PCN for pay and display in rear windscreen

[blarf]

Last week I was issued a PCN from North Herts District Council for parking in a pay and display but not having my ticket on the dashboard (I put it on the parcel shelf where it was easier to see). The pay and display ticket says display on the dashboard but the boards by the paying machines where the other Ts&Cs are (cost, hours of charges etc) displayed say nothing about where it must be displayed.

 

I appealed online and got a rejection to challenge letter this morning saying they'll be "happy to reconsider" if I provide the pay and display ticket as evidence. I think they might just accept the appeal but I want to make the point about the info in the car park too. Do you think it's a valid point that I can't be expected to check the ticket when the primary source of information on the parkign Ts&Cs are on the signs by the ticket machines?

TIA

[Guest Ting]

From what you have said you will have little trouble in getting it cancelled - i find that interesting as i will explain. Meanwhile if you want to make your 'point' you are wasting your time. They won't be interested or care.

 

The reason i'm interested is their offer to cancel and basically asking you to help them do so. Seen it before. It normally means that something else is wrong and they know it!

 

Any chance i could see the PCN please - all of it. Not got one from them and i will add it to my database to help other people.

 

Thanks. For now, just do as they ask.

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[lamma]

keep the original ticket, send them a sign photocopy. Councils have been know to 'lose' things like this (i.e. things that will negate the PCN)

[patdavies]

Any conditions on the ticket are effectively void as you cannot access them without first purchasing a ticket.

 

All that matters is the TRO. I would also be tempted to ask how a ticket is to be displayed on a vehicle without a dashboard (m/cycle for example)

[blarf]

Thanks everyone, I'll scan in the PCN and post it today or tomorrow Ting.

 

I'm doing a basic law course ATM and for my own interest can anyone tell me ... Am I right in thinking that the parking is just a basic contract and effectively by me paying for the ticket that is what the legal profession would call "consideration" and the contract is complete. The note on the ticket is changing the terms of the contract and therefore irrelevant.

 

Pat - I don't think you can park motorcycles in the car park and the ticket would certainly blow away if you tried (they aren't adhesive).

[green_and_mean]

Pat - I don't think you can park motorcycles in the car park and the ticket would certainly blow away if you tried (they aren't adhesive).

 

Maybe thats why its called a CARpark?

[Guest Ting]

Thanks everyone, I'll scan in the PCN and post it today or tomorrow Ting.

 

I'm doing a basic law course ATM and for my own interest can anyone tell me ... Am I right in thinking that the parking is just a basic contract and effectively by me paying for the ticket that is what the legal profession would call "consideration" and the contract is complete. The note on the ticket is changing the terms of the contract and therefore irrelevant.

 

Pat - I don't think you can park motorcycles in the car park and the ticket would certainly blow away if you tried (they aren't adhesive).

 

If it really is a PCN from a Council then you are on completely the wrong track. Contract has nothing to do with it. Relevant legislation is that which applies to decriminalised parking, civil parking enforcement as it is now known.

 

Want the statute?

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[blarf]

Hi Ting,

Thanks for the offer, I'm pretty sure I have the statue, kindly provided by NHDC (aren't they kind?).

Anyway, as promised here are the scanned images of the front and back of the PCN.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o129/sammykaye_photo/misc/Picturefront.jpg

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o129/sammykaye_photo/misc/Picture001.jpg

[Guest Ting]

Interesting. Couple of points.

 

I may have missed it but i couldn't see where it complied with CEoPC (Eng) reps and Appeals Regs 2007, Part 2, Reg 3, para (2) (b) (i) ???

 

Link here.

 

The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007 No. 3482

 

technically - failing to comply with the requirements of the law renders it invalid. Adjudicator might decide it's too minor an issue though.

 

Interesting wording to describe the payment and reps periods. there is case law where it was ruled that the use of the word 'within' effectively added an extra day - hence not compliant.

I have no idea why Councils can't just stick to the wording they are given - a simple copy and paste job. Why vary it?

However, according to my understanding of English the way they have used 'within' in this case is actually a correct description of the statutory period because they make the start point clear.

If you look at their website you will see the erroneous version "within 14/28 days of" the crucial word there being 'of'. If you understand you will see that it equates to 15/29 days. Another version that used to be seen commonly was 'within' in conjunction with another crucial word 'from'.

 

Next issue concerns acting as 'Enforcement Authority'. When TMA was introduced it had so many balls-ups it was embarrassing. They've been putting sticking plasters on it ever since. It was intended, for instance, to be used for all decrim enforcement including buslanes and MTCs. they still haven't managed to sort it out so London Boroughs are using a wide selection of older legislation.

The point for you is that TMA forgot to define District Councils as enforcement authorities. They have had, after some jiggling with the legalities, to act as agents - either for County Councils or one case i saw, the Districts acted as agents for a Borough Council. Metropolitan Borough Councils are ok.

I'm not sure what progress they've made in correcting it. Point is NHDC are clearly acting as the enforcement authority and I'm not sure they can? they don't mention acting as agents for the CC?

Something you'll have to research for yourself mate.

 

full statutes are available via the 'opsi' site. Type title in search box. TMA is a load of waffle that gives no info on PCNs. that is all in the accompanying regs.

When searched - the CEoPC Regs - for one of them it is the 30K size document you want and the other is the 33k - can't remember which is which of hand and have wittered enough so I'm not going back to find out!!!

 

PCN contents are detailed mainly in the Schedule to the Gen Regs.

 

Have fun.

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[robert_harper_2000]

I reckon as long as it was displayed, surely nothing they could say? Mine was on my dashboard and when I think about it, why wasn't that considered properly displayed!

[Guest Ting]

Their photo evidence will be interesting.

 

he may well have had a good reason for displaying like that, i.e. nose of the car up to a hedge or similar?

 

It seems clear to me that they actually want to cancel it anyway.

 

PS (re what I said earlier about them acting as Enforcement Authority and whether they actually could. --- I forgot that only applies to on-street parking, not car parks.)

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[Rob S]

Maybe thats why its called a CARpark?

 

So how would you fare if you parked a van in a car park?