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ladymoonray

ladymoonray v Paragon Personal Finance

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Oh well, in for a penny, in for a pound.

 

I'm going to have a go at getting back the admin fees (£120) and early redemption penalty (£1,313.70) on my previous remortgage with Paragon. I'm sending the preliminary request for payment off today. Wish me luck everyone, I'm a bit less convinced I'm going to succeed here than against my bank and credit card companies!

 

ladymoonray

 

Nationwide: £2443. Request for payment 4 July 2006. LBA 19 July 2006

Co-operative Bank Visa: £351. Request for payment 22 June, LBA 6 July 2006

MBNA Visa: £476. Request for payment 22 June, LBA 6 July 2006

AA Account with Capital Bank: £80. Request for payment 19 July 2006

Capital One Visa: £160. Request for payment 19 July 2006

Paragon Personal Finance: £120 fees plus £1313.70 early redemption penalty. Request for payment 19 July 2006

Kensington Mortgages: £95. Request for payment 19 July 2006


Nationwide: £2443. Settled in full

Co-operative Bank Visa: £351. Settled in full.

MBNA Visa: £476. Settled in full.

AA Account with Capital Bank: £80. Settled in full.

Capital One Visa: £160. Settled in full.

Paragon Personal Finance: £120 fees SETTLED ERC claim withdrawn Feb 07.

Kensington Mortgages: Claim withdrawn Feb 07.

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Hi, did you get anywhere. I have issued money claim summons against Paragon for about £2K including interest for redemption penalties. They got a cheap one man show firm of solicitors to write me an intimidating letter saying that I had better withdraw my claim or else I would have to pay their costs (very unlikely in small claims court) and also that I was sure to lose as I had been aware of the penalty when I paid up my mortgage (doh! missed the point a little). So they have until next week to file a defense.

 

Good luck!

 

Susan


susanmom

Halifax £2256 LBA 22/5

Accucard £80 LBA 22/5

Intelligent Finance £507 LBA 22/5

Intelligent Finance card £170 LBA 22/5

Citicards £175 LBA 22/5

CapitalOne £220 Prelim 22/5 £60 refunded

Cahoot Loan £90 settled in full

Barclaycard £72 LBA 22/5

Paragon Personal Finance £1701 Prelim 16/5

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Hi there Susan. It's very good to know that there's somebody in the same boat.

 

I have had absolutely zero result from Paragon - not even an acknowledgement so far. I will stick to my schedule with LBA etc. but always expected to have to take this one to court.

 

Best of luck to you, and if you need some moral support I am here. It sounds as if you know what you're doing (i.e. ignore the solicitor and proceed with the claim) and there is plenty of help on the forums with the court documents. Let me know how you get on; do you have your own thread? If so I could subscribe to that, which would save you having to post twice.

 

ladymoonray


Nationwide: £2443. Settled in full

Co-operative Bank Visa: £351. Settled in full.

MBNA Visa: £476. Settled in full.

AA Account with Capital Bank: £80. Settled in full.

Capital One Visa: £160. Settled in full.

Paragon Personal Finance: £120 fees SETTLED ERC claim withdrawn Feb 07.

Kensington Mortgages: Claim withdrawn Feb 07.

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Well, I've had a long and involved letter full of bumf from Paragon. They've agreed to refund my account charges (£120) but are not budging on the early repayment penalty. Never mind; the process goes on...


Nationwide: £2443. Settled in full

Co-operative Bank Visa: £351. Settled in full.

MBNA Visa: £476. Settled in full.

AA Account with Capital Bank: £80. Settled in full.

Capital One Visa: £160. Settled in full.

Paragon Personal Finance: £120 fees SETTLED ERC claim withdrawn Feb 07.

Kensington Mortgages: Claim withdrawn Feb 07.

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Hello

 

I am interested in this - I have a secured loan with paragon and paid up early with large penalty......is it just the standard letters yo go with here any different wording???

 

Thanks Jo

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I did have to fiddle around a bit with the wording of the letters, but the principle is the same. The Early Redemption charge exceeds the actual cost to the company of terminating the loan early. Someone helpfully pointed out that we should not confuse loss of profits with actual cost. Warning: I did get a long convoluted letter from Paragon declining the ERC claim (but agreeing my account charges yay!). I'm just ignoring it :)


Nationwide: £2443. Settled in full

Co-operative Bank Visa: £351. Settled in full.

MBNA Visa: £476. Settled in full.

AA Account with Capital Bank: £80. Settled in full.

Capital One Visa: £160. Settled in full.

Paragon Personal Finance: £120 fees SETTLED ERC claim withdrawn Feb 07.

Kensington Mortgages: Claim withdrawn Feb 07.

