TETSUO Vs MBNA (they with the upper hand!)

[TETSUO]

It's time to start playing the long game with MBNA

 

Quick summary...

 

1 - I have well over £11,000 of debt on two MBNA credit cards (both cards over limits)

 

2 - I can't afford to keep paying them (interest rate gone from 14.9% to 34.9% in two years!) Minimum payment equivalent to throwing £300 a month into a pit!

 

3 - Was lucky enough to come into a little bit of money (about £7000) and offered them that as full and final settlement - they refused.

 

4- Gave them a breakdown of my incomings / outgoings (the 'out' being £300 a month higher than the 'in') They said I could stall afford to pay - pro-rata ??!!

 

5 - I stopped paying them (August 2008)

 

6 - Requested a CCA - which they provided, and appears to be enforceable (one copy attached for those who want to view this rare beast (an enforceable MBNA CCA))

 

7 - Received telephone call yesterday advising me that I am about to go into default and did I still have £7000. I told them "no" as I had paid off another creditor and only have a percentager of this left.

 

8 - S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) request sent for both accounts yesterday

 

So, my credit rating is about to be destroyed, so I guess I have nothing to lose now. Should I just ignore them, wait for them to sell to a DCA and negotiate wih them? I must admit to being totally dismayed about the credit file thing, but I will not live like a pauper, eating cold beans out of a tin, just so i can make minimum payments to those greedy b******s at MBNA.

 

Thoughts / experiences greatly appreciated

MBNA CCA.pdf

Edited October 9, 2008 by TETSUO
typos

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello TETSUO!

 

Well, have they still got the Original Document, that is the question.

 

If not, then it's not quite an instant victory for them.

 

The thing looks like a Microfiche Scan...note the dark black areas around the edges of the first page.

 

In that case, doubt starts to creep in. If they start coming for you, then this Thread may be of interest:

 

Getting Them To Reveal Their Vitals. Using CPR 31.14 to Your Advantage

 

The key is to establish if you can throw any doubt on that Agreement. After all, if they no longer have it, how can anyone tell it's not some cobbled together thing that they are trying to pass off as an Enforceable Agreement.

 

If you question its validity, and they can't come up with some blinding reasons to confirm it is genuine, then you may yet turn the tables on them.

 

Finally, best to avoid using the Telephone with this bunch. Keep everything in writing from now on, and keep all Envelopes of any Letters or Default Notices they send you.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[TETSUO]

thanks brw..will read the link you posted. As for your microfiche comment... i totally agree, and is exactly what i believe it is. On the back of the first page is a barcode and some text saying "your credit limit is £5000"

 

this is the same on both agreements, and looks, as you put it; "cobbled together"

 

Will update accordongly.

 

thanks for your support and positive advice.

 

TET

[AA99]

Tet, have a look at mine AA99 v MBNA, right behind you with this one........

[TETSUO]

will do.. My workload today is quite boring and the boss is out

[TETSUO]

had an interesting letter from MBNA this morning. It went something like this....

 

Dear Mr Tetsuo,

 

Account number: blahblahblah

 

We have not received payment from you despite reimnders blah blah..

 

We were recently advised that you moved, but as you have not informed us of your new address, or left a forwarding address, we must assume that you are attempting to avoid payment.

 

unless you contact us within ten days blah blah blah we will have no choice but to...

 

1 - Get the heavies to track you down and get all our money

2 - Charge you for the costs involved blah blah

3 - Refer you to our fraud investigations department blah blah

 

Please contact us immediately on 01244 62946

 

Lots of love

 

Matthew blahblah

Head of Pointless Correspondence

 

******

 

Bless 'em.. I haven't moved, never suggested I have, and don't intend to any time soon.

 

Are these people on crack?? Why send me a letter to an address that I have allegedly moved from?

 

Bunch of freaks...

 

Should I call them and point this out, or take the risk of sending a letter monday and risk a visit from their colection Gorillas?

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello TETSUO!

 

Should I call them and point this out, or take the risk of sending a letter monday and risk a visit from their colection Gorillas?

