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Never signed agreement! ** WON**


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Good afternoon everybody!, I've just come off the phone from HSBC complaints as I have still been chasing them for the original signed document even though the FOS are about to look at this case and make a decision. (as i'm sure you know by now there is no signed document)..Anyway, the lady i spoke to said she would ring me back as she had to speak with another department. She was very true to her word and called me back within 5 minutes. She told me,and i quote, "The department that is currently dealing with this have told me that we don't have the original signed agreement" .....Praise the lord!!!, Its only taken them 5 months to finally admit this!!!!, She then went on to say that as the FOS are looking into this they need to wait for them to decide and blah blah blah. Anyway thats finally put my mind at rest that they have finally admitted it! Bring out the trumpets.

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Hi mike , that's progress of a sort ........ :)

 

But did you record the phone call ......... :rolleyes: lol! I may be an old cynic but I'll bet they can't find who told you next time you ask .....

 

Can you ask them to confirm in writing ?

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

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Hey there Johnny, I actually rang back a little later on to make sure it was logged on their system and it was!, I have a name of the person who said it as well, full name too!. It was a little more difficult to get them to put it in writing as all they kept saying was it's being dealt with by another department and they dont take calls! I wouldnt mind a job in customer service where they dont take calls!!!!...I got an email address for that department so ive already requested they put it in writing to me. I live in hope! (oh, and no, i didnt record the call! lol :D)

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Hello again everyone, The FOS have still not made a decision on this as yet and HSBC are not prepared to put in writing to me that they dont have a signed agreement. They are saying that as the FOS are currently dealing with this they feel it is best if they await their outcome. I was just wondering if HSBC have the right to pretty much just ignore me until the FOS look at it? I know i should probably just be patient about the FOS but I am certainly not expecting any positive outcome from them so i'm keen to try and get all the evidence i can as soon as possible before i issue court proceedings. I've heard about protocol 4.6 on here and was hoping someone could give me any more information about it. Or if I should just shut up til the FOS decide!

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Hi mike, I think you've got them on the back foot and they're squirming . :)

 

I'd be tempted to write and give them one more chance to produce this , with the (very real) threat that you will allow a court to decide before FOS get round to dealing with it , 'as you know FOS are very busy at the moment and will take too long to make a decision '......:rolleyes: .

 

It may prompt them into just folding ........ :D

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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  • 2 weeks later...

Good morning again everyone, Last week i spoke to the adjudicator at theFOS who is going to be making the decision on my case. I was told that they were still awaiting for some more information back from HSBC and the file had not been properly looked into, however despite this i was told that they would not be recommending the debt be wiped. I was told the only options they would consider would be to either uphold the current managed loan if it was found to have been implemented correctly or, if it hadnt been then they would recommend reverting back to the previous loan. I didnt get into a discussion with the adjudicator about this as i really thought there would be no point. I was actually told that it may be in my best interest to have the managed loan kept in place as "it has zero interest"!!!!!, if i had been eating cornflakes at the time then i think i may have choked on them at this point!!!, I advised that managed loans are most definetly not interest free!, I was told they would look into this!, anyway my point is this. Can the HSCB really revert back to a previous loan that actually now no longer exists?, As a backup i have managed to send my original loan agreement to a solicitor to have it checked for its enforceability. Any ideas anyone?

Edited by mike77
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Hi Mike

I'm not sure about the legality of reverting to a previous loan ,now non- existent, ...... but I would doubt the word of any idiot from FOS who doesn't know that managed loans are some of the most usurious legal loans in existence .... if this ignorance wasn't so serious it would be hilarious.

 

I think you should take advice from your solicitor and go it alone taking on HSBC if you think you have a case .

 

Meanwhile , a complaint to FOS about the ignorance of their adjudicator wouldn't go amiss ....... if you have evidence , but if it's verbal he could just deny saying it ........ :(

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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Just as an afterthought ,Mike , I'll be interested to hear what pete has to say on this one, if the screen can stand the heat :D

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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Thanks Johnny, I made a note of the time and date of the call as all of their calls are recorded. I should put in a complaint about the FOS really, especially about the fact they have already decided the only options available without even looking at the file in full!! I find it amazing that i may be able to get a loan that i signed for declared unenforceable yet when i dont sign one its a bloody nightmare!

