CHANCEL REPAIRS Could cost you lots

[Pliny the Penuriosus]

Pommy the press office couldn't be more wrong. There has recently been a major case which went all the way to the HOL in which the party lost their case against the Church after refusing to pay the Chancel Repair Charge.

 

The repair bill together with their legal fees may well bankrupt them.

 

Also it's not just up to the church whether or not to claim for Chancel repairs. When the church makes an application for funds from English Heritage H.E. insists that the church 1st establish if there is any possibility of a Tithe Tenant or Tenants paying for the repair before they will even consider making a grant.

 

If the solicitor extends his enquirers beyond there being a potential to there is but it's unlikely the church will claim means the property will not be able to be insured.

 

Also such a greater risk will have to registered at the Land Registry thereby doing the work of the Church for them.

 

Sellers will never benefit from such a policy as it's not transferable. Its up to the buyer to purchase the insurance.

 

Also if a solicitor does find there is a potential risk & doesn't recommend insurance then they are laying themselves open to later litigation

[pommymike]

Pliny,

In Aston Cantlow PCC v Wallbank, the chancel repair liability was mentioned in the title deeds, so the court said that Mr and Mrs Wallbank must have known about it. However they thought the church would never claim. The C of E Press Office is saying that it is unaware of any case where a claim has been made against people who bought without knowing of the liability. It has not actually said such claims cannot or should never be made but it seems to acknowledge that it would be thought unfair to do so.

Mr William Fittall the General Secretary of the Synod however mentioned in answer to a question a few years ago that the principle was "let the buyer beware" and that solicitors ought to be able to make searches and enquiries and discover the liability if it exists. I think the Press Office statement recognises that this attitude is unreasonable as the results of searches are not conclusive. If no claims have ever been made for decades, even though the chancel has needed repairs, which have been paid for by the PCC, the liability could have lapsed under the Limitation Act. I agree that solicitors have to be very careful what advice they give, but if they advise they give clear advice that there is a very slight risk, which is correct, and clients accept this, they are not guilty of negligence if the risk does arise.

[DonnyG]

Another member asked this question in the insurance section but I thought that this is so important to many people without them realizing it that I would start a specific thread to try & bring it everyones attention.

 

Before You read on if anyone thinks this is a windup then I strongly suggest they see their legal advisor asap particularly if they are buying a house

 

As you will note it involves the church's ancient right to demand payment from the parish for chancel repairs.

 

Re: Chancel Repair Liability

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesBooker

I've recently got a property pack for the house we're trying to buy and my conveyencer got a report from a company called ChancelCheck. The report says that my house is 'located within the historical boundary of a parish which continues to have a potential chancel repair liability based upon historical parish boundary data...'

 

They then proceed to try and sell me some insurance against any possible bill from the local church for repairs!

 

Has anyone heard of this and is it for real or just another way to sell insurance to the paranoid? It seems a bit extraordinary that in 2006 the church could demand money from the community.

 

 

Above was the question & below was my answer............

 

It most certainly is for real & I strongly advise you to take out the insurance. If in doubt go here

 

http://www.peterboroughdiocesanregistry.co.uk/chancels.html

 

http://property.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,14051-2267145,00.html

 

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld200203/ldjudgmt/jd030626/aston-1.htm

 

I know all about this as since the ruling my wife now conducts these searches for her clients as matter of course.

 

As you will see form the above links this right of the church has come to particular attention because of the litigation when a family inherited a home & later they received a demand from the local parish church for, I think it was about £10,000 (correction £100.000) for chancel repairs.

 

They refused on principal & fought it all the way to the House of Lords. They lost so not only did they have to pay up they also left themselves with a huge legal bill which greatly exceeded the value of their property which I understand they had to sell. I also recall they talked in the press of going bankrupt

 

That's the bad news the good news (if you can call it that) is that the church must register all property that may be subject to such a charges by the year 2013. The church are spending over £500,000 & have set up a special department to see that all properties at risk are registered. They recently advertised for staff in the Law Gazette

 

The definition for a liable property are those that are within a medieval parish boundry. Even newly built properties can & will be affected.

 

Needless to say my home (built in 1985) has been checked out & appears in the clear. Nevertheless we are still going to insure. The premium depends on the value of the property but I understand starts at £58 + vat for 25 years cover & I consider it a small price to pay for peace of mind.

 

Thanks for this! We have had the same feedback from our solicitors as Mr Booker. Fortunately the vendor will pay for an insurance policy. But the whole thing does seems a bit arcaic.

[DonnyG]

We are in the process of selling our house and our solicitors have informed us that a chancel search has revealed that our house is the boundary of a parish with chancel repairs. The buyers solicitors are now asking us to pay indemnity insurance to protect the buyers - is this in our best interests to secure the sale or should we inform the buyer we are not prepared to pay????????