 

I would not advise that you Call them, as that is clearly what they want, and you don't want to be doing what they want, now do you!

 

But I can't say I've seen that one before. This may suggest they have been busy little banking beavers creating some new Threat Letters to add to, or to replace, some of their older Threat Letters. By responding, either way, this confirms their Letter was received, so they get the Confirmation of Address that may've been the real purpose of this Letter. Plus, as an added banking bonus, they may even get the chance to grab some Debit Card details from anyone that does Call!

 

However, given that it does contain a Threat to send someone around, it would be best to reply with the Harassment/No Visitors Letter. If you have not already done so, send them this...just edit, as needed, to fit your own situation:

 

In the event that you intend to escalate the above Harassment to include Doorstep calls by your Employees or your Agents, please be advised that under the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) Rules, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have absolutely no wish to make an appointment with you. There is no need, as Written Communication is quite acceptable in Law.

 

Please note, there is only an implied license under Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore, take note that I revoke license under Common Law for your Employees or Agents or Representatives to visit me at my property and, if any of the above does so, your Company will be liable to Damages for a Tort of Trespass and Civil Action will be taken.

 

On the other hand, if you have already sent them the Harassment/No Visitors Letter, then just do nothing, and file it under MBNA Harassment. I would advise that you keep the Envelope it came in, to keep your records fully up to date. Make a note on both Letter and Envelope when this was Received, as you want to build up a full History of every piece of correspondence from them.

 

Why?

 

Well, if/when they send you something important (for you) such as:

 

Default Notice.

Notice of Termination.

Court Claim Paperwork.

Notice of Assignment.

 

The Date of Posting could be very, very important. That's because the Date of Posting sets the Date of Service (see Section 7 Interpretation Act 1978). You may one day need all the evidence you can get to try and pin-point the Date of Posting.

 

Given that we know many bankers like to play games with Back-Dated Letters and/or Late Posting to give Consumers as little time as possible in which to respond, you would be wise to build up evidence that may show a pattern of abuse in this respect.

 

If you retain all Letters and all Envelopes, and link these via Received Date Stamps, your MBNA File will show a long track record of how long MBNA takes to get things to you. It'll also show a pattern of Letter Dates, to Received Dates, with the odd Postal Date thrown in if they use a Dated Franking Stamp. The aim is to one day pin-point as many Postal Dates as possible.

 

This History may one day help to swing a Judge into accepting that they failed to Serve you with something on time, especially if they cannot produce any Proof of Postage. IOW, if all of their other Letters show a pattern, then it may suggest they have been guilty of either back-dating Letters or extreme laziness in terms of Posting them.

 

If they have issued, say, a Default Notice, but before Posting it to you they elected to spend a week playing Golf before they could even be bothered to Post it to you, then it will not have reached you in sufficient time to be afforded the correct Statutory time limits for responding.

 

Of course, if it ever goes to Court, because they are a large sophisticated financial institution, they will just swear blind it was Posted on time. In Court, it'll then be their word against yours. However, if you have a nice fat Folder of Letters and Envelopes showing a clear pattern, them swearing blind might not have the desired effect in Court they were anticipating.

 

It'll go from a situation of their word against yours, to a situation of their word against your word backed up by a blurdy big Folder of Letters and Envelopes, all Dated to show when you received them, and all suggesting their word may not be worth diddly squat.

 

One day, that's if I can crack the Orange Royal Mail Postal Barcodes present on many Envelopes, these Envelopes may yet show a Date of Postage from the Barcodes (that's if a Barcode is present). Then the clear Evidence of delayed Posting will be there for anyone to see. This will not be hearsay evidence, it'll be 100% original hard Evidence.

 

In that case, them swearing blind they Posted on time will then be shown to be a Terminological Inexactitude. Telling Pork Pies in Court won't go down too well!

 

Finally, if anyone reading this works for Royal Mail, please make contact if you can shed any light on the Light Orange Routing Barcodes that appear on most Letters. I know these are not based on RM4SCC.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[TETSUO]

(thanks again BRW)

 

Ok, am sending this in response to theior letter.