I feel that i do have a big case as HSBC are unable to provide a signed loan agreement for the managed loan. As we all know by now this is because i never signed one! Ill see what the solicitor comes back with about the original agreement, if that isnt enforceable then HSBC arent really in a very strong position!

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As I said before Mike , I think you've got HSBC on the back foot with no Loan agreement and now that you may have FOS on the back foot with prejudicial drivel , maybe it's time to push both of them into a corner .... with a final LBA to HSBC and a Serious Complaint letter to FOS.....:)

 

But maybe best to see what your solicitor says about the previous loan first .......

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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Oops , sorry mike ,:oops: - Letter Before Action - basically just saying that if they cannot produce proof of the existence of your agreement or confirm in writing that they do not hold such an agreement within (say 14days) that you will institute legal proceedings to force them to do so .

 

See my previous posts around #55..... you may have to take them to the brink of legal action ...... doesn't look as if FOS are going to be of any help at the moment ..

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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Cheers Johnny! FOS are a waste of space by the looks of it!, legal action it is i think!

Would appreciate it if other people could look at the last few posts on todays date to see if there are any other possible solutions?

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Where do they find these adjudicators? No wonder no one has confidence in the FOS.

Just because the latter agreement is unenforceable doesn’t give the bank the right (or the FOS) to enforce the earlier agreement which it agreed had come to an end – not unless you agree to it of course – which you won’t do obviously.

The previous agreement would have automatically been terminated by the second agreement – not only that but the managed loan would be a modifying agreement under s82 (2) of the CCA 1974. This agreement would have the affect of revoking the earlier agreement and the new agreement should contain the minimum terms to satisfy s127(3). Oh…and of course it needs your signature to be binding.

It’s the OFT or your local trading standards you need to get in touch with – they should be able to clarify your position.

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Thank you Atwozee, I rang the office of fair trading customer services number and was told that because the FOS are already dealing with this they will not speak to me! the woman i rang spoke to the local trading standards whilst i was on the phone and they confirmed this!, well thats what she told me anyway! I spoke to the adjudicator again at the FOS yesterday to say that i was very disappointed with the options that they are suggesting but was merely told that is all they could do!, I said i think i will probably just end up taking this to court as what they are suggesting is not acceptable to me. The adjudicator told me that i can just tell them at any time to stop dealing with it and they will, but for the moment i told them to carry on until they have come to an official decision as I thought this may be best as it gives me a bit more time to get more advice and see where i stand.

Oh by the way i forgot to mention. I heard last week that a judge on the manchester circuit ruled in favour of the bank even when the bank could not produce a signed agreement. Apparently he went against what the department of justice has been advising judges to do and this has apparently thrown a spanner in the works for cases similar being heard in the manchester area as there could be a ripple effect of decisions going this way. There is going to be an appeal about it as the judge did not give a very clear indication as to why he ruled for the bank, but not expected to be settled for a few months. I dont know the ins and outs of the case but hoping this is not a precedent. Has anyone else heard about this?

Edited by mike77
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I haven't heard about this one Mike , but thanks for posting it .... :)

 

There's always some loopy judge who's not living in the real world and doesn't read directives from on high.... :rolleyes:

 

Hopefully , other judges will not follows suit and this one will be overturned on appeal ...... :)

 

Of course , as you also point out , we don't know the ins and outs of the case ..... the appellant may have inadvertently admitted to something and the judge had no option ..... who knows?

Edited by johnnymitch
afterthought ........

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello again everyone, The solicitor that i got to check the original signed loan agreement has come back to me to say that it is "potentially unenforceable" as it has breached several regulations. Even though this original loan has been satisfied i got it checked because the FOS are saying that they may be advising HSBC to revert to a previous agreement. My solicitor also asked me to request the 2nd agreement as if this is also potentially unenforceable then HSBC will really have nothing to go on. I have today found out that HSBC do not even have the 2nd signed agreement! So put bluntly HSBC have one signed agreement for 3 loans! The solicitor i went to has advised i wait for the FOS's decision before i start any proceedings.

I have spoken to the FOS today to ask when they will be coming to a decision but they still havent got a clue!, The FOS really are a waste of time and no wonder the banks couldnt care less if you threaten to report them to them because they dont do anything! They are all just ex bank workers! does anyone have any ideas? im sick of waiting!!!!!!