 

This is weird! You should not have to pay. As I posted above the people who are selling the house we are buying have agreed to pay the insurance!

[mrswotty]

This is doing my head in. I'll try to keep it brief.

My mum died last December. Everything was put in the hands of solicitors. It should all have been fairly straightforward - nice simple will and no family disputes. A man comes along to buy the house. No chain involved. Today the executor has rung me up to say that he has had a letter from the solicitor which contains the phrase "the house lies on the historical boundary of a parish which still has a chancel repair liability" and suggesting that we need to pay £100.88.

Why? This house isn't really mine. Should I just pay to be on the safe side? It's not a lot of money in comparison to the value of the house anyway.

[JonCris]

Are they asking you to pay the COST of the insurance as it has ro be taken out by the purchaser/new owner.

 

Whilst you may not want to, all you have to do is agree to reduce the selling price by that amount. I suspect if you want a speedy sale that it what you will have to do.

 

Also you never know but if you delay the sale you might find yourself or the estate having to pay for a HIPS

[DonnyG]

Once again you should NOT have to pay anything up front. If an insurance is due this can be paid after completion. OR as in our case, the vendor may offer to pay if you ask .

[Blondie6292]

My solicitor has now asked me to specify how big the property is. The Indemnity policy states the premium payable is dependant on the acreage of the property. I have already advised it is less than an acre but she wants me to specify.

 

How can i confirm how big the property is short of going round to the vendors with a tape measure!?! and they will wonder why i need to measure the area of land?

 

The only thing i can think is to either take approx measurements from the details on the Estate agents advert (where there are room measurements and garden measurements) or do I go straight to the estate agent and ask them to provide measurements from back of garden to end of driveway?

 

anyone else had same problem??

[Pliny the Penuriosus]

Blonie sorry but your solicitor appears a bit of an ijit.

 

The actual measurement/size of the property is a question she should be putting direct to the vendors. solicitor/conveyancer, not you.

 

If you try & work it out, make a mistake & it later becomes an issue you will not be indemnified as it will be your fault not the vendors.

 

As to your suggestion about accompanying the vendor whilst they measure, my advice is take no active part whatsoever for the reasons I have already stated. Get involved & if it later goes pear shaped you may find any damages claim greatly weakened

[Blondie6292]

If i have the vendors number is it not wise to just contact him directly to get measurements without disclosing its for chancel repair liability? If i ask my solicitor to raise this as a query this will put the exchange back another week.....and i don't see how me asking vendor directly will be any different from solicitor asking vendor.....measurements will still be the same?!

[Blondie6292]

also I am buying a small terraced house so there is no way the property is over an acre? i need to stipulate size of property as the insurance is calculated on acreage........

[pommymike]

Blondie,

The premium for a ChancelSure policy is the same whatever the size of the property, up to 5 acres.

One acre is 4,840 square yards, and a typical terraced house plot is about

20 feet x 100 ft, or 222 square yards, so I think all you have to say to your solicitor is that the acreage is a lot less than 5 acres.

Your solicitor should have sent you a copy of the Land Registry plan of the property which is drawn to a scale of 1/1250. A typical terraced house plot which measures roughtly 20 feet x 100 feet, or about 6 metres x 30 metres, would be about 5 mm x 24 mm on the plan.

If it was a square of 5 acres it would be 155 yards or 142 metres square, so each side would measure about 114 mm on the plan.

Most of the premium charged is for admin costs, and it makes very little difference to the insurers how large the plot is, as the actual insurance element of the premium is tiny.

The fact that the insurers charge the same premium for a typical terraced house as for 5 acres (which is about 100 times greater) is an indication of the very low level of risk.

[Pliny the Penuriosus]

Blondie the reason you employ professionals to conduct the transaction for you is to ensure that everything is done correctly & should it not be you have an indemnified professional from which to seek recompense.

 

Should you undertake any of the searches etc yourself then you can't expect to be completely indemnified by your conveyancer for any incorrect info you have provided.

 

Your desire to save a week could cost you dear in the long run

[kevs3d]

Hello,

 

We are looking to purchase a property that came back "positive" on the quick Chancel Search (the £15 one). We then proceeded to the full search (doh, before i found this forum! ) and the property _is_ liable. However, we have the full info from the detailed search that enabled me to make the liability calculation:

 

Fraction liability charge: 1/281875

 

Plot 129 = £2 3s 6d = 522p (old pence)

 

TOTAL = Repair Cost * 522/281875

 

Using Google Maps, it looks like the plot we are in has approx 300-400 properties in it. So would I be right in saying that any total repair cost would be split across the properties in the plot? So given the above calculation and assuming all properties liable, then:

 

Repair Cost Payment Charge for plot

=========== =======================

£20,000 £37.37

£50,000 £92.60

£200,000 £370.27

£500,000 £920.60 / 300 = £3 per house

 

The last example shows the cost split across 300 properties. So if i'm correct (am I?) then it's not worth getting insurance anyway for such a small charge!

