Ncp Pay And Display Car Parking Fine - I Have A Pay And Display Ticket Though?

[MYOUNG1982]

Hello All,

 

I just wanted to send a quick message to ask whether it is possible to appeal against my Pay and Display NCP car parking fine. I received it on Saturday 4th October at around 9.30pm. I was having a meal with friends only opposite the car park. it was a 24 hour car park.

 

I paid for 2 hours parking and got back to discover a fixed penalty notice in those yellow covers on the windscreen. Quite annoyed really considering i had put a pay and display parking ticket on my dashboard inside the car, however it was an incredibly windy/wet night and upon getting back to the car it was in the driver side footwell. My only thoughts are it has blown off my dashboard and fallen to the floor out of view from the warden.

 

Can i put forward my case and send them the pay display ticket. I read on the back of the fixed penalty notice (two) Parked in a pay and display car park without clearly displaying a valid pay and display ticket. my argument is it was on display on dash but due to stormy weather and i can only presume my cars open air vents it fell to the floor? Or should i just simply send my pay and display ticket to them?

 

Many thanks for any advice given.

[MrShed]

Think the general advice on here would be to simply ignore this, as it is a PPC - they have little basis legally for levying this charge, and if it does go as far as taking you to court, then might be the time to produce the ticket.

[MYOUNG1982]

Think the general advice on here would be to simply ignore this, as it is a PPC - they have little basis legally for levying this charge, and if it does go as far as taking you to court, then might be the time to produce the ticket.

 

Thanks MrShed,

 

I'm a little naive to parking fines, what is a PPC?

[lamma]

NCP do enforce for councils in certain locations we need to see picture of the PCN - suitably washed if personal details. As a general point with dropped ticket issues it is always worth looking at the TRO/TMO/Off Street parking order. It has been known for the TRO/whatever to say words to the effect of 'must be displayed' and to miss out the 'must be displayed continuously'. this has been found. "Other TROs, whether by deliberate or accidental omission, do not contain a requirement continuously to display the ticket. The adjudicator in MW05001J made findings of fact that the appellant had bought and displayed a p&d ticket but that the ticket was no longer on display when the PA inspected the vehicle, having become dislodged, possibly when the boot was closed. The relevant provision of the TRO did not state that that the display of the ticket must continue throughout the duration of parking. This contrasted with the preceding article of the TRO (dealing with tickets displayed in different classes of vehicle) which stated in terms ? that the ticket “must be clearly displayed at all times”. The adjudicator concluded that the appellant had complied with all elements of the article relied upon and that no contravention had occurred." from The Joint Report of the Parking Adjudicators for England and Wales 2006

[MrShed]

A PPC is Private Parking company(as opposed to the council).

 

However, take more heed of what lamma is saying - he is much more knowledgeable on this stuff than me!

 

Basically the first point to figure out is whether the car park was private, or council(which will depend upon the PCN - the notice left on your car).

[MYOUNG1982]

My car was parked at a car park owned or managed by national car parks limited.

 

Appeals address is in Croydon, national car parks limited, notice processing, PO Box 1862, croydon, CR9 1SF.

 

the notice says (parked in a pay and display car park without clearly displaying a valid pay and display ticket).

 

It doesn't say continuously display or such.

 

I don't live too far from Croydon but don't really fancy driving up there to appeal.

[MrShed]

Sounds like PPC to me, in which case you can probably just ignore it - but await confirmation.

[MYOUNG1982]

Won't that just get me in a whole host more trouble and i'll end up paying £100 fine after 28 days rather than £50 within 14 days?

 

This is the car park

1. Crawley Boulevard East

Boulevard East Sp

Crawley

Rh10 1Xp

0845 050 7080

 

Car Park Finder - NCP Car Parks

[MrShed]

I'm sure someone will give you the more detailed rundown in due course.

 

But the general position is that these fines are unenforceable legally.

 

They cannot prove that you entered into a contract usually, as the signs are usually not displayed prominently enough to ensure that they can prove you read them.

 

They cannot prove that you are the driver as opposed to the keeper of the vehicle - and any "contract" was with the driver only not the keeper.

 

Most importantly, they can only legally enforce the actual cost to them of the breach of contract - which would be negligable, and certainly nowhere near the charge levied.

[lamma]

NCP uses P.O boxes for council enforcement. we need to see the PCN to see if it is council or 'fake'. You do NOT want to ignore a council ticket. Why on earth would you need to drive back there to appeal ? there is no need to do that.

[MrShed]

Basically, IF it is PPC(which as lamma says, you really should scan in the PCN and post it, suitably "washed" of details), then you can EITHER ignore them. Or, you can appeal, probably have the appeal denied(after all, it is a major revenue stream) THEN ignore them. Up to you - you could cut out a little bit of harrassment I guess by appealing on the slim chance that they accept it.

