Lloyds threatening court

[head out of the sand]

Hi all,

 

I am new to this site and have had some great help already to help come to a solution, rather than my house being taken.

 

I have run up a large debt with Lloyds on my bank account and Lloyds credit card. These were my main accounts with regular credits and payments going back over 15 years.

 

In April I left my employer and have only recently found work. Unfortunately I am now 4 months behind any credits going in and as you can imagine charges etc. have added up to collosal amounts.

 

Lloyds have now given me 7 days to pay the lot or go to court. I really dont want to go to court and am willing to start to make repayments (although begrudge the charges)

 

My 2 questions are :

 

Should I CCA the credit card before I enter into any dialogue or will they go straight to court ?(only found out about CCA here on this site)

 

Any advice on the bank overdraft debt and how to deal with this ?

 

Over the years I have had 4 loans with Lloyds all repaid and all with missold PPI - should I bring this into the fray ??

 

I am truly grateful for any help as it is about time I took this seriously and made a difference to our lives.

[42man]

Yes CCA the credit card....ASAP....

 

As for the overdraft, I would start the charge reclaim process ASAP too....don't forget to add 8% compounded interest to each of the charges..

 

And yes reclaim the PPI too....

Send the CCA request first separately and then send the SAR

[head out of the sand]

WOW - thanks 42 man for a speedy, useful response.

 

If I start these processes will they automatically allay their court action or will they proceed as norm ??

 

Will be undertaking all of the relevant paperwork by cob today.

 

Thanks again.

[42man]

I think they may proceed as normal....but keep us posted....if you need any help, please shout....

[head out of the sand]

Update from me - thanks 42 man for previous post

 

Have sent seperate CCA & SAR to lloyds ref credit card, loans (with PPI) & 3 bank accounts.

 

Received letters today from Sechiari, Clark & Mitchell saying they wanted me to pay off the balance or they attach to my earnings, a warrant of execution or a charging order. Is this real or a threat ??

 

Roughly (if they can produce CCA) I owe Lloyds 13k ish and they want it.

 

I reckon (soon to be backed up) they have illegally had £15k in PPI & probably £10k in bank charges across the 3 accounts (I know its bad!!)

 

Do I now send the account in dispute letter ?? (does anyone have a template ?)

 

Any advice on how I proceed will be gratefully received. I think I have a good case to sort this out and I am no longer using any of the accounts or cards with Lloyds- back to basics elsewhere.

[42man]

When the 12+2 working days is up send this to Lloyds....(they have 40 days to reply to your S.A.R - (Subject Access Request))...

 

Send by recorded....and edit as required

 

Account In Dispute

 

Ref:

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/xx, the contents of which have been noted.

 

You have failed to respond to my legal request to supply me a true copy of the original Consumer Credit Agreement for the above account.

 

On **DATE** I made a formal request for a true signed agreement for the alleged account under consumer credit Act 1974 s77/8. A copy of which is enclosed for your perusal and ease of reference.

You have failed to comply with my request, and as such the account entered default on **DATE**.

 

The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the executed agreement that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreement contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document.In addition a full statement of this account should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the account.

 

Furthermore

 

 

You are aware that the Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for a request for a true copy of a credit agreement to be carried out before your client enters into a default situation.

 

This limit has expired.

 

As you are no doubt aware section 77(6) states:

 

If the creditor fails to comply with Subsection (1)

 

(a) He is not entitled , while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

 

Therefore this account has become unenforceable at law.

 

As you have Failed to comply with a lawful request for a true, signed copy of the said agreement and other relevant documents mentioned in it, Failed to send a full statement of the account and Failed to provide any of the documentation requested.

 

Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both UNLAWFUL and VEXATIOUS.

 

Furthermore I shall counterclaim that any such action constitutes unlawful harassment.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter as a statutory notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect.

 

This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies.

 

Should you refuse to comply, you must within 21 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data.

 

It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’; You must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you not respond within 14 days I expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

Action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit.

You have 14 days from receiving this letter to contact me with your intentions to resolve this matter which is now a formal complaint.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

 

********************************************

 

 

And then send this to the solicitors...

 

Dear Sirs

 

I refer to your letter of XXXXX 2008 which was received today.

 

Frankly, I am surprised of the need to advise a firm of solicitors about the terms and conditions surrounding my Consumer Credit Agreement request (Consumer Credit Act, 1974); dated XXXX 2008 for which I have proof of receipt . I can only assume therefore that they failed to inform you of their non compliance. Your client had until (date - 12+2 working days from date of sending CCA request) to comply with a legal request.

 

Should your client persist with threats of legal action as stated in your letter, I will welcome the opportunity for a judge to look at several defaults committed by HSBC under The Consumer Credit Act, 1974, as well as your client’s non-compliance with and total disregard for, both the banking code and OFT guidelines.

 

Also please note that I will ONLY communicate in writing, any calls made to me will be classed as harrassment and treated as such.