 

Thanks,

 

Kevin

[JonCris]

kev no!

 

I was under that impression until another poster pointed out that owners are jointly & severally liable for the repairs. I checked & found they are correct

[kevs3d]

Oh. But doesn't that mean the church would receive x100's more money than the repair actually cost? I.e. if all 300 homes in a plot have to each pay the full amount for the plot?

[JonCris]

Of course not

 

It means they can ask all of the owners for a contribution but in the event some cant pay they can come to any other owner remaining for payment

[pommymike]

In reply to Kevin's post, the record of ascertainments he is describing would mean that about 150,000 individual houses are affected in the parish. As there has already been an apportionment, any individual would only in theory be responsible for paying for his field of say 300 houses and the joint and several liability only applies within fields. In other words you might be responsible for paying £900 and collecting £3 from each of the other 299 houses but you would not be responsible for paying the whole £500,000 for 150,000 houses.

It would be impossible for the church to contemplate registering against 150,000 titles in one parish, so as you say, the risk seems small. If you keep the property until 13 October 2013, and no registration has occurred you will be able to sell free of any liability.

[JonCris]

Correct pommy but if you wait until it is registered you won't be able to get insurance at any price which would effect the value

[RosyPosy]

Well my head is spinning now! Just found out that the house we are currently buying is potentially liable for chancel repairs. But I'm quite confused. I wonder if anyone can help???

1. I understand that if we search further and find that we would be liable for repair costs, then we lose the opportunity to insure ourselves. What happens after 25 years, when the insurance runs out? Also, what will happen in 2013, when churches have finished registering - presumably, even then we would not be able to find out if our house is 'safe' or not?

2. It seems, after searching the web, that this legislation has only recently been brought to the surface. I'm quite happy to pay the insurance premium, but my worry is that if, say in 10 years time, we want to sell, then our insurance becomes void and that the premium has gone up considerably or we become uninsurable and are unable to sell our house? How likely is this?

It's making me want to pull out of buying our house!

3. However, looking at the list of diocese churches in the country, surely virtually every house would be in a potential area for chancel repairs? There are so many churches in even a small area. And if so, then surely it is not a significant worry?

4. The founder of chancelcheck is probably very happy with himself - making a tidy profit on insurance premiums and searches! How can the government let this happen?

[DonnyG]

Well my head is spinning now! Just found out that the house we are currently buying is potentially liable for chancel repairs. But I'm quite confused. I wonder if anyone can help???

1. I understand that if we search further and find that we would be liable for repair costs, then we lose the opportunity to insure ourselves. What happens after 25 years, when the insurance runs out? Also, what will happen in 2013, when churches have finished registering - presumably, even then we would not be able to find out if our house is 'safe' or not?

2. It seems, after searching the web, that this legislation has only recently been brought to the surface. I'm quite happy to pay the insurance premium, but my worry is that if, say in 10 years time, we want to sell, then our insurance becomes void and that the premium has gone up considerably or we become uninsurable and are unable to sell our house? How likely is this?

It's making me want to pull out of buying our house!

3. However, looking at the list of diocese churches in the country, surely virtually every house would be in a potential area for chancel repairs? There are so many churches in even a small area. And if so, then surely it is not a significant worry?

4. The founder of chancelcheck is probably very happy with himself - making a tidy profit on insurance premiums and searches! How can the government let this happen?

 

Hi, we had the same problem. Just pay the one-off insurance premium. It's HIGHLY unlikely that you'll have to pay more. And I think moves are afoot to abolish the whole thing. Don't worry.

[pommymike]

As I mentioned in my posts dated 29 March and 24 May, the legal position is very unsatisfactory and it is a good idea to write to your MP about it, and sign the petition on the No 10 Downing Street web site.

 

If enough people do this the Government will be forced to act. With a new set of Ministers at the Ministry of Justice whoever was blocking leglisation is unlikely to be still in post.

 

You can get "in perpetuity" chancel check insurance, which is slightly more expensive.

[RosyPosy]

Thank you!

 

Pommymike: Have already signed the petition on the Downing St website - there are 810 signatures there at the moment - how many do they need to have until they will act?

[pommymike]

RosyPost

That is good. I think there need to be about 10,000 signatures before the PM will pay much attention.

However letters to MPs could have more effect.

[DonnyG]

Just an addition to my earlier post. We were lucky enough that the vendors paid the £100 insurance premuim to protect us from any future Chancel Repairs.

Oddly enough it is just our road that is affected if a bill from the church was to appear one day.

Well worth the 100 sheets for the protection especially if you can get the vendor to pay!!!