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I did have to fiddle around a bit with the wording of the letters, but the principle is the same. The Early Redemption charge exceeds the actual cost to the company of terminating the loan early. Someone helpfully pointed out that we should not confuse loss of profits with actual cost. Warning: I did get a long convoluted letter from Paragon declining the ERC claim (but agreeing my account charges yay!). I'm just ignoring it :)

 

Could you post the letter here or scan and email it to seminole@consumeractiongroup.co.uk ?

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It's a bit long, so I'll have to scan it, but I will certainly do so and e-mail it to you.


Nationwide: £2443. Settled in full

Co-operative Bank Visa: £351. Settled in full.

MBNA Visa: £476. Settled in full.

AA Account with Capital Bank: £80. Settled in full.

Capital One Visa: £160. Settled in full.

Paragon Personal Finance: £120 fees SETTLED ERC claim withdrawn Feb 07.

Kensington Mortgages: Claim withdrawn Feb 07.

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I thought it would be more useful if I posted Paragon's response to my initial letter here. So here it is:

 

Further to my recent correspondence, I have carried out a full review of your account and the issues raised in your letter dated 19 July 2006.

I note that you are requesting a refund of £120 in charges applied to your account together with a refund of £1,433.70, comprising the charge for early settlement of your loan and representing six months' interest at the time of settlement. My response will address the two types of charges separately as they cannot be considered as one.

I appreciate that there has been much recent media coverage regarding bank charges and that it has been inferred they do not reflect the actual loss incurred by the company. This coverage specifically tends to refer to charges for non normal account intervention, such as telephone calls and letter fees for arrears customers, transactions not necessarily itemised within a Credit Agreement. Paragon has every confidence in the propriety of its fee charging arrangements and these are detailed within the General Fees Tariff sent to you at the time your loan completed.

These "intervention" charges are incurred when a customer breaches the loan contract and should not be confused with charges incurred by the lender when the customer voluntarily elects to repay the loan early. The second refund of charges you request falls into this category.

The "fairness" provisions cited by you in your letter apply to the former only, rather than the latter, and are designed to prevent the lender recovering a disproportionate amount on breach of contract. In applying the second charge we refer to, we believe we have acted properly. This charges reflects the additional costs incurred by us in you electing to repay your loan early. I enclose a copy of your signed Credit Agreement for your information. By signing this Credit Agreement you acknowledged to Paragon that you had read and understood the Terms and Conditions on the reverse. I refer to Section 5.1 which explains that if early settlement occurs within the first five years of your loan then you will pan an additional amount equivalent to six months' interest calculated on the balance outstanding.

Notwithstanding the above, and purely as a gesture of goodwill, I have arranged to refund the £20 charges, and this will be sent to you under separate cover.

I trust that my response explains Paragon's position, however please do not hesitate to contact me if you wish to discuss this matter further.

I will post my intended reply in the next comment.


Nationwide: £2443. Settled in full

Co-operative Bank Visa: £351. Settled in full.

MBNA Visa: £476. Settled in full.

AA Account with Capital Bank: £80. Settled in full.

Capital One Visa: £160. Settled in full.

Paragon Personal Finance: £120 fees SETTLED ERC claim withdrawn Feb 07.

Kensington Mortgages: Claim withdrawn Feb 07.

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There is a lot I could say in response to Paragon's letter. For example, how do they differentiate between penalty charges, and early repayment penalties? I don't believe the law actually does so at all. And they helpfully say in their letter that the ERC is designed to reflect the additional costs incurred when a loan is repaid early! How does that equate to 6 months interest!

 

But I don't want to get anything wrong and mess up my chances of recovering the money, so I'm simply going to say:

 

Thank you for your letter of 25 July. I am very disappointed that you have failed to respond adequately to my letter of 19 July 2006. I accept your offer of £120 in partial settlement of the amount I am claiming, but you have declined to refund the sum of £1,313.70 representing the early repayment penalty you charged when I repaid the loan in January 2005. I require repayment in full of this money.

The early repayment penalty is unlawful at Common Law, Statute and under recent Consumer regulations. I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account, and of which you have helpfully sent me a copy. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law. I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary.

I require repayment in the sum of £1,313.70. If you do not comply fully within 14 days then I shall begin a claim against you for the full amount plus interest plus my costs and without further notice.

 

This is pretty much the standard LBA from the library.

 

Does anyone think I should raise any additional points in this letter? I am fairly convinced I'll have to start a moneyclaim to get this settled, so I'd like to send the LBA off asap and start the 14 days running.

 

Thanks!


Nationwide: £2443. Settled in full

Co-operative Bank Visa: £351. Settled in full.

MBNA Visa: £476. Settled in full.

AA Account with Capital Bank: £80. Settled in full.

Capital One Visa: £160. Settled in full.

Paragon Personal Finance: £120 fees SETTLED ERC claim withdrawn Feb 07.

Kensington Mortgages: Claim withdrawn Feb 07.