 

Yours faithfully / for ever / with love / in anticipation of a short and fruitless banking relationship (choose the first if I were you !!!)

[head out of the sand]

Well 42man - I would want you in my corner for any arguments, thanks for some superb letters.

 

I totally understand my plan of attack on the credit card debt and presume the 12 +2 is to allow for weekend days.

 

They seem to be chasing harder for my overdraft as I owe the credit card 7k and about the same in overdrafts (across the 3 accounts)

 

Should I address the overdrafts in the same manner ???

 

Thanks again.

[42man]

If they are with the same original creditor then the SAR should cover EVERYTHING.....

 

Bear in mind the agreement request is only used for loans/credit cards and is not relevant for overdrafts/business accounts/business credit cards/bank accounts.....

 

This is the legislation for the agreement request (taken from the Consumer Credit Act 1974)

 

Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations

1983 (SI 1983/1569)

2 Prescribed period

The period of 12 working days is hereby prescribed for the purposes of each provision of the Act specified in Column 1

of the Schedule to these Regulations relating to the duty indicated in Column 2 in relation to regulated agreements

 

 

SCHEDULE

SECTIONS OF THE ACT IN RESPECT OF WHICH A PERIOD OF 12 WORKING DAYS IS PRESCRIBED RELATING TO DUTIES IN

RELATION TO REGULATED AGREEMENTS

Regulation 2

Section of the

Act

Duty

(1) (2)

77(1) Duty to give information to debtor under fixed-sum credit agreement.

78(1) Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement.

79(1) Duty to give information to hirer under consumer hire agreement.

and section 78 for running credit

 

 

78.

Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement.

— (1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of [F1 £1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a)

the state of the account, and

 

(b)

the amount, if any currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

 

©

the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

 

 

(2) If the creditor possesses insufficient information to enable him to ascertain the amounts and dates mentioned in subsection (1)©, he shall be taken to comply with that paragraph if his statement under subsection (1) gives the basis on which, under the regulated agreement, they would fall to be ascertained.

 

(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to—

(a)

an agreement under which no sum is, or will or may become, payable by the debtor, or

 

(b)

a request made less than one month after a previous request under that subsection relating to the same agreement was complied with.

 

 

(4) Where running-account credit is provided under a regulated agreement, the creditor shall give the debtor statements in the prescribed form, and with the prescribed contents—

(a)

showing according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer, the state of the account at regular intervals of not more than twelve months, and

 

(b)

where the agreement provides, in relation to specified periods, for the making of payments by the debtor, or the charging against him of interest or any other sum, showing according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer the state of the account at the end of each of those periods during which there is any movement in the account.

 

 

(5) A statement under subsection (4) shall be given within the prescribed period after the end of the period to which the statement relates.

 

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a)

he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement

 

 

 

(7) This section does not apply to a non-commercial agreement, and subsections (4) and (5) do not apply to a small agreement

 

The SAR is a legal request under the Data Protection Act and is only a request for information....

 

http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/library/data_protection/practical_application/subject_access_-_guide_for_data_subjects.pdf

[head out of the sand]

Thanks again.

 

I am all over the credit card section and happy to proceed as per your advice. Will wait then hit them with your letters.

 

Have I any legal arguments on them chasing their (?) £7k in overdrafts ??

I am owed that and more in charges, although cannot confirm that until the SAR is received.

 

And then I would still be unsure maybe put in a dispute saying I owe you £7k in overdrafts however you owe me £10k in charges ???

 

Sorry to be a pain - just trying to 2nd guess and understand my stance going forward.

[42man]

Are you still dealing with the bank directly or has this gone to a debt collection agency ?

 

Have you raised a dispute already with the bank ?

[head out of the sand]

Hi,

 

Being honest now I have done pretty much nothing, I was expecting to find work quicker and make up the payments.

I am happy to start making repayments now I am in work, although they will not be as much as they want as gotta catch up the mortgage, secured loans etc. too

 

I have had written communication with Lloyds and more recently and more threatening from the solictors acting on behalf of Lloyds (think they may be something to do with Lloyds as address very similar)

[42man]

You must move on this ASAP.....as if the debt isn't disputed, then they will issue court proceedings...

[head out of the sand]

Ok I have been really burying my head but since the job started & our first child was born (what a few months) & I am now doing everything I can to remedy the situation.

 

I understand the credit card process for now and just need some more help (sorry) understanding the overdraft debt situation.

 

Should I wait for the SAR to return and then follow the process LBA etc. although I fear they wil CCJ me

 

OR

 

Stick in an account in dispute letter now on the basis that I know my charges are more than my debt on these accounts.

Maye call the sols and tell them

 

OR

 

Any other ideas - todays letter says call them today with a reason not to pay, or pay it all or legal instructions are started.

 

Sorry 42 man I know I have been sloppy at a difficult time and now just trying to minimise damage whilst trying to support my young family.