 

In any event, the chances of this being enforceable IF it is PPC are nigh on zero. Usually, you get a few letters then it is dropped - as they know they cannot enforce via court.

 

In any event - VITAL to ensure 100% that this is not a council fine, these are a completely different ballgame, and must not be ignored.

[MYOUNG1982]

Ok great, am uploading a photo just now.

 

this link should work

 

http://digitalvault.bt.com/media/guestView.jsp?user=littlelowingto&collectionName=42373-11cbfcf0aad-gemini02&screenName=M+YOUNG&lang=en&screenName=M%20YOUNG

[crem]

Link doesn't work for me MYOUNG. Can you re-check it and re-load if need be.

[pin1onu]

Ok great, am uploading a photo just now.

 

this link should work

 

http://digitalvault.bt.com/media/guestView.jsp?user=littlelowingto&collectionName=42373-11cbfcf0aad-gemini02&screenName=M+YOUNG&lang=en&screenName=M%20YOUNG

This link doesn't seem to be working. Can you check it please.

[MrShed]

Just for the avoidance of doubt....doesnt work for me either

[MYOUNG1982]

Link doesn't work for me MYOUNG. Can you re-check it and re-load if need be.

thanks guys,

 

here is another link

File 1: parking fine_0960.jpg

SendThisFile - File Download

[crem]

Well I found it first so everyone else has to find a new link to not work elsewhere.

[crem]

thanks guys,

 

here is another link

File 1: parking fine_0960.jpg

SendThisFile - File Download

 

Definately looks like a PPC to me so MrShed's advice seems valid.

[MYOUNG1982]

Great stuff. Do Traffic wardens/ticket inspectors write down the codes on the pay and display tickets on every car that has a ticket displayed? Just been out to the car to get the ncp ticket to scan in to show you but can't find it. A friend who drove to the same car park has a pay and display ticket, they arrived slightly earlier than us. Could I use his if it doesn't turn up. Bit worried now I might have to pay the fine. :S

[lamma]

I agree. PPC - and a naughty one at that. keep all paperwork and wait for them to write to you. What did the envelope the invoice was stuck to the car in look like ?

[MYOUNG1982]

I agree. PPC - and a naughty one at that. keep all paperwork and wait for them to write to you. What did the envelope the invoice was stuck to the car in look like ?

 

The envelope was yellow and black with Standard charge notice.

[Al27]

Private companies cannot issue fines ie. financial penalties, which is exactly what they are doing. They are merely trying to fine you for not displaying a ticket, which is unenforceable tosh.

 

If you bought an item in Woolworths, could the security guard demand to see your receipt and fine you if you didn't hand it over? No.

 

You've bought a ticket. End of story. You don't owe them a penny - it's a [problem].

 

Great stuff. Do Traffic wardens/ticket inspectors write down the codes on the pay and display tickets on every car that has a ticket displayed? Just been out to the car to get the ncp ticket to scan in to show you but can't find it. A friend who drove to the same car park has a pay and display ticket, they arrived slightly earlier than us. Could I use his if it doesn't turn up. Bit worried now I might have to pay the fine. :S

 

You're taking it too seriously. They're demanding money they are not entitled to. They're not even demanding money for you not paying - they're demanding money because you may not have displayed your ticket perfectly - there is nothing in law which entitles them to £60.

 

There is no 'fine' - you just have an unenforceable invoice. Even if you hadn't bought a ticket, they'd only be entitled to the cost of the ticket (say £2.50) ie. their actual loss. If you've bought a ticket, their losses are exactly £0.

 

There is no appeals procedure (this a private company), so your letter will be ignored and you will receive a template 'appeal rejected' letter back. But, for your piece of mind, feel free to send off a photocopy of the ticket off to them and write:

 

"Dear NCP

 

Re. parking charge number 123456

 

Please find enclosed a copy of the valid pay and display ticket."

 

Nothing else. No name, nothing. Then sit back and expect your template letter back, after which, this is what you do:

 

 

• do not pay

• do not contact them again

• expect 4 or 5 increasingly threatening letters, addressed to the registered keeper

• then expect a couple of letters from a debt collection agency.

• ignore the whole lot and then they will go away in a few months

[sameagle]

Appealing to another department of the company, [or even Council], that issued the ticket, is a bit like me asking my Barber if he thinks I need a haircut!

Sameagle

[MYOUNG1982]

Just to let you all know I got a letter the other day from NCP about my parking fine and it has been cancelled! It just goes to show you can appeal and be successful!

 

Great result!