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Hi mike ,

 

With all due respect to your solicitor friend , you are right , FOS are a waste of time at the moment due to being inundated with complaints . Last I heard they were still working on Dec 2007 .

 

.and one agreement for 3 loans ....

:eek:

..... that will be in their 'Too Difficult ' tray ...... lol!

 

So, maybe it's time to let the court decide , but that has to be your decision mate , because given the strange logic of some judges , you could lose it .......

Pete may be along later , and we can see what his angle on it is.... :)

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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I agree whole heartedly with JM :) the last I heard the FOS had a minimum waiting period of 8 weeks before they even look at a claim submitted to them, added to that you have to remember the FOS, as mike said are mainly ex bank workers and from our point of view their decision can seem biased in the banks favour.

 

The court route also has its pit falls, as JM said, some Judges can seem to be a little blinkered to the actual facts, although I do believe this is because they look at the wider picture too (you have borrowed money so you should pay it back).

 

I think if you can be seen to be reasonable by a Judge i.e. not trying to rip the bank off totally, just get back what they have taken unlawfully and pay off the rest of any outstanding balance you could stand a fair chance of winning in court.

 

The choice has to be yours though, you know your facts better than anyone. The FOS route is free, the court route has fees and maybe costs if you loose.

 

Hope that has helped and let us know if you have any questions and keep us up to date on how your getting along anyway :)

 

pete

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello again everyone, Well i finally got a decision from the FOS. They say that the managed loan was not set up correctly and they have suggested 2 options. The first is that HSBC would remove the default from my file and i would pay £100 a month with an interest rate of 1%. The other option is the debt will remain on my file and with HSBC but be free from any interest charges.

 

I am now awaiting for a solicitor to get back to me this week to see what else i can do. The solicitor would take the case on a no win no fee basis so im pretty sure they would only take it if they were 99% certain i would win. Anyway i'll keep everyone updated on here.

Edited by mike77
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Thanks for the update Mike :)- an interesting slant on FOS's options there.. IMHO if the managed loan has not been set up correctly, it is 'unenforceable' especially if there is no signature - which is what this has been all about - as atwozee said 'where do they get these adjudicators? :rolleyes:

 

If that decision is in writing , then wonder which way HSBC are going to jump when they get their copy? ..... :rolleyes: .

 

So, ultimately , it looks as if you have to go the court road to get any further , hopefully the court won't take the same position as FOS ...

 

Be interested to see how this pans out Mike :)

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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cheers Johnny, it is a strange one!, well apparently it was HSBC that suggested the repayments of £100 a month. It's just that FOS "kindly" passed the information onto me. I'm sure that i have a big case here but it just takes so darn long!, as soon as the solicitor gets in touch with me ill let you know whats happening.

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Hah! that makes it a lot clearer - FOS are acting as HSBC's mouthpiece , not making their own considered decision ...... :rolleyes:

 

Having read all the way through your thread again I think that court is the only road left - if your solicitor reckons it's worth pursuing .... personally, I can't see that a loan with no signed agreement can be in any way enforceable ...... but I'm not a lawyer or a judge :D

Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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  • 1 month later...

Long time no speak everyone!, had massive problems with my PC so logging on has been very difficult indeed! I am the bearer of great news!

HSBC have agreed to write off my loan and remove my default!

I went through a solicitor around a month ago and Yesterday confirmed they will wipe everything off!!, I cannot tell you how much of a relief this is! My solicitor says she has never had a case settle so quick but she thinks thats mainly because i had done most of the groundwork myself and taken it so far! I'd just like to say a massive thank you to everyone who gave me advice and especially to Johnnymitch, Castlebest and Atwozee. I'm sure ive missed a few names off there but a big thank you to everyone! It just goes to show that if you think you have a case then you must fight it to the end and back the banks into a corner! This really is a new beginning for me as i will never put myself in this position again!

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Wow ! Many Congratulations , Mike

:D:D:D

What a great feeling it is to have WON!

It's good that your solicitor appreciated the work you had put in beforehand , and thanks for your kind acknowledgement of all who helped you on the forum - it's great to get a result and hear your feedback ... it'll encourage others who are in the position you were in to keep plugging away until they get there .

All the best to you for the future Mike , enjoy your new beginning ! :)

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Nemo me impune lacessit

 

 

Advice & opinions given by johnnymitch are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

 

 

If you think I've helped you please feel free to tickle my star :-D

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