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B&Q Security dragged me out of ny van over bogus theft assumption


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The civilian power of arrest expressly forbids pre offence arrest - The offence must be in commission or already have happened - The only exception is the right to arrest before the offence is committed is to protect a child or vunerable person

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Plain clothes staff carrying out licensable activity do not have to openly display their licence on their person in many cases.

 

Plainclothes unidentifyable security staff should not be involved in the apprehension of a suspect & if they are they risk being assaulted by the subject who could reasonably claim self defence - also if they take part in apprehension they should display their licence

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Rubbish.

What do you think Store Detectives etc are employed for? .Of course they apprehend people.Thats their job.Who do you think is going to do the stopping for them,the pixies?

 

Anyone involved in apprehending people who allegedly commit crimes does risk assault,whether uniformed or otherwise,that's because the perpetrators often try to escape so they can't be brought before the judiciary.That is a well known fact and a risk of their job,it need not concern you.

 

 

1-you speak to the person who has stolen,you tell them who you are.

2-you try to speak to the person.They have stolen goods and run before you have the opportunity to tell them who you are (they have a pretty good idea anyway-thats why they ran!!)This could NOT be claimed self defence

 

 

Not sure how self defence enters into those 2 cases.That's the real world.

 

And before you talk about laying hands on them,etc,well you don't need to do that unless the try to escape.

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Plainclothes unidentifyable security staff should not be involved in the apprehension of a suspect & if they are they risk being assaulted by the subject who could reasonably claim self defence - also if they take part in apprehension they should display their licence

 

 

No,you are wrong.Another urban myth.

Someone working covertly may as well walk around with a blue light on their head,if they have to "display" their i/d card as guards and doormen do.

 

All they need to do is have their i/d available to show.

I really do not know where you are getting this stuff from.

Edited by shanty
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If a complete unidentifiable stranger accosted me under such circumstances they would find themselves on their back looking at the ceiling - Also it's not an urban myth nor is it rubbish - Police Officers have died as a direct result of being out of uniform when accosting a known villain & subsequently the villain has escaped a murder conviction citing self-defence - so don't you state rubbish - It's little wonder that firms like RLP think they are inviolate when the security industry employs such people.

Edited by JonCris
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Shanty read joncris's post again.

 

In the event that a plain clothes store detective attempted to apprehend a suspect, but got a smack in the teeth and a pair of black eyes for their trouble, the suspect could reasonably claim self-defence if charges were brought against them.

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Jonchris,if you were approached when you had been shoplifting,since when is a person who states who they are, an unidentifiable stranger?Particularly as that person is a licensed operative in possession of i/d?

 

Any person when asked to would show their i/d-as is required by the sia for plain clothes staff.

 

Any store detective who was not licensed would have their own i/d or could get a member of the uniformed shop staff inside to vouch for who they were-it's really easy,you know.

 

It is a myth that plain clothes security staff have to display their licence.

 

I am afraid that suggesting on this forum that to assault someone who lawfully stopped someone is justifiable in law, is wholly wrong.Think VERY seriously what advice you are giving out here.

 

I think you would find a criminal who tried that one is likely to be asked why he didn't ask to see the persons i/d before he "smacked them".He might also ask why he didn't just walk away.Pouncing on someone without identifying yourself and grabbing them is not what is being talked about here,(as well you know),and that may well be problematic .

 

 

This rubbish you are spouting really needs to stop now.

 

I suggest,as a last resort,you check with your local Police if attacking someone who lawfully approached you,(when you have committed a criminal offence) and stated who they were, is ok you will be told "no" in no uncertain terms.

Edited by shanty
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Shanty read joncris's post again.

 

In the event that a plain clothes store detective attempted to apprehend a suspect, but got a smack in the teeth and a pair of black eyes for their trouble, the suspect could reasonably claim self-defence if charges were brought against them.

 

Read my post again,you are wrong.The store detective would have to have made no attempt to identify themself and have to have also physically laid hands on the person-this is NOT the situation I have described .All they have to do,is produce their i/d -on request.

Edited by shanty
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The civilian power of arrest expressly forbids pre offence arrest - The offence must be in commission or already have happened - The only exception is the right to arrest before the offence is committed is to protect a child or vunerable person

 

If a man is standing in front of your house with a hammer and is swinging it at your window,a civilian does have a power of arrest to arrest him before he actually breaks the window,for example,for breach of the peace.

That is the notable exception.

Edited by shanty
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There is no doubt an interesting discussion to be had on the points raised by Shanty and others, but this thread is not the place for it.

 

Please start a new thread if you want to continue the discussion, and keep comments on this thread to points that are specifically concerned with the original query.

 

Thanks, everyone.

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Hello im back!!! Sorry not replied for ages, had no pc as it has been broke!

 

CPS still running with it at crown, got to go for 2 day trial on the 8th July.

 

Nothing much to report other than the fact that B + Q are saying that the camera which is in the security room where i was taken to (and apparently produced the dril bits from my pockets on request) was not working and they have no recording. How on earth can a security room where suspects are taken have no facility for recording images? Surely this is where they would gather most of their evidence of the crime? Im thinking this is their way of covering up the fact that the drill bits were put in the office by the security and not found upon me. Also covers up nicely the way they treated me and threw me round the office.

