CHANCEL REPAIRS Could cost you lots

[willowwood]

Thank you very much for your reply. I think we are unlucky in having a Solicitor who sees this as a profit-making opportunity, as she would charge £75 for the check. I enquired by e-mail direct to ChancelCheck and this is the reply I got:

 

"Unfortunately due to company policy and FSA regulations we have to comply with, we are unable to register private individuals. Please contact your solicitor and ask her to order the relevant policy on your behalf; the document can then be passed to you once the order process is complete.

I have attached a copy of our standard ChancelSure insurance premiums for your perusal.

My apologies we cannot be of assistance to you directly but I thank you for your interest in our services."

 

For us it's cheaper to just buy the insurance via our Solicitor whether we need it or not - assuming she doesn't expect to make a profit of similar proportions to that she makes from the checks.

 

Good luck with your own property purchase.

 

Willowwood.

[JonCris]

Willowood If the solicitor IS charging you £75 just for the 'check' Them they may be in breach of the Solicitors code of conduct.........Check with Law Society of England and Wales - Home

[willowwood]

Thanks for your comment. I have delved deeper with my solicitor, who didn't know herself why it was so expensive. It now seems they offer a more in depth search and report for £75, but it does'nt sound like money well spent to me. Help received from you and other members has put me on the right track.

Willowwood.

[JonCris]

willowood my advice is to get the insurance

[pommymike]

Hopefully there will soon be legislation to abolish chancel repair liability. The General Synod of the Church said it wanted this 20 years ago but it requires legislation. Unfortunately the Government has instead revived it by requiring the rights of the Church to be registered by 2013.

The Transitional Provisions Order that was signed by the Lord Chancellor arguably was beyond his powers as there was nothing in the Land Registration Act 2002 about chancel repair liability. This was because the Court of Appeal had decided it was against human rights law and Parliament was happy with this decision, but then the House of Lords judicial committee decided otherwise. The Government then brought in Transitional Provisions making the rights registrable, but this was done several months AFTER the Act had been passed, and Parliament had not debated it at all!!

You can read more on the Wallbanks' website:

Church of England Bankrupts Family - Home

You can also sign the petition on the No 10 Downing Street website:

Petition to: abolish the liability upon landowners to pay for the repair of church chancels.

 

If I am right about the Lord Chancellor being wrong, this is important as it means that chancel repair liability is no longer an overriding interest whcih means that anyone buying a property when there is no notice registered at the Land Registry is not affected by it.

 

I believe that was what Parliament intended and as the Transitional Provisions Order is invalid that is now the legal position, and this can be confirmed either by a judicial review or by a court finding there is a defence to a claim.

 

Of course the church is not actually bringing claims very often at all, and I think the Aston Cantlow case was the only one where there was any dispute over this. The insurers have greatly exaggerated the risk.

[ladyfox]

I am in the process of buying a new home and have found that I need to get insurance for chancel repairs, but how do you know how much cover you need. Is it calculated on the value of the house.

[Pliny the Penuriosus]

Your conveyancer will be able to advise you

[StormWarrior]

This all seems to result from the 'lay rector' clause in the original deeds.

If it was me, I'd take up my position with a vengence, and preach long and hard in the church.

Given that I do not hold what would be called 'traditional christian values', I'm sure I would be soon relieved of the position, and hence the responsibility

[Pliny the Penuriosus]

This all seems to result from the 'lay rector' clause in the original deeds.

If it was me, I'd take up my position with a vengence, and preach long and hard in the church.

Given that I do not hold what would be called 'traditional christian values', I'm sure I would be soon relieved of the position, and hence the responsibility

 

No you wouldn't but a nice try nevertheless

[pommymike]

As I mentioned in a previous post on 29 March, I think reform of the law is likely. I have spoken to an official at the Ministry of Justice who says a report is being prepared for Vera Baird MP the Under Secretary of State responsible for civil law, Law Commisson proposals and the Land Registry.

