CHANCEL REPAIRS Could cost you lots

[JonCris]

Another member asked this question in the insurance section but I thought that this is so important to many people without them realizing it that I would start a specific thread to try & bring it everyones attention.

 

Before You read on if anyone thinks this is a windup then I strongly suggest they see their legal advisor asap particularly if they are buying a house

 

As you will note it involves the church's ancient right to demand payment from the parish for chancel repairs.

 

Re: Chancel Repair Liability

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesBooker

I've recently got a property pack for the house we're trying to buy and my conveyencer got a report from a company called ChancelCheck. The report says that my house is 'located within the historical boundary of a parish which continues to have a potential chancel repair liability based upon historical parish boundary data...'

 

They then proceed to try and sell me some insurance against any possible bill from the local church for repairs!

 

Has anyone heard of this and is it for real or just another way to sell insurance to the paranoid? It seems a bit extraordinary that in 2006 the church could demand money from the community.

 

 

Above was the question & below was my answer............

 

It most certainly is for real & I strongly advise you to take out the insurance. If in doubt go here

 

http://www.peterboroughdiocesanregistry.co.uk/chancels.html

 

http://property.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,14051-2267145,00.html

 

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld200203/ldjudgmt/jd030626/aston-1.htm

 

I know all about this as since the ruling my wife now conducts these searches for her clients as matter of course.

 

As you will see form the above links this right of the church has come to particular attention because of the litigation when a family inherited a home & later they received a demand from the local parish church for, I think it was about £10,000 (correction £100.000) for chancel repairs.

 

They refused on principal & fought it all the way to the House of Lords. They lost so not only did they have to pay up they also left themselves with a huge legal bill which greatly exceeded the value of their property which I understand they had to sell. I also recall they talked in the press of going bankrupt

 

That's the bad news the good news (if you can call it that) is that the church must register all property that may be subject to such a charges by the year 2013. The church are spending over £500,000 & have set up a special department to see that all properties at risk are registered. They recently advertised for staff in the Law Gazette

 

The definition for a liable property are those that are within a medieval parish boundry. Even newly built properties can & will be affected.

 

Needless to say my home (built in 1985) has been checked out & appears in the clear. Nevertheless we are still going to insure. The premium depends on the value of the property but I understand starts at £58 + vat for 25 years cover & I consider it a small price to pay for peace of mind.

[caro]

I seem to remember seeing a case on our local TV news about a house where the owners were liable for church repairs. It was something in excess of £100,000 for one householder from memory, so it is obviously a big problem for those affected. I would have thought that if a proper search was done in the first place into this specific area as you suggest, then the insurance would not be needed.

 

Seems to me like a nice little earner for the insurance companies, for something that 99.9% of people will not need.

 

It is worth making people aware of though so thank you for that.

[JonCris]

I seem to remember seeing a case on our local TV news about a house where the owners were liable for church repairs. It was something in excess of £100,000 for one householder from memory, so it is obviously a big problem for those affected. I would have thought that if a proper search was done in the first place into this specific area as you suggest, then the insurance would not be needed. You can have a search done for £10 +vat but I'm assuming that the any search has shown there is a risk or that like me the owner has decided to eliminate the risk for the next 25 years.

 

Seems to me like a nice little earner for the insurance companies, for something that 99.9% of people will not need.

 

Your probably correct but we all reluctantly purchase insurance on the assuption we aren't going to need it. The chancel search states that there is a possibilty that the property might be liable as it appears to be within a ancient parish boundry. Also if the church does not make a claim on you then you have purchased insurance you don't appear to need.

 

It's the same with car insurance, we dont think we'll ever need it because we are all expert drivers & it's everyone else who have accidents, but we buy it because we have to.

 

Also as the 2013 deadline nears for registration & more & more properties are registered by the church the premuim on those properties will no doubt increase as there will be a greater perceived risk of a claim.

 

I expect & hope that this Chancel risk will become a normal part of the buildings cover we are required to purchase when we buy our property thereby whilst probably causing a small rise in the overall building costs premuim reducing the overall cost for chancel repairs insurance

 

It is worth making people aware of though so thank you for that.

Quite

[caro]

I was under the impression that these cases were ancient law and only applied to very old properties. Granted more cases will come out of the woodwork, but thcase I saw was on one property which I think was on church land, not others within the parish boundary. Is there a need for this insurance for modern properties? You will have worked out I am not an expert in this area.

[JonCris]

I was under the impression that these cases were ancient law and only applied to very old properties. Granted more cases will come out of the woodwork, but thcase I saw was on one property which I think was on church land, not others within the parish boundary. Is there a need for this insurance for modern properties? You will have worked out I am not an expert in this area.

