges

 

Metropolitan debt collection agency will be in contact with you shortly to discuss a repayment plan regarding the debt.

 

If you have any quieries......etc

 

Regards"

[johnnymitch]

Hi dougy , welcome back thanks for the update ....

 

I'm now really scared about the debt collection agency-how to deal with them and also wondering whether or not what HSBC have done is true and by the book.

 

First of all , don't worry about MCS , as I said in # 37 -they are not a proper Debt Collection Agency ,they are only HSBCs in -house collection dept ......... they're trying to scare you ..... don't let them away with it ..

 

They have done everything wrong in this case and are arrogant enough to think they can get away with it .......

They have as you say ,admitted that this account is in dispute (keep that admission somewhere safe , dougy , you may need it later, if it comes to a court appearance). As the account is in dispute , they are not allowed to transfer it to a third party , so I would write to MCS and ask them to hand it back to HSBC (along the corridor - they use the same premises and databases ..... )

 

Most of what they are writing is such utter rubbish dougy that it's laughable ...... if it wasn't so serious , putting a note on your credit file is also not on when an account is in dispute ..... .

There is a letter around somewhere (by Bankfodder, I think) , to warn Credit Agencies that the account is in dispute and that they should not pass on any erroneous credit info to other agencies / persons ......... I can't find it at the moment though ..

 

One thing at a time though , and don't worry about some big guy knocking at your door - they can't do that without going to court ...... and they won't do that - because you have a counter-claim waiting there .....

 

Also , have a look at the link here , particularly paras 2.8 onward ....

 

OFT Debt Collection Guidance

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/consumer_credit/oft664.pdf

Hopefully you'll get some more advice from others , but don't worry dougy , it's not as bad as it sounds , they're trying to scare you ....

 

 

...

Edited March 11, 2009 by johnnymitch

[johnnymitch]

Just one point dougy - have you got a claim 'stayed ' in court ..... ? I've just realised you haven't said if you followed through with that ...

[Dougy79]

Thanks for the response.

 

I haven't got a stayed claim, but I did the action up to that point. I threatened to put the claim to the courts, but they said that they would handle it once the court settlement had finished.

 

I'm not sure this makes a difference (???), because this was their recommended choice of action and to be accomodating I have adhered to this mediation process.

 

I'm still not sure how to respond to this because they seem to deny any of my claims.

[johnnymitch]

Oh ,dougy , they would say that to deter you from putting your claim to court ...... it is really important that you lodge it with the court for the following reasons :

 

Why you should start claim (courtesy of Mr Lex)

 

 

Remember, you need to get your claim to court

 

When you start to send off your letters, they will probably try to tell you you can't claim because the case's are 'stayed' It is important that you ignore this and carry on, only the courts can put a 'stay' on your claim

 

Although the banks have a ongoing test case with OFT there are a number of reasons why you should start to claim at court now:

 

Any older charges (coming up to 6 years) could be lost if you wait for the OFT case to end. Start your claim now and those charges are protected

 

(you are supposed to be protected by the 'waiver', we now know you are not

When the stays are finally lifted, you will be one of the first in the queue to get paid

 

Once the courts are involved, you get the 8% interest

 

While the banks are protected by the stays, we the consumer, have no such protection and charges continue to mount up

 

For some people this may mean going into default. If it is clear that the default was made in respect of charges and that it was lodged after a charges claim was begun then these users have a really excellent chance of having it removed

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o.uk/forum/data-protection-default-issues/164871-castlebests-default-removal.html#post1772646

 

So, dougy it was hugely in their interests to head you off from submitting your claim to court . But it's not too late , although if they've defaulted you , they've done it before your claim was lodged , which makes it more difficult to remove ....

But for the other ,reasons stated you should set the ball rolling - if you sent them an LBA don't bother with another one .... it told them you'd take court action if you didn't get your money back ... and if your claim is in court soon they can't take court action to recover money from you without coming up against your counter -claim - that's how important it is and why they didn't want you taking your claim to court ........ they really are a despicable shower .......