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Did you see this that Barracad found :

 

 

Office of Fair Trading Test for Excessive Redemption Charges

Quote:

3. A term in a mortgage agreement which requires the borrower to pay more for breaching the contract terms than actual costs and losses caused to the lender by the breach (or a genuine pre-estimate of that) is likely to be regarded as an unfair penalty and to be unenforceable both at common law and (in a consumer mortgage) under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations. A redemption charge may be regarded as a penalty even if it is expressed as the price for exercising a right rather than a consequence of breaking the agreement.


Please note that I am not a legal expert and all advice given is without prejudice and is purely my opinion only.

 

** Nationwide - £1821.15-PAID IN FULL - Aug 06 **

** Halifax Mortgage -£390 - PAID IN FULL - Nov 06 **

Lloyds TSB - MCOL issued 09/03/07 - £2953 + costs - ON HOLD....

 

 

 

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Your letter looks fine but you must bear in mind that this is still a relatively untested area. They may fight you and you may have to argue your case in court. If you lose then you will have to pay your own costs. I think the argument about these charges is perfectly reasonable. Whether you will win is uncertain.

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Thanks for the info Dolly, that's really helpful.


Nationwide: £2443. Settled in full

Co-operative Bank Visa: £351. Settled in full.

MBNA Visa: £476. Settled in full.

AA Account with Capital Bank: £80. Settled in full.

Capital One Visa: £160. Settled in full.

Paragon Personal Finance: £120 fees SETTLED ERC claim withdrawn Feb 07.

Kensington Mortgages: Claim withdrawn Feb 07.

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Thanks, Seminole. I'm going to send the letter off tomorrow.

 

Before I started all this, I couldn't have afforded the court costs. But now I've recovered a fair sum in bank charges, I'm prepared to use some of it to test the ERC principle if I have to. But I'm guessing Paragon won't let this go all the way in court, in the same way the banks won't. They don't want to set a precedent.

 

I can only try to get the ERC back, and I'm going to.

 

I may well have to come back here for help with the Moneyclaim form, but let's see what they have to say in response to the LBA.


Nationwide: £2443. Settled in full

Co-operative Bank Visa: £351. Settled in full.

MBNA Visa: £476. Settled in full.

AA Account with Capital Bank: £80. Settled in full.

Capital One Visa: £160. Settled in full.

Paragon Personal Finance: £120 fees SETTLED ERC claim withdrawn Feb 07.

Kensington Mortgages: Claim withdrawn Feb 07.

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Hey there Ladymoonray,

 

I too am after reclaiming the early redemption penalty from Paragon (see Paragon Personal Finance: What to do????) plus charges so I think I'm in the same boat as you here. I requested a statement of account and it turned up very quickly and there were the charges, the admin fee and the dreaded redemption penalty (it actually says PENALTY on it too)!

 

I bunged my letter asking for it all back in the post last Friday so now I sit and wait.

 

So how have things turned out for you? Have you had any kind of result from Paragon with regard to the ERC? Please post here as soon as you know one way or the other! And good luck!!!!!!

 

KJB


WON!

Cahoot - Prelim 18/8/06 - LBA 1/9/06 - MCOL 15/9/06

GE Money - Prelim 10/8/06 - LBA 1/9/06 - Cheque arrives 7/9/06

HSBC - Prelim 5/8/06 - 10/8/06 - LBA 18/8/06 - Partial offer 24/8/06: Rejected - MCOL 7/9/06 - 21/9/06 Full Offer & Confidential.

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Thanks, KJB (how weird, those are my initials too).

 

I've had another whingey letter from Paragon in response to my LBA. I'm not bothering to post it here, it's much shorter and less technical than the previous one.

 

I can start the moneyclaim any time after 30/08/06, but I'm going to have to wait until I get a refund from the Nationwide before I can afford the court fee for this claim. However, I'm well on with the Moneyclaim against NW, so hopefully I'll be able to get started soon. I'll definitely keep posting here when anything happens, as I know this is a less tested area.

 

Good luck KJB as well!


Nationwide: £2443. Settled in full

Co-operative Bank Visa: £351. Settled in full.

MBNA Visa: £476. Settled in full.

AA Account with Capital Bank: £80. Settled in full.

Capital One Visa: £160. Settled in full.

Paragon Personal Finance: £120 fees SETTLED ERC claim withdrawn Feb 07.

Kensington Mortgages: Claim withdrawn Feb 07.

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Thanks, KJB (how weird, those are my initials too).

 

I've had another whingey letter from Paragon in response to my LBA. I'm not bothering to post it here, it's much shorter and less technical than the previous one.

 

I can start the moneyclaim any time after 30/08/06, but I'm going to have to wait until I get a refund from the Nationwide before I can afford the court fee for this claim. However, I'm well on with the Moneyclaim against NW, so hopefully I'll be able to get started soon. I'll definitely keep posting here when anything happens, as I know this is a less tested area.