 

Let me make it clear I am not promoting any insurance product. In fact I detest insurance companies with a passion as I spend much of my life fighting them on behalf of victims. I detest their constant squalid attempts to avoid paying victims particularly in the case of so called PPI. Many moons ago I used to work for insurance companies & I have to say there has been a complete change in their attitude. In my day we felt a moral duty which was encouraged to deal with claims involving physical hardship promptly. So having had my rant about insurers & telling you there is no love lost between us I advise the following......any property new or old within the parish boundry can be liable. It goes back to the old tithe system & refers to the plot of land not what is built on it.

You will know there a tithe barns throughtout the country which are protected structures. The location of these give a clear indication that such a liabilty exists to those properties/land within 1 mile. You could own an empty field & still be liable

 

I believe one of the links I provided refers to a new property in Brighton where the seller received a demand from the buyers lawyers to pay £200 for chancel repair insurance.............read on

 

http://property.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,14051-2267145,00.html

 

Also very important to know is if your conveyencer does your search direct with the public record & discovers there is a risk it will have to registered at the Land Registry thereby doing the church's job for them. Also you won't be able to obtain insurance

[Rich44]

Thats disgusting I would rather sell the house and move than give the church my hard earned money.

 

Some people may take comfort from organised religion and fair play to those that do, I dont however and personally I see most of the the worlds problems are caused by peoples over zealous views and opinions on something that we have no way of ever proving one way or another and as such I choose to not support a single one of them as is I believe my human rights.

 

I'm not blaming any particular group or religion or anything like that its just my view that we would probably be better off without any of them, but then again we would probably just find another excuse to blow the crap out of each other sadly

 

I don't believe but I would defend anyone elses right to believe in whatever they want to as long as theyre not hurting anyone doing so

[caro]

Thats disgusting I would rather sell the house and move than give the church my hard earned money.

 

Problem is Rich who would buy it if the church was after the owner for money. Another reason for insurance.

[Rich44]

I meant if I found out that this could happen I would think seriously about moving rather than waiting for the bill to come in

[JonCris]

I meant if I found out that this could happen I would think seriously about moving rather than waiting for the bill to come in

 

The problem with that is the buyers conveyencer would instruct the search be done & upon discovering the risk existed ask you as the seller to either reduce the price pro rata or pay for the buyer to insure. Either way it's the same'

[Rich44]

Not really if you're moving then you're only liable for the insurance/charge once not to mention if the buyers really want the house then they will buy the insurance if not it goes back on and someone else would come along eventually.

 

Based on logic then your argument is sound but people rarely do things by logic you know what theyre like they see somewhere and fall in love with it etc.

 

You could always argue that the house was priced accordingly anyway

[JonCris]

Read the Brighton link I provided the seller was asked to pay the £200 premuim as would you if you sold a property which was found to be at risk during the buyers chancel searches.

[JonCris]

I'm posting the following again as I have just heard that after a search which revealed a "potential" liability the buyer has instructed their conveyancer to visit the public records office at Kew to confirm the liability.

This as a big big mistake & here’s why

If your conveyancer does your search direct with the public record & discovers there is a liabilty as apposed to a "potential" liability it will have to be registered at the Land Registry thereby doing the church's job for them. Also you won't be able to obtain insurance

[fedupofthat]

Hi! I'm in the position of selling/buying and my solicitor sent me one of these chancel repair liability things. Though he was having a laugh! BUT, I looked on net to get info. Still not positive but think I've got the jist HOWEVER???????????? This insurance company CHANCELCHECK? They will do a search for you for a fee, IF it comes back that the house you are buying IS one of those affected they wo'nt insure you. BUT if you dont ask for the search and just insure against it, whats to stop them doing the search anyway? Because lets face it NO insurance company will insure against a bad risk will they? After all they have the database that they do the searches with.

[fedupofthat]

Im back with more questions on chancel repairs. I've been having a discussion on this........ ???????????????? If the church asked somebody for £100,000 for repairs, Are they the only people to be asked? If the church knew that those people had property that was subject to the law did they also claim from other people in the area? if one house in a street is subject then surely there are others. Also what will happen if the church decides to demand payment from a non christian faith? and somebody suggested......... can we pay the church with chicken and corn, as the law is so ancient, and if we have to sell our homes to pay the church, can we then throw ourselves to the mercy of the church?

MORE.....Do the local government come under this law? as there must be roads, council buildings on this land, do we have to pay up again when the local council get a bill from the church? these questions are numerous and have the house of lords actually given answers to them or can they only deal with one issue at a time?

It is a can of worms. Now I'm having second thoughts about purchasing the property I wanted to buy.

[JonCris]

Hi! I'm in the position of selling/buying and my solicitor sent me one of these chancel repair liability things. Though he was having a laugh! BUT, I looked on net to get info. Still not positive but think I've got the jist HOWEVER???????????? This insurance company CHANCELCHECK? They will do a search for you for a fee, IF it comes back that the house you are buying IS one of those affected they wo'nt insure you. BUT if you dont ask for the search and just insure against it, whats to stop them doing the search anyway? Because lets face it NO insurance company will insure against a bad risk will they? After all they have the database that they do the searches with.