Don't 'accommodate' them any longer dougy - go get 'em !

[Dougy79]

Thanks Johnny.

 

I actually was told that by an independent person, but I will check that out with them.

 

How would any of you respond to the letter and when the debt collection agency contacts me? Do I have to agree to what they want? Or have I still got grounds to fight this?

 

I'm suppossing If I tell them to send the debt back to HSBC they probably won't..

[johnnymitch]

Try this one dougy - amended to suit your circumstances .........

Account number: XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

I must admit that I am rather bemused as to why this account has been passed to yourselves, as it is in dispute with the **original/DCA** and has been since (DATE) . Not only is this a breach of OFT collection guidelines, but also in breach of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and Data Protection Act 1998

As **original/DCA** are now in default of my Consumer Credit Act request, OFT Collection Guidelines, Subject Access request and have also breached s10 Data Protection Act request , I consider this account to be in SERIOUS DISPUTE.

As you are aware while my Consumer Credit Act request remains in default enforcement action is NOT permitted, under s127 this constitutes a complete defence at law.

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

Now I would respectfully suggest that this account is returned to the **original/DCA** for resolution of these defaults and breaches, as **New DCA** cannot lawfully pursue any enforcement activities.

If **New DCA** chooses to ignore my dispute and attempt enforcement, I will initiate legal action and file reports with the appropriate authorities, including, but not limited to, Trading Standards, Office of Fair Trading, Information Commissioners Office, Financial Ombudsman Service and possible court action.

After taking advice, I am of the opinion that any continued pursuit is in violation of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40 as well as breaching a number of the OFT Collection Guidelines

Also be advised that I will only communicate with you in writing.

Furthermore, should it be your intention to arrange a “doorstep call”, please be advised that under OFT rules, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have no wish to make an appointment with you.

There is only an implied license under English Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives to visit me at my property and if you do so, then you will be liable to damages for a tort of trespass and action will be taken, including but not limited to, police attendance.

I hope that this will not be necessary and an acceptable solution can be accomplished.

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

Yours faithfully

[Dougy79]

Wow thanks Johnny that letter looks great. Hopefully they won't call me up otherwise that could be a mouthful

 

Would you respond to HSBC too? Or provide them with the same letter?

[johnnymitch]

Happy to help dougy . If they call you up just refuse to answer their security questions , they can't talk to you then , because they're not sure if they've got the right person .......

 

Or tell them in writing that you will only correspond by letter......there's a template letter if you want to use it ........

[johnnymitch]

Would you respond to HSBC too? Or provide them with the same letter?

 

As MCS are HSBC I wouldn't think it'll make much difference , but you could send a copy just to be sure they don't play the dumb card ....

[Dougy79]

Thanks Johnny.

 

I have a couple of other stupid questions also.

 

What do the * denote in the letter?

 

And I made a few of these points beforehand to HSBC and as you can see they deny it. They are basically saying that you cannot freeze the entire account because of a legal dispute of the nature of unlawful bank charges. When I read the waiver, it does say in there somewhere that they can still demand payment of monies, I will have to check what it does say.

 

Personally speaking, I can't understand how they can even think about demanding a sum which is in dispute, maybe they have a case for the outstanding balance aside from this, I'm not sure??

[johnnymitch]

Hi Dougy ,

 

The ** just mean delete /insert whichever is applicable i.e.put in MCS or HSBC as applicable .....

 

As for the other matter, I think that is their way of trying a cop-out - putting their twisted interpretation of the waiver to suit themselves . Of course that is purely my opinion , dougy .......

 

My understanding is , that , if an account is 'In Dispute' (active or otherwise ) , then they cannot take action to collect until the dispute is settled . For goodness sake , they're already getting carte blanche to carry on with their heinous charges during the court case , what more do they want ?.....

 

But you can nip all this in the bud dougy , by getting your claim into court ASAP ......... then they can't take you to court without running into your counter-claim .......