 

This might therefore be a good time to write to your MP about this and also sign the petition on the No 10 website which I mentioned in a previous post.

 

I have also contacted the Church Commissioners who confirm the Church of England is not opposed to reform but would expect to get compensation from the Government to help pay for church repairs. English Heritage already pays for some repairs and the Law Society has suggested a one off Government grant to the Church would settle this so that conveyancers can stop wasting time reporting and advising on this.

 

The law is long overdue for reform, after all tithes rentcharges were finally abolished in 1936, when the Goverment provided loan stock to compensate the Church, paid for from tithe redemption annuities.

 

These in turn were abandoned in 1977 and most tithes and rentcharges were commuted by capital payments over 100 years ago. It was mainly the receipt of tithe income on behalf of the Church that made landowners liable for chancel repairs. There is no justification for it now.

 

The Government abolished church rates in about 1867, so it can hardly claim that it is unprecedented for the Government to interfere with the historical fiscal claims and customary rights of the Church.

[JonCris]

The hypocrisy of this government via English Heritage knows no bounds. Before they will grant funds for church repair they demand that the church 1st impose it's chancel repair rights.

[Guest Gertie100]

Does anyone know if any Chancel insurance has actually paid out?

Whilst I see that the cost of insurance is less than the search, do we have proven evidence that this insurance is worth anything?

[JonCris]

No one knows, apart from them, but I suppose it's like the 1st person to insure that new contraption the horseless carraige.

 

Dont insure it because you don't think you will need it, then when you do need it it'll be to late.

 

Anyway it's not compulsory but any conveyancer NOT advising a Chancel Search (you don't have to take it) COULD find themselves being sued should it all go pear shaped later

 

Also it's worth mentioning that the church has until 2013 to register ALL properties which are affected & once registered you can't get insurance

[Blondie6292]

A Chancel search has come back saying the property I am looking to buy 'is located within the historical boundary of a tithe district within a parish which continues to have a potential chancel repair liability.' My solicitor has recommended a more detailed search which would show if the property has potential liability.

 

If this search comes back telling me there is no potential liability, does this mean that the church will NEVER be able to register their interest in the property or does it just mean they haven't done so yet?

 

Also, is this search the only way of finding out if the Church has already registered their interest in the property?

 

HELP!!!! I am gutted as we really want this property but if we can't sell it in the future then I guess we will have to pull out.

[JonCris]

Blondie what is your Solicitor thinking of. For goodness sake DON'T! conduct a detailed search. If you do confirm that it's at greater risk than you have already you WON'T be able to get insurance plus your solicitor will be duty bound by law to register it as such with the Land Registery thereby doing the church's job for them.

 

Though as many on this site know I hate insurance companies with a passion my strongest advice is to insure it then you will have piece of mind.

 

Also youi could use that info to get the vendor to drop their price at least to the equivalent of the insurance premuim

[Blondie6292]

I have spoken to my solicitor today who told me it was the advice of the 'firm' that i should have a detailed search BUT she said if it was her she would more than likely take the insurance.

 

You have to wonder, as I am looking to buy in a specific town, how would I know the same search wouldn't come back as potential liability on another property?! and how many times would you pull out of a purchase based on this search?

 

Well, we have decided to take out the insurance and try to forget about it. I hope that if the church did come knocking on my door, that firstly it wouldn't just be my door (!) and that there would be enough people in the same boat to lessen the blow.

 

If thousands of properties are deemed worthless due to this registered liability, won't the housing market grind to halt, as there will be so many people unable to sell their property?

 

I guess if this happens to me and i want to move, i will just have to rent it out and buy another place. Not exactly what i wanted but don't want to lose money on a property either! Mind you, by that time the govt would've increased the tax on rental property so you may as well take the loss and sell.

 

Thanks v much for your advice!

[JonCris]

1st her 'firm' are wrong to suggest a more detailed search for the reasons previously posted.