 

The guard was employed by VSG and not in house but was not at the time wearing his sia badge and people i know have since been in and stated he is still not wearing it, which is apparently against the rules of the sia.

 

Only time will tell, there are quite a few discrepancies in their statements, just hope they get tripped up!

 

Have the police fingerprinted the drill bits?

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Hi tiler1

have a read of this;

Reasonable Force

 

The amount of force that will be justified will depend on the circumstances in which it is used. However, in principle almost any level of force may be justified if an individual honestly believed it was necessary to prevent a crime taking place. In deciding whether the amount of force used was reasonable a number of factors will be taken into account, including:

  • The seriousness of the crime that an individual was acting to prevent – For example, it is unlikely that any force would be reasonable to prevent a thirteen year old schoolboy stealing a chocolate bar;
  • Whether the crime could have been prevented in some other way – perhaps by alerting the police;
  • The strength of the individual using force relative to the person committing the crime – If a karate black-belt or a body-builder who works as a bouncer uses force against a weaker person there is a high risk that it will be excessive.

 

 

 

The Use of Force to protect Property

 

When an individual takes action to prevent someone damaging or stealing his property, or the property of another person, he is entitled to use force. The amount of force that can be justified to protect property may well be lower than what can reasonably be used to protect human life. If this defence is raised two questions will have to be considered:

  • Whether the force was used to protect property from an attack - or the threat of an attack - which would amount to a criminal or unlawful act;
  • Whether, given the circumstances as the individual saw them, it would be objectively reasonable to use force in those circumstances

it sounds like your case comes down to word against word as the 'cameras not working' offer no solid evidence.

 

Shanty offers a good point but he must realise that if you are trained and certified to carry out security duties the body that regulates those persons i.e; the SIA ,have to be insured against personal and public liability, thats why certified SIA people must identify themselves.

Also the law does state that reasonable force can be used to arrest someone who you believe is about to or is committing an offence, IF THERE IS NO OTHER WAY OF AFFECTING THE ARREST.

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hi all

Just a quick one, although shanty has been told to start his own thread i must agree with a small portion of what he says, also jonchris is wrong a civilian arrest can be affected if you have the belief that an inprisonable offence is about to take place ( infact it is an offence to to do nothing whether that be intervene or alert the authorities).

 

 

Criminal Law Act 1967 (c.58)

 

Its all in this Act

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Read it again I think you'll find it distinguishes between a constable (who obviously does have that right) & person (civilian) who does not - A civil arrest can only take place after or during the commissioning of the crime. - If ordinary citizens could arrest on suspicion all kinds of hell would break loose

 

(2) Any person may arrest without warrant anyone who is, or whom he, with reasonable cause, suspects to be, in the act of committing an arrestable offence.

(3) Where an arrestable offence has been committed, any person may arrest without warrant anyone who is, or whom he, with reasonable cause, suspects to be, guilty of the offence.

(4) Where a constable, with reasonable cause, suspects that an arrestable offence has been committed, he may arrest without warrant anyone whom he, with reasonable cause, suspects to be guilty of the offence.

(5) A constable may arrest without warrant any person who is, or whom he, with reasonable cause, suspects to be, about to commit an arrestable offence.

 

The latter underlined does NOT apply to 'any person'

Edited by JonCris
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You are right joncris, however there is an amendment, which i will post later as i don't have it now, that states a civilian may affect an arrest if they reasonably believe a criminal act is about to take place which may cause a danger to people or property. it would be ludicrous to say that a person has to stand back and allow an assault for instance before they can act.

However we digress, the security guard involved in this thread did abuse his position and acted illegally , he committed an assault, when clearly the option to question, warn then inform the suspect was still possible, force is used as a last resort and only used in proportion to what is neccessary, as far as i am concerned he acted in a completely unprofessional way and is nothing short of a thug , it really does show this mans lack of intilect when all he is capable of is bullying, i hope he loses his licence and is proscecuted.

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Hi.

 

I have today received a letter from a company called opus from scotland stating they are a debt recovery company and have been instructed by RLP to recover the amount of £137.50 which i have previously instructed RLP that i am not willing to pay or even enter into discussion about until the court case in this matter has been dealt with.

 

Any advice on what to do about this letter or whether this company has any rights to pursue this matter as a debt collection.

 

Thanks

TILER1

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Give it to your solicitor as evidence of them attempting to bully and intimidate in the run up to your case?

 

I would have thought things like this could be used to help make a case that they are in fact wrongfully accusing people simply to try and boost profits.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi, was due at crown court for a 2 day trial on 8th july which has been scheduled for months. received a call at 4.30pm the day before from my solicitor saying the court had just rang him and said that the case had been postponed due to a shortage of judges available!!

 

Now waiting until 15th july when a fresh date can be set which is likely to be sometime in sept or oct. when will this nightmare end??????

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  • dx100uk changed the title to B&Q Security dragged me out of ny van over bogus theft assumption
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