 

Any glaring errors?

 

Dear Mr Blahblah,

 

Re:- Account / Reference Number blahblahblahblah

 

Thank you for your recent letter (copy attached).

 

 

I am somewhat confused by the content of this correspondence/harassment, as I haven’t, have never suggested, nor have any intention of moving from my current address.

 

 

I resent the tone of your letter and the suggestion that I am "attempting to evade payment". If you had bothered to check your records prior to sending this letter, you would have seen that I have attempted to negotiate a settlement with you on more than one occasion, but all attempts have met with a very short shrift from yourselves.

 

 

In the event that you intend to escalate the above Harassment to include Doorstep calls by your Employees or your Agents, please be advised that under the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) Rules, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have absolutely no wish to make an appointment with you. There is no need, as Written Communication is quite acceptable in Law.

 

Please note, there is only an implied license under Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore, take note that I revoke license under Common Law for your Employees or Agents or Representatives to visit me at my property and, if any of the above does so, your Company will be liable to Damages for a Tort of Trespass and Civil Action will be taken.

 

I trust that the above is clear to you. If, however, you require further clarification, please do not hesitate to request this in writing.

Yours faithfully

 

Mr Tetsuo

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello TETSUO!

 

Any glaring errors?

 

Looks fine, only one minor tweak: if you know the banker's name and start by saying Dear right banker, then it should really end with Yours sincerely.

 

If OTOH, you don't know the name and start Dear Sir/Madam, then the Letter should really end with Yours faithfully.

 

But this doesn't matter that much, the banker won't know this, and probably won't read that far when he/she/it realises there is no Payment in the Envelope...it'll go straight through their Shredder on the way to the Bin.

 

However, so long as you keep a record of the Letter being sent/delivered, that is all that matters. That's the evidence that you warned them not to send any Doorstep Callers.

 

Then, if/when they do send someone up your Garden Path, you can thrust a copy of your No Visitors/Harassment/Trespass Letter right under their bugle, before ordering them back down your Garden Path and right off your Property.

 

Call the Police if they have a problem with leaving.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[TETSUO]

I always get the faithfully / sincerely the wrong way round! I sent it anyway (recorded delivery)

 

Came home to another letter tonight, telling me I am in big trouble and they are at the pointing of passing me off as "bad debt"

 

I'll post the full contents tomorrow

[AA99]

Tetsuo, ignore those letters, we've all had them, and and as BRW says, the formality oif the letters is, if it's Dear Sir, end with yours faithfully, if it's dear Mr blah blah, end with Yours Sincerely.........irrelevant about the English grammatical at this stage..................just get your point across...........

[TETSUO]

Ok, here is the other letter I got last night..

*******

Your Credit Card Accounts Are Seriously In Arrears...

And Time is Running Out

Dear Mr Tetsuo,

Unless you make payment arrangements, at least one of your MBNA accounts or those issued by MBNA on behalf of our affinity partners will soon be written-off as a bad debt. This will not relase you from your obligation to repay your total debt of £blahblah (over 11k) as listed below

(little chart with my 'bad debt' listed here!)

In addition to a Default being registered on your credit file, you should be aware of the consequences that could follow should we seel a County Court Judgement against you, which may include a Charging order, or an attachment of Earnings. If you are a resident of Scotland...blah, blah, blah..

Your failure to make timely payment arrangements forces us to consider all of our options. We are prepared to work with you, but need to hear from you. Please call your account Manager on blah, blah, blah

Lots of love,

A. Monkey

********

Soooo, I don't want to igniore this, but have had numerous conversations with these idiots with a view to sorting something out , but they aren't interested, and think I can pay them, despite having more going out than I have coming in.

I might just clarify that to them in a letter, and ask why they persist in asking me to call them to "make payment arrangements" when they have not been in the least but helpful when I have done just that.

[TETSUO]

Just for fun...

 

Put - MBNA interest rate rip off into GOOGLE and it returned 44000 results...

 

No surprise there then!!