 

Good luck KJB as well!

 

Me again and thanks for your reply last time, I had a letter back from Paragon today sying they were 'looking into it' and would get back to me within 14 days. Well that ain't my timescale (LBA all ready to go on the 1st of September) so they can stuff their deadline of 6th Spetember. Shall we continue...? I think so!

 

Just out of interest, and please tell me to mind my nose if you like, but how much are you claiming from Paragon? With the ERC I am after £2505.00...


WON!

Cahoot - Prelim 18/8/06 - LBA 1/9/06 - MCOL 15/9/06

GE Money - Prelim 10/8/06 - LBA 1/9/06 - Cheque arrives 7/9/06

HSBC - Prelim 5/8/06 - 10/8/06 - LBA 18/8/06 - Partial offer 24/8/06: Rejected - MCOL 7/9/06 - 21/9/06 Full Offer & Confidential.

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ok maybe I should have read from the start of your thread (again!) DOH!


WON!

Cahoot - Prelim 18/8/06 - LBA 1/9/06 - MCOL 15/9/06

GE Money - Prelim 10/8/06 - LBA 1/9/06 - Cheque arrives 7/9/06

HSBC - Prelim 5/8/06 - 10/8/06 - LBA 18/8/06 - Partial offer 24/8/06: Rejected - MCOL 7/9/06 - 21/9/06 Full Offer & Confidential.

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Just for completeness, the moneyclaim was issued on 8th September. No response as yet.

 

ladymoonray


Nationwide: £2443. Settled in full

Co-operative Bank Visa: £351. Settled in full.

MBNA Visa: £476. Settled in full.

AA Account with Capital Bank: £80. Settled in full.

Capital One Visa: £160. Settled in full.

Paragon Personal Finance: £120 fees SETTLED ERC claim withdrawn Feb 07.

Kensington Mortgages: Claim withdrawn Feb 07.

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Paragon have submitted a defence, and I've received the allocation questionnaire. I'm not entirely sure where I'm going to get the £100 court fee from, but I have until 23 October to do it, and I'm determined to continue. Wish me luck!


Nationwide: £2443. Settled in full

Co-operative Bank Visa: £351. Settled in full.

MBNA Visa: £476. Settled in full.

AA Account with Capital Bank: £80. Settled in full.

Capital One Visa: £160. Settled in full.

Paragon Personal Finance: £120 fees SETTLED ERC claim withdrawn Feb 07.

Kensington Mortgages: Claim withdrawn Feb 07.

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Oh things are hotting up!

 

I didn't think there was a fee for claims under 1,500 for allocation questionairre?

 

Anything of substance in their defence?

 

Best of luck

 

Zoot

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Paragon have submitted a defence, and I've received the allocation questionnaire. I'm not entirely sure where I'm going to get the £100 court fee from, but I have until 23 October to do it, and I'm determined to continue. Wish me luck!

 

Hi Lady M,

 

Wow, seems like Paragon like to take their time eh? I am just about to launce my MCOL against them tonight so lets see if they string me out too... While I was away last week I got home to find a 'this is our final response' letter from them and that the eraly redemption penalty still stands... Good luck with your claim and I'm hot on your tail, and Paragon's!

 

Keep going!

 

KJ


WON!

Cahoot - Prelim 18/8/06 - LBA 1/9/06 - MCOL 15/9/06

GE Money - Prelim 10/8/06 - LBA 1/9/06 - Cheque arrives 7/9/06

HSBC - Prelim 5/8/06 - 10/8/06 - LBA 18/8/06 - Partial offer 24/8/06: Rejected - MCOL 7/9/06 - 21/9/06 Full Offer & Confidential.

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Oh things are hotting up!

 

I didn't think there was a fee for claims under 1,500 for allocation questionairre?

 

Anything of substance in their defence?

 

Best of luck

 

Zoot

 

Thanks Zoot! I hadn't read the bit about the fee properly; as my claim is under £1500 there is no fee to pay on the allocation questionnaire. So I filled it in and sent it off today.

 

There was nothing new in the defence (surprise); just a lot of waffle designed to put people off. I shall be most interested to see what happens next!


Nationwide: £2443. Settled in full

Co-operative Bank Visa: £351. Settled in full.

MBNA Visa: £476. Settled in full.

AA Account with Capital Bank: £80. Settled in full.

Capital One Visa: £160. Settled in full.

Paragon Personal Finance: £120 fees SETTLED ERC claim withdrawn Feb 07.

Kensington Mortgages: Claim withdrawn Feb 07.

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Hiya Ladymoonray,

I'm following your case with interest,i too have a problem with Paragon regarding ppi (see my thread),so i'll keep reading and if i can help i most certainly will. Good luck and go get em girl :lol:


Saranev

 

Don't let them get away with it :mad2:

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