[head out of the sand]

Sorry to bump but could really do with some quick help to get these additional letters out asap.

 

Cheers

[havinastella]

Sorry to bump but could really do with some quick help to get these additional letters out asap.

 

Cheers

 

 

Hi HOOTS,

 

To be quite honest, you really need for Lloyds to issue the Court papers.

 

This will help on two issues

 

1) You won't have to fork out the costs for issuing your claim to reclaim your own charges.

 

2) If they do issue Court papers you don't have to wait in the 'stayed' queue for your payout.

 

You won't even have to pay to issue a counterclaim, as you would defend using 'offset'

 

This is just a very small point but it will save you a bit of money upfront on court fees.

 

If you make a counter claim you also have to pay a court fee.

 

However, if you say that, as part of your defence, you have the right of equitable set-off of these charges against the amount claimed then you are counter-claiming the charges but you don't need to pay the fee

 

 

 

If anybody is interested here is a bot about the different types of set-off:-

 

The 1958 Court of Appeal decision in the case of Hanak -v- Green is regarded as one of the key decisions defining the modern law of set-off. It may now be said there are four forms in which a set-off can arise: 1) Mutual liquidated debts (sometimes called legal set-off). A cross claim can be set-off as a defence if the amount of the debt is known or can be readily and without difficulty ascertained. 2) Equitable set-off (sometimes called transaction set-off). The test as to whether a cross claim can be relied upon as an equitable set-off is whether it is so closely connected with the claim that it would be manifestly unjust to allow the claim without taking into account the cross claim. 3) Contractual set-off. The contract may dictate certain procedures that must be observed to preserve the right to apply a set-off 4) Statutory set-off. For example, under rule 4.90 of the Insolvency Rules 1986 an employer can set-off any claims it can prove against monies owing to an insolvent contractor.

 

 

 

 

Hope this helps

 

JOgs

[head out of the sand]

JOgs - top effort, thanks so much..

 

To recap Lloyds probably owe me about £5-10k more than I owe them but I would happily off set and can talk this through and document when we get near court as have already done the SAR ?

 

In opinions only would you suggest that I continue down the CCA route and put the credit card as in dispute ? If no reply my opinion is I probably will.

 

Thanks for your time and support

[havinastella]

Hi hoots,

 

It's always good to have all the paperwork to hand. Trying to get a full SAR from Lloyds is like looking for chickens with teeth though.

 

I'd send for the SAR and CCA, it's all more ammo to throw at Sechiari Clark & Mitchell.

 

Jogs

[head out of the sand]

Thanks Jogs,

 

I fully understand everything, aside from whether I should put the credit card into dispute, until we resolve the CCA issue OR let them issue papers on that also - as I think they will issue seperately.

 

Sorry to be a pain just want to have all of my information to hand.

 

Thanks again

[head out of the sand]

Hi all,

 

Thought I would update you all.

 

Unbelievably Lloyds have already sent the loan information from the SAR and my alledged PPI mis sales equate to £13k including the interest - I have had some great support from my PPI chain.

 

Predictably I am on my 12 + 2 today and have received no signed agreement from my CCA - I am therefore going to put the credit card into dispute.

 

On the bank account front, Sechari etc. etc. (Lloyds henchmen) have written another letter saying they are willing to re-negotiate before court now and have offered me a 6 month prove you are a good boy contract wanting £130 per month vs my 7.5k ish debt.

 

Should I still brave it out and wait for the court to plead the off set case (as havingastella previous thread) or start to pay them ???

I have not received my account charges although would expect this to be in the £10k territory across all of my old Lloyds accounts.

 

Thanks for your time.

[havinastella]

Hi Hoots,

 

It's entirely up to you.

 

I would personally write to Sechari etc etc and refuse their kind offer and once again invite them to start Court Proceedings. (ONCE AGAIN, this is just what I would do)

 

I would also start the reclaim process for the unfair charges ASAP!!!

 

Have you started a PPI claim, Check that forum for the letter I have just sent lloyds with regards to my Mis Selling claim.

 

You know what you have to do with the Credit card, so thats ok.

 

Good luck

 

JOgs

[head out of the sand]

To be honest I was thinking the same. Would rather deal with it all together and if that means court, and I would rather it did not but so be it.

 

In your opinion would you tell Sechari... that I am happy to go to court on the basis that under the off set precident I am owed ... also ??

 

I cannot start the unfair charges as have only received my loan information from the SAR.

 

Only got this couple of days ago and tried to figure out the calculator so would be very interested in your letter if you have a template or link to your thread ?? - I can then get the letter out today.

 

Thanks again..

[42man]

I would write to Sechiari's in no uncertain terms that Lloyds Bank owe you more than you owe them....and you can state that you would instantly counter claim and when it came to the matter of costs you will show the judge the result of your subject access request made under the data protection act....