 

2nd if you have insurance there will be no problem and 3rd its a bit like car insurance. you take it out whilst at the same time hoping you won't need it & you might not

[bdc21]

We are in the process of selling our house and our solicitors have informed us that a chancel search has revealed that our house is the boundary of a parish with chancel repairs. The buyers solicitors are now asking us to pay indemnity insurance to protect the buyers - is this in our best interests to secure the sale or should we inform the buyer we are not prepared to pay????????

[Pliny the Penuriosus]

bd I think the buyers solicitors might be under the mistaken belief that you can purchase the insurance. I don't think the insurance is transferable their clients have to take out the cover. Or are they are asking you to reduce your price to accommodate the cost. If so only you can make that choice & whats a couple a hundred quid in the scheme of things

[Aequitas]

An important point not mentioned is that whilst the liability attaches to each part of the land affected, the unfortunate owner singled out by the church to foot the bill has a right of indemnity against all the other owners who have the liabilty. Not a lot of comfort as he actually has to claim the money and rather daunting if there is a large number to claim against.

 

One wonders if any insurance company required to pay out will claim rights of subrogation and seek contributions from the other owners.

[Pliny the Penuriosus]

NO the insurance company will only pay their insureds portion of the repair bill.

 

The Church will still have to chase any others liable for the Chancel repair

[Aequitas]

My understanding is that all affected land owners are jointly and severally liable, i.e the church can claim the whole amount from any one of the owners. Anecdotal evidence suggests that they always go for whoever they think is most likely to have the cash.

[Pliny the Penuriosus]

No

8. Calculation of individual liability

When the tithe area or areas burdened with a liability for chancel repairs have been identified and it is desired to answer the question 'What is A's liability?’ all that is involved is a simple arithmetical calculation. Paragraph 3 of the Record of Ascertainments gives the proportionate liability for each penny of the tithe rentcharge shown in the Schedules in respect of each tithe area involved - in the Watford example, the proportionate liability is given as 1/205499.An area with a rentcharge of £1 5s 6dwill therefore carry with it a proportionate liability of 306/205499: 306 is arrived at by adding 240 (the number of old pence in £1), 60 (the number of old pence in five shillings) and 6 pence. The appropriate fraction in respect of any area will be used to compute the proportion of the total expenditure required to carry out repairs to the chancel. The resulting amount will be that to be demanded of the owner of the area. Assuming repairs to cost £5,000, therefore, the amount to be demanded in this example would be £7.44. The Record of Ascertainments makes it possible to determine the proportions in which liability is to be borne, but not the amount to be demanded at any particular time. There is no means of foretelling what the actual amount to be demanded will be on any occasion when repairs are required.

[Aequitas]

"It was clear from recent authorities that a lay improprietor was liable even if he was not owner of the entirety of the rectorial property."

[The Parish Church Council of Aston Cantlow etc v Wallbank and another]

"The liability of a lay impropriator of a tithe rentcharge to pay the costs of the repair of the chancel of a parish church is personal and several and not joint and is not limited to the amount of the tithe rent received by him."

[Wickhambrook Parochial Church Council v. Croxford.]

See https://secure.clsl.co.uk/background.php#s5

[pommymike]

It is very common for chancel check searches to reveal what this one reveals but extremely rare for a church to claim payments from someone who is unaware of any liability. The press office of the Church of England has said it is unaware of any church ever having done so. If you have lived in the house for a good number of years and you are unaware of any liability, this means either there is no liability or, in any event, almost certainly the church has no intention of making any claim. It is quite usual for sellers to refuse to pay for a policy that they will not benefit from, and in most cases the buyers accept this and are also unwilling to pay for a policy that they, quite understandably consider unnecessary, mortgage lenders do not insist on it and it is normally acceptable for the solicitors to "qualify" their certificate of title to say that a chancel check search reveals potential chancel repair liability but the solicitors' enquiries lead them to conclude that actually it is extremely unlikely there is any liability and they therefore advise that the transaction should go ahead without the chancel repair insurance. The solicitors will not be held to be negligent if they are wrong as they have drawn their clients' attention to the matter and have not certified that there is no liability.