 

WRONG

When a search is undertaken on a property by the insurance company & it is found to have a potential risk, the important term is potential, then you can insure against it becoming a definite risk.

 

The only means by which you could find out if the property is within a medieval parish boundry & definitely as risk would be by doing a search of the public records. If you did that & discovered it is at risk then you won't get insurance & you would be required to register that risk with the Land Regsitry.

 

http://www.peterboroughdiocesanregistry.co.uk/chancels.html

[fedupofthat]

Thanks for that jonchris. suppose that means theres no point in me trying to do the search myself then.

[JonCris]

Correct!.....Its a case of the less you know the better.

 

e.g. When you insure your car the insurer takes a number of risk factors into account such as age, car, driving history & then deterimines if they will take you on & at what premuim. If you also told them that there is a very real risk that you WILL have a fault accident then they would rightly reject you as too great a risk

[Struthitsruth]

JonCris - this is a brilliant thread, we found it just as we were scratching our heads over a letter from our conveyancer on precisely the same subject as JamesBooker. We are still agog ! Thanks for your very helpful and informative posts.

 

Now, if I understand correctly, our solicitor is telling us that the house we are proposing to purchase has a potential liability which she has identified through ChancelCheck. If we buy the house, and at some point between now and 2013 the house is registered by the parish, it will then become a registered liability. So even if we, (or indeed the vendor purchases on our behalf,) have purchased insurance cover for 25 years, there will be a renewal date some years ahead at which point insurance may not be available. Then the house we bought may not look such an attractive prospect to another purchaser. ??

 

In short, is the best way to avoid this problem, to avoid buying the house in the first place ? We like the house, but not enough to saddle ourselves with a lemon in years to come. It really stinks and I feel we would be doing ourselves a favour to keep well clear. Or is this just paranoia ?

[JonCris]

You raise a good point. As you have a solicitor I suggest you put that Q to her & she can take it up with Chancel Check

 

The chances of you being required to pay for Chancel repairs are still quite slim & I suspect the insurers will make a commercial decision & at some future point offer cover even for registered property. However I have no doubt that the premiums demanded will reflect the increased risk as they percieve it.

[Struthitsruth]

Hmmm. Thanks for the prompt reply.

 

This rather puts me in mind of flood risk. When a property appears on the Environment Agency Flood Risk map it may well be insurable at a reasonable price depending on the 'commercial decision' of the insurer. However, once a claim has been made for flood damage, the same insurer may very well suggest that you take your business elsewhere in future. By then of course, there's almost nowhere else to go.

 

I would welcome any further opinions on the subject of parishes pursuing householders for repair costs. I'll come back and post our decision regarding the house purchase at some point, too.

 

[JonCris]

I agree & I would never purchase a property where there is risk of flooding of which there will be many more if Prescott gets his way.

 

As for asking about parishes pursuing for payment is a bit like asking how longs a peice of string. At the time of asking there are so many imponderable, such as what is the local vicars view & what happens if there is a change of vicar. I strongly suggest you take advice from your solicitor. At least if they get it wrong you have someone to sue.

[Struthitsruth]

Fair 'nuff and 'Nuff said for now. Opinions are all I'm looking for here, and we're bound to take a legal opinion from soltr next up.

 

The thot plickens...

 

All the same most helpful, and thanks for your time.

[willowwood]

Can anyone help with this one - we are buying a half-acre property close to an ancient church in rural Suffolk. Our Solicitor has offered to do a Chancel Repair charge search, costing £75. This is more than the minimum cost of a 25 year insurance policy, so it seems sensible just to buy the policy and not worry about whether the property is actually subject to the charge or not. However, the specialists who offer searches and insurance, such as Chancel Check, will not deal directly with individuals, only through Solicitors and other professionals. The local office of our current insurers, NFU Mutual, say they have never heard of this issue. Does anyone have advice on how to deal with this problem economically?

[JonCris]

I'm surprised that the NFU haven't heard of this..but if you go back to the beginning of this thread your answers are already there

[Struthitsruth]

The solicitor acting for us has charged £11.75 for a Chancel Check report,

a copy of the Chancel Repair Liability Guidance Notes from Chancel Check (Chancel Liability Services Ltd) and a list of their insurance policy premiums. It says that ChancelSure insurance can be ordered on-line at www.clsl.co.uk. Have you checked there and can you confirm that registering an account is for solicitors only ? We phoned and spoke directly to Chancel Liability Services Ltd to ask for more information, which they were happy to supply. We have not tried to obtain insurance at this stage. Hope this helps.