[TETSUO]

Has anyone negotiated with MBNA via email. I understand why we don't talk to these dodgy types over the telephone, but the constant walking to the post office and paying for recorded delivery mail and, most of all, the time it is taking is somewhat tiring.

Can anyone suggest an emailable point of contact who I can contact?

Cheers

[AA99]

As far as I know, the emails all bounce back. It's got to be proof of delivery I think. It might be as well because there you have solid proof for legalities and besides, they are a bunch of bullying liars!

[TETSUO]

booo....

 

I might call them tonight anyway..... I know, I know, but I am impatient.

[AA99]

Do us all a favour though and ask for their full name, the name of the Manager who asked them to phone, verify all your security ID otherwise they are in breach of data protection act, tell them you are recording the call because your time wasted on them is worth £10 p.h. claimable. 8)

[TETSUO]

Do us all a favour though and ask for their full name, the name of the Manager who asked them to phone, verify all your security ID otherwise they are in breach of data protection act, tell them you are recording the call because your time wasted on them is worth £10 p.h. claimable. 8)

 

I thought better of it when I got home... I do feel a bit in limbo though. Their CCA is enforceable. I have another 30 days to wait until the SAR comes back - I'd rather negotiate a sensible (re-calculated) APR etc, and pay them back or wait and risc my credit rating being well and truly 5cr3wed (if it isn't aready) !

[TETSUO]

Got three more letters from them this moring - all threatening various horrible things... One of them was another "you've moved / evading debt" letter.

 

I decided to phone them and get this over with once and for all. I have offered to pay off one card, providing them re-calulate the interest to something more reasonable than 34.% and refund all charges. I would then begin making payment on the other card as well. This, I confirmed, would be my final offer to them, if this is rejected, they can do whatever they want, as I didn't care, and they wouldn't get a penny more out of me.

 

The person I spoke to was actually very pleasant - polite, apologetic and professional (he won't last long then). He is calling me back with an answer Monday evening (10 hours into his 13 hour shift!)

 

I did record the call.

 

Little tip - I used my mobile phone, but put the call on loadspeaker, then used my partners phone to record the call on the 'voice recorder' mode. SImply lieing the phones next to each other actually works surprisingly well. The clarity of the recording was very impressive, and I can save the file on my laptop by either bluetoothing it across or popping the phone's emory card straight in to the laptop.

 

SO, if like me, you are impatient to move things on, but want the security of recorded communication - this might be an option for you.

 

Cheers all

[AA99]

Good Move Tetsuo. We tried initally talking to them on the phone. Once or twice got a fairly decent chap to talk to but they don't seem to remember the calls and arrangements made and just keep getting bombarded with their new statements with new charges and interest on and new overlimit balances, and letters from DCA's and we are getting nowhere fast. I am persisting, however, with all 3 accounts.

 

Your enforcable CCA link showing yours doesn't seem to be there. Can you post it again for me please?

[TETSUO]

Good Move Tetsuo. We tried initally talking to them on the phone. Once or twice got a fairly decent chap to talk to but they don't seem to remember the calls and arrangements made and just keep getting bombarded with their new statements with new charges and interest on and new overlimit balances, and letters from DCA's and we are getting nowhere fast. I am persisting, however, with all 3 accounts.

 

Your enforcable CCA link showing yours doesn't seem to be there. Can you post it again for me please?

 

Yes of course :o)

MBNA CCA.pdf

[TETSUO]

weird thing is that I have not once been appraoched by DCA's of even their internal collection department. They seem to be playing nicely with me for the most part (for MBNA anyway) weeeeird!

[TETSUO]

so much fro my phone call. Nobody called, so I phoned them and asked for Ben *******, who was not in. When I pointed out that I had been promised a call at 6:00pm, I was told that one of my other two 'account managers' would call me...did they? did they f*** !!

 

It must be coming to something when you want MBNA to call you and they won't - hahah!

[toxicdebt]

Hi Tetsuo

 

You say your CCA is enforceable. Can I ask how you got conformation of its enforceability? I ask as i am about to start me verses MBNA my self and am reading up on similar cases. I wouldn't know an enforceable CCA from a non one.